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[Flying_Phoenix]

I remember reading various articles stating that comic book sales were at an all-time high in the early 90's (I think it was '93 to be specific) while today they are practically at an all-time low. I'm curious to as of how this happened? Comic book films have never been so popular with movies like The Dark Knight breaking box-office records in its day to some films based on niche source material such as Kick-Ass reaching moderate success. I'm just curious to as of why comics didn't rise in popularity and instead went through rapidly declined?

I'm not a huge comic book kind of guy so I'm not really sure of the answer

Spoiler

obviously since I'm asking for it

just found it odd that superhero films are all the rage these days yet the source material is anything but.

 

[Mobius 1]

 

[BananaBomb]

I'm no manga fan, but is it just me or are American comics particularly terrible? The only good ones are completely insane and more like "art" than pulp comics.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

High quality scifi/fantasy in tv and hollywood?

 

[Dresden]

I'm no manga fan, but is it just me or are American comics particularly terrible? The only good ones are completely insane and more like "art" than pulp comics.

It's just you. Avoid the superhero crap for the most part, although there's a good one here and there. Invincible is one.

 

[blame space]

bastardized "kid's books" disguised as comics.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I'm no manga fan, but is it just me or are American comics particularly terrible? The only good ones are completely insane and more like "art" than pulp comics.

Prolly no more than the selection of mangas out there.

I don't know why personally. It may have to do with he internet or something. At least I'm getting more into comics

 

[Byakuya769]

comics got more expensive where other forms of entertainment (electronics) got cheaper in many ways.

 

[Averon]

People thought they could get rich quick collecting comics in the early '90s. Once the market collapsed and people didn't see the huge money they thought they'll get, they left the comics scene. Today, the most popular, non "event" comics sell around 30-50 thousand a month. Comics in the early '90s easily sold ten times that amount. And the mainstream comics (Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc...) approached one million sold a month.

 

[dream]

Stupid fucking embossed variant covers.

 

[GloveSlap]

A lot of the early 90s sales were collectors that only bought them because they thought they were going to be worth money. After the market crashed all the speculators ran away.

I don't think the emphasis on big boobs over writing did them any favors either. Not to mention competition from other more modern forms of entertainment.

 

[kmfdmpig]

comics got more expensive where other forms of entertainment (electronics) got cheaper in many ways.

Yeah. That's a good point. $3 or even $4 is a bit much for 22 pages of entertainment that can last anywhere from 10-20 minutes. That's not the best way to think about entertainment, but that's how people often do.

I wonder whether comics will find success in digital distribution as it should open up some interesting opportunities for them to sell at lower prices (much less overhead when you take out the paper, binding, shipping, etc....

 

[BlackGoku03]

I'm going off memory, so i may be wrong. I think it had to do something with printing way too many issues--collectables to sell later and standard--thus oversaturating the market.

Something like that.

basically too much of a good thing.

 

[wenis]

oversaturation and a big downturn in quality.

 

[SpacLock]

No disrespect, but they're just books with pictures in them as far as I'm concerned. I honestly never got into them, so it always shocks me when I see another thread about comic books on GAF, especially now that marvel and DC have whored themselves out to Hollywood and television.

It's not that I lack imagination either. Give my younger self a couple of X-Men action figures and my ass would be writing action scripts in my head until bed time.

 

[EviLore]

The main thing to know is that the comic industry is all about pandering, to a fault. They pandered to collectors/speculators causing a market crash, and they continue to pander to fans of the aging, static superhero IPs, which prevents any growth from taking place or the medium being accepted as a legitimate/worthwhile form of entertainment by most of the population.

Distribution is a problem. If a new series doesn't meet certain sales standards out the gates then it's effectively impossible to continue with it in issue format. Digital distro will eventually solve this and allow for successful original IPs from creators who aren't already industry superstars.

 

[Venomgxt]

TV Shows, Movies, Internet, Public School System.

 

[ILikeFeet]

No disrespect, but they're just books with pictures in them as far as I'm concerned. I honestly never got into them, so it always shocks me when I see another thread about comic books on GAF, especially now that marvel and DC have whored themselves out to Hollywood and television.

It's not that I lack imagination either. Give my younger self a couple of X-Men action figures and my ass would be writing action scripts in my head until bed time.

It's the opposite for me. I can barely get into novels, but comics, I love the stuff.

Didn't single issue sales drop in favor of collected issues?

 

[wenis]

FYI Diamond is losing it's distribution right at the beginning of next year. Expect a big push from marvel and dc for smaller distributors and digital.

 

[jman2050]

Catering to a dedicated but ultimately narrow niche which resulted in short-term gains at the expense of fostering any sort of mainstream appeal causing the industry to collapse when it realized it couldn't sustain itself off of its narrow fanbase.

