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[F34R]

America is a country where there are more guns than people. The latter point cannot be their default handling of a situation where they've been told about a gun.

You can have reservations about a person having a gun because that's what you're told, but you don't have to use the same ideology that being told someone has a gun and they actually have a gun or not is the same thing.

There should be a law that if a person is brandishing a gun or something thst looks like a gun, u can shjoot to kill. But if it's a blunt weapon and or a knife or machete, thst you must use non lethal means to disarm the bandit.


Like if someone is holding a knife in sure a taser would force them to drop the knife n shit

It's different in a lot of states here in the US. South Carolina has requirements that there has to be a reasonable threat assessment,. If a suspect had a gun, and was holding it at his side, we can not legally shoot someone based on that. Even if they say they will kill us, and that gun stays at their side, we can not shoot them. Once they start to raise that weapon, then use of deadly force is legal.

Those other weapons you listed are deadly weapons. You don't downgrade your response. Look up "Use of force continuum".

 

[Two Words]

There should be a law that if a person is brandishing a gun or something thst looks like a gun, u can shjoot to kill. But if it's a blunt weapon and or a knife or machete, thst you must use non lethal means to disarm the bandit.


Like if someone is holding a knife in sure a taser would force them to drop the knife n shit

This is incredibly naive.

 

[Zoe]

All police should have access to tasers.

They don't though.

 

[F34R]

All police should have access to tasers.

I agree. It took us a while to get them. Even then, we only got two. You'd be surprised at how underfunded police departments can be. Training and equipment is a premium.

We had to share radios and cars until there was a shooting at a local fast food place. Officers were called in to help find the suspects, but hell, there wasn't enough radios to go around and officers were in their own vehicles patrolling, setting up a perimeter, etc.

After that, they got enough radios for each officer and we still didn't have enough cars. That took another few years. Still training, and other equipment was luck of the draw.

 

[Principate]

Might get a cut on the arm? You can easily kill someone with a knife. It would be ideal if they have some non-lethal measures like a taser or something but this was a seemingly highly dangerous situation.

This is true but police the UK deal with knife crime non-lethally all the time. It's literally their bread and butter violent crime. This a training, equipment and a lack of willingness issue more than anything.

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

I agree. It took us a while to get them. Even then, we only got two. You'd be surprised at how underfunded police departments can be. Training and equipment is a premium.

We had to share radios and cars until there was a shooting at a local fast food place. Officers were called in to help find the suspects, but hell, there wasn't enough radios to go around and officers were in their own vehicles patrolling, setting up a perimeter, etc.

After that, they got enough radios for each officer and we still didn't have enough cars. That took another few years. Still training, and other equipment was luck of the draw.

I don't think folks appreciate how underfunded most police units are. They see the military grade equipment pics which are the outliers and funded through other sources and think those resources could be reallocated into other areas such as training and preventative equipment. Also, non Americans don't really have an appreciateion for just how large this county is and how diverse the regions can be from one another. Police training and equipment and protocols are a local concern dictated by local mores and history. It is far easier and cheaper to train as some have suggested in the smaller geographic countries than it is here and create a more consistent police force. Unoftunatley we are very budget constrained here, particularly small towns and college campuses, so there is a lack of certain training that would likely be beneficial to everyone.

 

[F34R]

This is true but police the UK deal with knife crime non-lethally all the time. It's literally their bread and butter violent crime. This a training, equipment and a lack of willingness issue more than anything.

Education, training, and environment are the three major differences.

I don't think folks appreciate how underfunded most police units are. They see the military grade equipment pics which are the outliers and funded through other sources and think those resources could be reallocated into other areas such as training and preventative equipment. Also, non Americans don't really have an appreciateion for just how large this county is and how diverse the regions can be from one another. Police training and equipment and protocols are a local concern dictated by local mores and history. It is far easier and cheaper to train as some have suggested in the smaller geographic countries than it is here and create a more consistent police force. Unoftunatley we are very budget constrained here, particularly small towns and college campuses, so there is a lack of certain training that would likely be beneficial to everyone.

Yep. It's the difference between night and day when talking about UK/USA.

How many officers are in a 450 square mile area in the UK?

Take a look at these numbers.. smh

Metropolitan Police Service - 609 sq miles. Police force - 32, 000+ police officers.
Where I live - 557 sq miles. Police force - 30. THREE ZERO!!

Where I worked - 8 sq miles. officers - 8..
City of London - 1.1 sq miles. officers - 699!

 

[Rommel]

Read up on the Tueller Drill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

 

[J-Rzez]

Taser at 35 feet is far enough to pull your lethal should it not work.

A consumer grade taser got like ~15 feet.

Cool. Now actually use one. As someone who has, they're not accurate enough, and not assured to probe, especially due to clothing and angle.

Police lives matter less than civilian lives - they signed up to protect and serve.

They must be willing to put themselves at risk to save civilians (even unstable ones). Non-lethal takedown should have been attempted, even if it meant greater personal risk to the police.

I will give you credit that you came out and said what others won't say so blatantly. But you're wrong, and you're disgusting. Civilian lives matter as much, and I would give my life for one. But I would not forfeit my life for a criminal nor a unstable person who is unfit and can harm others then, or at a later time.

 

[J-Rzez]

I don't think folks appreciate how underfunded most police units are. They see the military grade equipment pics which are the outliers and funded through other sources and think those resources could be reallocated into other areas such as training and preventative equipment. Also, non Americans don't really have an appreciateion for just how large this county is and how diverse the regions can be from one another. Police training and equipment and protocols are a local concern dictated by local mores and history. It is far easier and cheaper to train as some have suggested in the smaller geographic countries than it is here and create a more consistent police force. Unoftunatley we are very budget constrained here, particularly small towns and college campuses, so there is a lack of certain training that would likely be beneficial to everyone.

The type of criminals we have here are different. Police have always been respected, but not as much as other countries.

There's departments that can't afford shelf life appropriate vests, and recycle firearms, let alone enough budget for target practice.

The tax payers chop police budgets all the time. They'll approve newer vehicles though with pretty wrap jobs so they don't look like an eye sore when they see them driving around though.

Another thing people don't realize is that while larger departments will fund training, act 120, etc, many officers actually PAID for act 120/training out of own pocket, like others did for their college degree.

 

[Weevilone]

You isolate the guy and use a couple cops with riot shields. There are plenty of video examples of cops around the world doing this and taking the suspect in alive. It's not rocket science.

LOL now we've gone from campus cops to full on real deal with riot shields. In this case you'd need a cop transplant before the incident was resolved.

There's a big difference between what you're describing, and what was on-site. They were likely not much more than glorified security guards.

 

[Jmanunknown]

So you're saying you would let the person stab you......to do what then? After you're stabbed to death and die who's to say they wouldn't find someone else to kill? You'd be a pretty useless cop.


That makes is suicide by cop. Calling 911 to report someone with a gun/weapon, and then when cops arrive you have said weapon in hand and are provoking them.

just call it what it really is assisted suicide or justifiable homicide. Suicide by cop makes no sense together because no other individual can commit suicide for another individual they can help in the process but its technically not suicide if another person takes another individuals life.

It becomes a semantics argument at some point. Is it not suicide if someone throws them self in front of a moving car?

You chose a poor example to try to even make a point. If someone throws themselves in front of a moving car its suicide. If someone else kills a person with a gun even if provoked that is not suicide that is a justifiable homicide or just homicide.
Its not semantics look up the definition of suicide no wait i'll do it for you just to save you some time

suicide- the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally

 

[Weevilone]

I'm not at all arguing the approach is different. Anyone with half a brain knows that. I'm arguing that shooting someone in the leg isn't an effective tactic that anyone does on a regular basis. Furthermore, I'm saying it shouldn't be done at all because it's a very high risk low reward means of disabling someone.

I'm sure most of those comments are simply coming from people who watch TV, but have never fired a hand gun.

 

[F34R]

just call it what it really is assisted suicide or justifiable homicide. Suicide by cop makes no sense together because no other individual can commit suicide for another individual they can help in the process but its technically not suicide if another person takes another individuals life.





You chose a poor example to try to even make a point. If someone throws themselves in front of a moving car its suicide. If someone else kills a person with a gun even if provoked that is not suicide that is a justifiable homicide or just homicide.
Its not semantics look up the definition of suicide no wait i'll do it for you just to save you some time

Read through:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

just call it what it really is assisted suicide or justifiable homicide. Suicide by cop makes no sense together because no other individual can commit suicide for another individual they can help in the process but its technically not suicide if another person takes another individuals life.





You chose a poor example to try to even make a point. If someone throws themselves in front of a moving car its suicide. If someone else kills a person with a gun even if provoked that is not suicide that is a justifiable homicide or just homicide.
Its not semantics look up the definition of suicide no wait i'll do it for you just to save you some time

No, there is literally a term and it's suicide by cop. Look up what you're talking about

 

[J-Rzez]

I'm sure most of those comments are simply coming from people who watch TV, but have never fired a hand gun.

Pretty much. I was graded as a pistol master and would have never thought to shoot a limb. But people just don't get it, and is why their opinion and thoughts could be easily dismissed when trying to be snarky on this.

Just saw a video on this, single shot. They gave the individual more than enough time.

People instead should be focused on why friends and family didn't give this individual the attention needed. Why doctors didn't treat them right.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Read up on the Tueller Drill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

People keep citing this and the 20ft statistic from it, but that only applies if the gun is holstered and it's clear terrain. In this scenario, there were two officers, both were already drawn on the student, and one of them had taken cover behind a barricade. Tueller no longer applies, at all.

Like, I fully understand that tasers have drawbacks, that "shoot for the leg" is generally not the right course of action, etc., but having watched the video, in this scenario I think there should have been a better course of action than killing an obviously mentally ill individual.

 

[Two Words]

People keep citing this and the 20ft statistic from it, but that only applies if the gun is holstered and it's clear terrain. In this scenario, there were two officers, both were already drawn on the student, and one of them had taken cover behind a barricade. Tueller no longer applies, at all.

Like, I fully understand that tasers have drawbacks, that "shoot for the leg" is generally not the right course of action, etc., but having watched the video, in this scenario I think there should have been a better course of action than killing an obviously mentally ill individual.

I think most people can agree that better actions could have taken place. The issue I have are those that either want police to do some CQC bullshit and disarm them as if they're Big Boss. And then you've got other people going as far as literally saying police lives matter less and thus they are obligated to risk their lives to save this person.

 

[Jmanunknown]

No, there is literally a term and it's suicide by cop. Look up what you're talking about

Omg for real I had no clue that suicide by cop was an actually thing. Its not like people actually use it without stopping to think if it actually makes any sense because no other person can commit suicide for another person. How about instead of trying to come off as smart and lecturing me you actually think critically about the bs that is suicide by cop.

Read through:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop

Really it may be the socially acceptable because cops are so reliable at killing in the US but I think the term is bs. It should be called assisted suicide or justifiable homicide. When a doctor helps someone commit suicide society does not call it suicide by doctor. if a plumber or soldier helped someone commit suicide society does not go suicide by plumber or suicide by solider.

 

[Yayate]

Pretty much. I was graded as a pistol master and would have never thought to shoot a limb. But people just don't get it, and is why their opinion and thoughts could be easily dismissed when trying to be snarky on this.

Just saw a video on this, single shot. They gave the individual more than enough time.

People instead should be focused on why friends and family didn't give this individual the attention needed. Why doctors didn't treat them right.

Why do you people keep ignoring the fact that various police forces around the world are trained to shoot legs?

 

[F34R]

Why do you people keep ignoring the fact that various police forces around the world are trained to shoot legs?

Show me the places where they are trained to shoot in the leg in deadly force situations please.

 

[Yayate]

Show me the places where they are trained to shoot in the leg in deadly force situations please.

https://www.politie.nl/themas/schietincident.html

Here's one. The police are allowed to shoot the torso in such a situation but they are not supposed to. They are explicitly trained to shoot the legs.

But this wouldn't count as self defense anyway because there were further non-lethal options to de-escalate that hadn't been taken.

 

[F34R]

https://www.politie.nl/themas/schietincident.html

Here's one. The police are allowed to shoot the torso in such a situation but they are not supposed to. They are explicitly trained to shoot the legs.

But this wouldn't count as self defense anyway because there were further non-lethal options to de-escalate that hadn't been taken.

So, in a deadly situation they are allowed to shoot in the torso. Got it. Further options? What other options?

 

[Yayate]

So, in a deadly situation they are allowed to shoot in the torso. Got it. Further options? What other options?

As quite literally listed on the site: first, they're supposed to de-escalate verbally, if this doesn't work, they then escalate to pepperspray, their baton or a police hound. Only at the very last possible moment are they allowed to draw their firearm, and then they should still first fire a warning shot. If they need to defend themselves or others, they are allowed to shoot the legs. Only if the danger is extremely immediate are they allowed to shoot the torso.

And regardless of how they shoot, if they shoot, the officer is investigated. If they followed all procedures they'll be acquitted because they acted in 'noodweer' (lit: required immediate defense). Shooting when they're not explicitly required to can be either noodweerexces or eigenrichting, depending on whether the use of force was just excessive/disproportionate or completely unnecessary.

 

[TheTurboFD]

So, in a deadly situation they are allowed to shoot in the torso. Got it. Further options? What other options?

Shooting the legs is a terrible idea no matter how many people try to spin it. If someone with a knife is coming at me the last thing I would want to do is look down and attempt to shoot his legs when center mass is the bigger target and faster to put down. People also don't seem to understand how fast a person with a knife can travel when rushing. I doubt a lot of users here would even process what's going on in that short of a time span.

 

[ChainedMaster]

I'm honestly shocked that people are criticizing police who shot someone brandishing a deadly weapon when they feared for their lives. Yes, they should be trained to handle it nonlethally, but Jesus Christ this isn't some human rights violation. This was a threat to their life.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Sucks that cops in the US are only taught to disarm with bullets. That's the bottom line.

Physical self defense must cost more to a police force or something.

People also don't seem to understand how fast a person with a knife can travel when rushing. I doubt a lot of users here would even process what's going on in that short of a time span.

We are talking cops though, who should be thoroughly trained and reminded in how to deal with these situations vs the average joe who wouldn't be training for nor facing these situations... likely ever.

 

[Yayate]

Shooting the legs is a terrible idea no matter how many people try to spin it. If someone with a knife is coming at me the last thing I would want to do is look down and attempt to shoot his legs when center mass is the bigger target and faster to put down. People also don't seem to understand how fast a person with a knife can travel when rushing. I doubt a lot of users here would even process what's going on in that short of a time span.

https://www.politie.nl/nieuws/2017/juli/24/04-politie-schiet-man-tweemaal-in-been.html

Politie shoots knife-brandishing man in the leg after trying and failing to subdue him with pepperspray and a warning shot. Two shots were fired, at the legs.

https://www.gelderlander.nl/achterh...eer-op-messenzwaaier-in-winterswijk~adf3d023/

Guy with two knives. First, they tried pepperspraying him but the extreme wind made this impossible. Second, they tried firing warning shots again, and it made him drop one of his knives, leading him to draw another one. Then he was shot in the legs, dragged to the hospital, then put in prison.

https://www.lindanieuws.nl/nieuws/politie-schiet-man-been-noordwijkerhout/

Officer retains enough strength of will to shoot a guy in the leg... while getting choked. He survived got sent to the hospital.

http://www.lc.nl/friesland/Man-in-H...lechten-politie-schiet-hem-neer-22465663.html

Guy with a chainsaw got shot in the legs. He got heavily injured but didn't die.

https://www.omroepwest.nl/media/22013/Politie-schiet-man-in-been-in-Den-Haag-Hij-luisterde-niet

Another guy shot in legs. Again, survived.


It seems to work just fine, really.

 

[TheTurboFD]

Sucks that cops in the US are only taught to disarm with bullets. That's the bottom line.

Physical self defense must cost more to a police force or something.

Yea lets get physical with a guy holding a knife...

https://www.politie.nl/nieuws/2017/juli/24/04-politie-schiet-man-tweemaal-in-been.html

Politie shoots knife-brandishing man in the leg after trying and failing to subdue him with pepperspray and a warning shot. Two shots were fired, at the legs.

https://www.gelderlander.nl/achterh...eer-op-messenzwaaier-in-winterswijk~adf3d023/

Guy with two knives. First, they tried pepperspraying him but the extreme wind made this impossible. Second, they tried firing warning shots again, and it made him drop one of his knives, leading him to draw another one. Then he was shot in the legs, dragged to the hospital, then put in prison.

https://www.lindanieuws.nl/nieuws/politie-schiet-man-been-noordwijkerhout/

Officer retains enough strength of will to shoot a guy in the leg... while getting choked. He survived got sent to the hospital.

http://www.lc.nl/friesland/Man-in-H...lechten-politie-schiet-hem-neer-22465663.html

Guy with a chainsaw got shot in the legs. He got heavily injured but didn't die.

https://www.omroepwest.nl/media/22013/Politie-schiet-man-in-been-in-Den-Haag-Hij-luisterde-niet

Another guy shot in legs. Again, survived.


It seems to work just fine, really.

Just because it luckily worked in a few instances doesn't make it any less stupid nor does that make it a regular occurrence . If you'd gamble your life to play hero then I don't know what to tell you. I'd rather put the threat down then play superman.

 

[faulty_fork]

Pretty much. I was graded as a pistol master and would have never thought to shoot a limb. But people just don't get it, and is why their opinion and thoughts could be easily dismissed when trying to be snarky on this.

Just saw a video on this, single shot. They gave the individual more than enough time.

People instead should be focused on why friends and family didn't give this individual the attention needed. Why doctors didn't treat them right.

Here's a rough translation from the Swedish police force official site in regards to gun use:

"If the police have to shoot a person, they should strive to just temporarily incapacitate the person. The shots should primarily be directed towards the legs, but if circumstances require, the police can shoot directly at the upper body - for example, if the threatening person is in close proximity and the attack comes fast."

https://polisen.se/Om-polisen/Sa-ar...enheter/Polisens-ratt-att-anvanda-skjutvapen/

It's not outlandish and a thing that our police force regularly pull off so I don't know why you keep acting like it's some insane tactic. Pretty much every news story I've seen where someone got shot in the leg by police led to them surviving, so I don't put much stock in these arguments saying that people are just as likely to bleed out from it either.

The encounter in the op is a typical situation where our police would have gone for a leg shot if they saw no other way of de-escalating the situation.

Yea lets get physical with a guy holding a knife...

Just because it luckily worked in a few instances doesn't make it any less stupid nor does that make it a regular occurrence . If you'd gamble your life to play hero then I don't know what to tell you. I'd rather put the threat down then play superman.

I could post many more instances of it working in Sweden too and I've yet to find any stories where the police got knifed or beaten because they didn't directly go for a center mass shot. They're properly trained to make the right decision and it leads to lives being saved.

 

[Yayate]

Yea lets get physical with a guy holding a knife...



Just because it luckily worked in a few instances doesn't make it any less stupid nor does that make it a regular occurrence . If you'd gamble your life to play hero then I don't know what to tell you. I'd rather put the threat down then play superman.

I'm not a police officer and I hope you aren't either, so how we would've reacted is completely irrelevant. This is not a 'luckily worked' thing, read the thread. If they fired anywhere else they'd be out of a job.

 

[ChainedMaster]

I'm not a police officer and I hope you aren't either, so how we would've reacted is completely irrelevant. This is not a 'luckily worked' thing, read the thread. If they fired anywhere else they'd be out of a job.

Shooting someone in the extremeties is extremely risky. Even I wouldn't condemn a practice of shooting center of mass. Gun are lethal weapons. If you fire your gun your intention should be to immediately incapacitate the threat.

 

[Yayate]

Shooting someone in the extremeties is extremely risky. Even I wouldn't condemn a practice of shooting center of mass. Gun are lethal weapons. If you fire your gun your intention should be to immediately incapacitate the threat.

But European officers seem to pull it off just fine, without killing anyone, with a large amount of consistency?

 

[ChainedMaster]

But European officers seem to pull it off just fine, without killing anyone, with a large amount of consistency?

Are the people in those links or statistics rushing at the police in those cases?

 

[Yayate]

Are the people in those links or statistics rushing at the police in those cases?

Did this person rush the police? I'm not going to watch a video of someone getting killed, but all the discussion here implies that they were approaching slowly enough for the officer to back off.

And yeah, a bunch of these cases involved the police using pepperspray first, so they had to get in range for that first.

I don't think the officer here did too much wrong, given how he must've not been trained for these sort of things, but this could've been resolved without any deaths if the officer was trained better.

 

[Carcetti]

Shooting someone in the extremeties is extremely risky. Even I wouldn't condemn a practice of shooting center of mass. Gun are lethal weapons. If you fire your gun your intention should be to immediately incapacitate the threat.

Yeah, people keep saying that but it's clearly not impossible since Euro police keep doing it. What you're repeating is basically a dogma.

 

[Cow Mengde]

I wasn't going to be harsh on the police in this situation, but then I see GAF's blue lives matter defense force out in droves, and I just have to shake my head.

Can't aim for the leg and need to shoot the center of mass? Rubber bullets? Pepper Spray their eyes? Tasers as most people suggested? Let's go over boards! How about tear gas if you can't aim for shit? Afraid the wind will blow the gas away? How about launching a net?

But what do I know. Maybe rubber bullets are made from the flesh of new born abies or something, so that's why they're not used often.

 

[Xe4]

Clearly suicide by cop. RIP to the kid, far too young to die, especially like that. Shame they didn't get the help they needed. Mental illness and suicidal ideations are no joke.

Yeah, people keep saying that but it's clearly not impossible since Euro police keep doing it. What you're repeating is basically a dogma.

I mean, police in America have talked down a guy with a knife or even taken other non lethal actions as well. But it depends heavily on the circumstances. Not to mention cherry picking examples is pretty easy to do no matter what situation you're talking about. You have to look at statistics and realize as well you're talking about wholly different countries with different threats posed.

I do think there could've been more done that didn't involve shooting the student. I'm sure most of the cops do too. But it's easy for me to say that sitting at my couch when there's not someone with a knife coming at me.

 

[CryptiK]

I wasn't going to be harsh on the police in this situation, but then I see GAF's blue lives matter defense force out in droves, and I just have to shake my head.

Can't aim for the leg and need to shoot the center of mass? Rubber bullets? Pepper Spray their eyes? Tasers as most people suggested? Let's go over boards! How about tear gas if you can't aim for shit? Afraid the wind will blow the gas away? How about launching a net?

But what do I know. Maybe rubber bullets are made from the flesh of new born abies or something, so that's why they're not used often.

1. No they are taught to aim for centre mass so its less likely to miss. Lots of variables can cause a missed shot, the person is running, the officer is under pressure. If they miss they could end up dead.

2.Rubber bullets still kill people. And Rubber bullets sometimes do not stop people. Drugs are a hell of a thing

3.Pepper spray, this does not disable the person, this makes them blind and does not stop them from swinging wildly

4. Tasers do not stop all people, tasers also still kill people.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcNTxZv8rhU

5.Tear gas the same as pepper spray

6. Launching a net? This isnt the looney toons mate this is real life.

I'm not a blue lives matter type of person, Im not from the US I also think your police force has a lot of garbage people. But its not as simple as "just taze them aye."

 

[MUnited83]

I wasn't going to be harsh on the police in this situation, but then I see GAF's blue lives matter defense force out in droves, and I just have to shake my head.

Can't aim for the leg and need to shoot the center of mass? Rubber bullets? Pepper Spray their eyes? Tasers as most people suggested? Let's go over boards! How about tear gas if you can't aim for shit? Afraid the wind will blow the gas away? How about launching a net?

But what do I know. Maybe rubber bullets are made from the flesh of new born abies or something, so that's why they're not used often.

No no no. You see, any approach other than savage cold blooded murder is a approach that only happens in Hollywood.

 

[jfkgoblue]

People who say "shoot them in the leg" have obviously never shot a handgun before. Even the best sharpshooters can't reliably hit a target perfectly beyond 15 feet, because they have such a short barrel, so you have to aim for the largest area to give you the best chance of hitting the target.

This isn't the movies where people can hit targets from 50 ft away with a handgun with perfect accuracy. You'd be lucky to hit someone standing still at all if you unloaded the magazine on him at that distance, much less hit your target perfectly while he's moving.

 

[rocketskates]

I wasn't going to be harsh on the police in this situation, but then I see GAF's blue lives matter defense force out in droves, and I just have to shake my head.

Can't aim for the leg and need to shoot the center of mass? Rubber bullets? Pepper Spray their eyes? Tasers as most people suggested? Let's go over boards! How about tear gas if you can't aim for shit? Afraid the wind will blow the gas away? How about launching a net?

But what do I know. Maybe rubber bullets are made from the flesh of new born abies or something, so that's why they're not used often.

Lol it's sad your response isn't fueled by your actual feelings but rather because if what people are saying in opposition of your feelings so you feel the need to confront them rather than stand by your own convictions.

Regardless,like you said, what do you know. Most of those things aren't even available for every single officer in every single situation, so they're left with what limited options they have.

A net??? Come on.

 

[OriginalNameGuy]

It doesn't matter if someone is small or skinny if they are armed. If I see a knife I'm not thinking gee he's only 150 pounds

 

[AntoneM]

2.Rubber bullets still kill people. And Rubber bullets sometimes do not stop people. Drugs are a hell of a thing

3.Pepper spray, this does not disable the person, this makes them blind and does not stop them from swinging wildly

4. Tasers do not stop all people, tasers also still kill people.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcNTxZv8rhU

5.Tear gas the same as pepper spray

See, we cant use less lethal means because they aren't perfect, so, obviously it's better to blow someone's guts out to make sure they die.

 

[jfkgoblue]

https://www.politie.nl/nieuws/2017/juli/24/04-politie-schiet-man-tweemaal-in-been.html

Politie shoots knife-brandishing man in the leg after trying and failing to subdue him with pepperspray and a warning shot. Two shots were fired, at the legs.

https://www.gelderlander.nl/achterh...eer-op-messenzwaaier-in-winterswijk~adf3d023/

Guy with two knives. First, they tried pepperspraying him but the extreme wind made this impossible. Second, they tried firing warning shots again, and it made him drop one of his knives, leading him to draw another one. Then he was shot in the legs, dragged to the hospital, then put in prison.

https://www.lindanieuws.nl/nieuws/politie-schiet-man-been-noordwijkerhout/

Officer retains enough strength of will to shoot a guy in the leg... while getting choked. He survived got sent to the hospital.

http://www.lc.nl/friesland/Man-in-H...lechten-politie-schiet-hem-neer-22465663.html

Guy with a chainsaw got shot in the legs. He got heavily injured but didn't die.

https://www.omroepwest.nl/media/22013/Politie-schiet-man-in-been-in-Den-Haag-Hij-luisterde-niet

Another guy shot in legs. Again, survived.


It seems to work just fine, really.

If the guy gets close enough that you can reliably aim for a specific body part, you are playing with your own life, just because it worked out in some cases, it doesn't mean it's the right way to go.

At a safe distance from a knife wielding criminal, you simply can't aim for a specific body part, no matter how good of a shot you are, that is why cops are taught to aim at center mass, it gives you the best chance to hit someone. Handguns aren't very accurate beyond 10-15 feet no matter who is pulling the trigger.

 

[Xe4]

See, we cant use less lethal means because they aren't perfect, so, obviously it's better to blow someone's guts out to make sure they die.

It's not that they can't be used (they can and should be), it's that they are, as you said, imperfect and cannot be used in every circumstance (and in many cases police, especially campus police don't have them on hand).

Rubber bullets for instance would be a good weapon for this scenario, but I highly doubt any cops had them on had and easily accessible.

And it's not about making sure they die, it's to ensure a dangerous suspect goes down without putting numerous police and civilian lives at risk while doing so. More proper training is needed obviously, but I don't doubt all the cops tried their best within limitations to try to talk the suspect down as a first priority.

 

[Yayate]

If the guy gets close enough that you can reliably aim for a specific body part, you are playing with your own life, just because it worked out in some cases, it doesn't mean it's the right way to go.

At a safe distance from a knife wielding criminal, you simply can't aim for a specific body part, no matter how good of a shot you are, that is why cops are taught to aim at center mass, it gives you the best chance to hit someone. Handguns aren't very accurate beyond 10-15 feet no matter who is pulling the trigger.

It's not that it just worked out in 'some cases'. If they shot center mass they would've been fired and could've been persecuted because they broke their training and possibly the law.

American police might be trained to aim for center mass, but at least Dutch and Swedish police are trained not to unless absolutely necessary.

Again, read:

https://www.politie.nl/themas/schietincident.html
https://polisen.se/Om-polisen/Sa-ar...enheter/Polisens-ratt-att-anvanda-skjutvapen/

 

[bosseye]

How many officers are in a 450 square mile area in the UK?

Take a look at these numbers.. smh

Metropolitan Police Service - 609 sq miles. Police force - 32, 000+ police officers.
Where I live - 557 sq miles. Police force - 30. THREE ZERO!!

Where I worked - 8 sq miles. officers - 8..
City of London - 1.1 sq miles. officers - 699!

What are those figures as a % of population? 32,000 police sounds like a lot but that 609 sq miles might encompass a few million people in the UK. Your 30 guys have a lot more ground to cover each, but potentially massively less people/potential incidents to deal with.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

I just feel like there has to be a middle ground here between

"can't use deadly force" and "use deadly force every fucking time"

Fuck man, give police spears for all I care. Plate mail and morningstar. Like, anything's better than a bullet buried in their chests.

 

[mAcOdIn]

1. No they are taught to aim for centre mass so its less likely to miss. Lots of variables can cause a missed shot, the person is running, the officer is under pressure. If they miss they could end up dead.

I still believe this should be considered a situational thing. I think in this case as slow as the kid was moving anyone with any firearm training should have been able to hit the legs if the kid was calmly walking towards them. I mean, the only real downside to going for the leg in this specific situation would be, might still accidentally kill the person, which is totally fine if you can purposefully do it anyways, might miss just as with any other shot which again should be fine because you're not dealing with someone with a gun also trained on you or someone else but a walking kid you should have time for a second, well several more shots really, and really, that's it.

I mean, there's totally situations where I don't think you can play around, if they also have a gun trained on you or another person please go for the safest shot, don't give them any more time to react than fate gives them. If they're so close you can't get a second shot I accept that, again go for your safest sure shot. If they have so much forward momentum they'll be on you even if they're hit then again take the safest best shot you can, if they're going to be on you better they be close to mortally wounded.

But there's also situations where I think this should totally be uncalled for too. If someone's walking around their momentum's not going to carry them 10 feet after being shot, come on now. And if your weapon's already trained on someone moving that slow you should be able to easily take another shot in the event you missed the first or if they shrug it off and keep coming.

Look at it this way, if your efforts failed and you still end up killing the person, well, if we're going to allow you to outright kill people we'll be "ok" with you failing in your attempt to not kill them to.

2.Rubber bullets still kill people. And Rubber bullets sometimes do not stop people. Drugs are a hell of a thing

And people have been killed from punches, choke holds, van rides, etc, etc, and yet no-one advocates just flat out killing people for every infraction because they may die anyways. This is just stupid.

If someone died accidentally from a rubber bullet what's the problem? If we're ok with just killing them, again, we should be ok with them accidentally dying in an honest attempt to save their lives.

As to the second part about them failing to stop people on that I agree. I think they should only be deployed when you have superior numbers and you have other people alongside you who can use lethal force if they don't work. I think it's a bad idea to expect them to be an officers first weapon in most situations because at the end of the day I'd rather the assailant die than the cop if that's what it would come down to.

3.Pepper spray, this does not disable the person, this makes them blind and does not stop them from swinging wildly

Sure, and if they don't freak out and get enraged and start swinging around feel free to then kill the person! Not everyone's on drugs with the intent to kill, I promise you some people will drop what they have and tend to their eyes.

4. Tasers do not stop all people, tasers also still kill people.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcNTxZv8rhU

Again, if someone accidentally dies from an honest attempt to save their life what's the problem?

5.Tear gas the same as pepper spray

And same reply as pepper spray too!

6. Launching a net? This isnt the looney toons mate this is real life.

I'm not a blue lives matter type of person, Im not from the US I also think your police force has a lot of garbage people. But its not as simple as "just taze them aye."

Coulda' fooled me.

What I mean by that is I'm always perplexed how one of the main arguments against trying non-lethal weapons is that sometimes people still die therefore we should just use lethal weapons anyways! Like what the fuck kind of argument is that? Only with police too, nobody says "this medical operation might save your life but you might die on accident, so, lets euthanize you instead!" Fucking absurd. Nobody watched the Eric Garner video and thought them using a choke hold was too dangerous for Mr. Garner and that the cops should have just shot him instead. Right?

Now, non-lethal weapons do have a time and place. I in no way expect an officer in a dangerous country like the United States to have a non-lethal weapon as his or her main weapon. Sorry guys. Yes I look at Europe with envy but I don't think we can be like Europe. More spread out than Europe. Probably have a stronger anti-getting caught sentiment among criminals due to harsher jail conditions and sentencing than Europe. Have WAY more guns on the street than Europe. Less access to healthcare and less chances to move up than Europe. I don't think we can keep everything else the same but turn around and give our cops batons and expect a good outcome. well, for anyone but the criminals. Not to say we couldn't become like Europe, we could, but we'd have to address all that other shit first.

My stance on non-lethal weapon use in this country remains that it should be done in a group setting where you have people ready to use lethal force in the event it fails.

There does get a point where people trot out such an insane list of gear they want a cop to have on them at all times that it does get ridiculous. I tend to think patrol officers should be light and have their gear short and simple. They're not Batman and I don't want them taking 5 minutes longer to respond to every call because they have to go to their trunk and grab a riot gun, don a gas mask, grab some kind of CS gas grenades, throw a bean bag gun around their shoulder, put their flashlight in their mouth, and just generally fumble around on their way to the location dropping shit as they go. Nor do I want them getting caught on everything as they go around, be overly encumbered if they need to run, or just have so many weapons that they can't realistically keep it all secured on themselves in public. Even in an ideal situation where every patrol car did have everything listed the first guys on the scene shouldn't be wasting their time getting it out. But at some point where an encounter lasts upwards of 30 minutes or more you do have to ask why somebody didn't have something, anything, else to try besides shooting them.

My main concern with rubber bullets is less that the person may still die and more that how many would die on accident by loading the wrong rounds into their gun? I mean, I guess you could carry a dedicated non-lethal gun and a dedicated gun for killing I question exactly where it'd go and whether it's worth replacing something else they carry with it and realistically I expect most to cheap out and just issue both types of ammunition for the same weapon which I think would be equally disastrous. Like that LA bank robbery was insane but imagine a few cops accidentally using rubber rounds on the jack asses or having less lethal rounds on their person and being forced to use rubber rounds on them as it's all they'd have left, or, imagine them thinking they've loaded non-lethal rounds into their weapon and killing someone on accident. That shit would happen.

So really, I think most of the non-lethal suggestions people have given should generally be the sort you could use because the situation allows you or another officer to go back to your vehicle and retrieve it or another unit to arrive with it.

Now in this situation I still think one of the officers should have had a taser and should have tried it before killing the person. Plenty of time, non-opened knife, slow moving target, if it works great if not, fine, kill the person. I also happen to think that yeah they should have felt comfortable taking a shot at the legs first before resorting to chest shots.

At a safe distance from a knife wielding criminal, you simply can't aim for a specific body part, no matter how good of a shot you are, that is why cops are taught to aim at center mass, it gives you the best chance to hit someone. Handguns aren't very accurate beyond 10-15 feet no matter who is pulling the trigger.

Do you honestly feel a trained individual can't reliably hit the legs of someone casually walking towards them? I've said it before but when someone's just walking forward the target's generally the same size as their chest, just really missing the arms! Look, the legs are just moving forward but occupy the same width at all times all that changes is the depth and if you pull the shot high you get them in their stomach or genitalia or some shit. It's a different request completely than trying to take a shot from the side or at a running target.