Basically, it's what you're seeing happen in the anime and (to an extent) video game industries right now.

 

[Persona7]

Internet?

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

those damn video games

 

[weekend_warrior]

well you're on a videogame forum not a comic book forum so.... democrats?

 

[zoukka]

Comics have never been better than today.

Catering to a dedicated but ultimately narrow niche which resulted in short-term gains at the expense of fostering any sort of mainstream appeal causing the industry to collapse when it realized it couldn't sustain itself off of its narrow fanbase.

Basically, it's what you're seeing happen in the anime and (to an extent) video game industries right now.

lol no.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

everyone is sick to death of superhero bullshit and would rather watch a movie or play a game than read a comic

 

[Vyer]

If you are talking about a comparison with the 90s, a lot of these guys are right: that was mostly a false boom, full of collectors who thought they could make some money. The industry responded, pushing out heapings of shit with glossy covers and all sorts of gimmicks by the truckload.

Which, of course, in turn killed any collectability they might have had.

I really think the industry has kind of settled into it's niche now. The prices are a concern, but there's a little bit of something for everyone - plenty of the classic superhero stuff of course, but a lot of good, original, independant minded work that is a really great read.

Some of the best stuff I've ever read in comics I've read in the last 5 or so years.

Unfortunately, because they are a much smaller market now, a lot of guys get their runs killed prematurely. Seems to me it's a lot harder to survive, now.

Though, ironically enough, I'd imagine Hollywood is helping with that at the moment.

 

[karobit]

The high peak of sales in the early 90s (which probably isn't a high peak, given the circulation numbers of comics in the 40s and 60s) had less to do with the popularity of comics as a medium and the perception of comic books as a valuable item. Spider-Man #1 (1990) sold a fuck-ton of copies because most of those people thought they would be able to turn it around later and make a mint. Of course, that wasn't the case, but the companies recognized that aspect of the audience and began catering to it with meaningless special issues and covers and #1s, burning off some of the actual reading audience out of frustration.

But the issue is actually larger than that even, and I believe has it's roots in the 80s and the introduction of the Direct Market. Cutting out newsstand sales and limiting distribution to specialty stores creates a decaying loop. Of course kids still get into comics, but it isn't in front of them at the grocery store. You don't even see the packs of comics at CostCo or Toys 'R' Us anymore. By limiting their audience to people who seek it out, comics essentially removed themselves from mainstream pop culture. No one sees Boys Life at the supermarket checkout and says "Wow, they still make that?" Of course they still fucking make that. It's there every time you buy milk. But hang out in a comic store and you'll hear that from people walking in out of curiousity. "Wow, they still make comic books? I stopped reading those when I was 12." What that person really means is they stopped seeing them.

 

[GavinGT]

Kids don't read written literature these days, as movies require much less effort.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

There was the 90s crash, and i think the biggest factor of all is the constant rising cost. In my opinion the quality of comics since the crash has grown considerably within the superhero books and the independents. But how can you expect to have $3-4 single issue comics and expect 1) people willing to spend the money on a consistent basis 2) allow people that like comics to diversify their spending to newer titles and 3) allow publishers to give more experimental books a chance?

There's no question the demand for the material is strong as it excels in mainstream ways with movies, animated shows, etc. The problem is until the pricing model is corrected the medium that i really enjoy will become more and more niche.

 

[VALIS]

Major competition from other forms of entertainment like video games, cable TV, internet.

Marvel and DC quality fell off a fucking cliff during the 90s boom, especially art wise (see post #2).

Over-saturation. Marvel and DC were probably publishing over 100 titles a month combined through the 90s.

American independent comics saw a renaissance in the 90s, though, between Vertigo, Dark Horse, Fantagraphics, etc.

 

[Yeef]

Webcomics, Manga and non--superhero stuff may have captured the current generation's interest more than super hero comics. Do you have any numbers that show the state of the entire comic industry or are you just assuming that sales are poor because they see less discussion than they used to?

 

[Kusagari]

1. They're incredibly overpriced. 3-4 dollars for a 22 page comic in today's age where people hate paying for anything is pretty much a death knell. The main people who comics appeal to will just wait to download it for free online.

2. It's virtually impossible to FIND comics these days. The only places I know that carry them are book shops and comic stores. Comics used to be everywhere. Now it's impossible to find them unless you go looking for them.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

too much competing media

 

[Calcaneus]

Catering to a dedicated but ultimately narrow niche which resulted in short-term gains at the expense of fostering any sort of mainstream appeal causing the industry to collapse when it realized it couldn't sustain itself off of its narrow fanbase.

Basically, it's what you're seeing happen in the anime and (to an extent) video game industries right now.

I'll give you anime, but don't you think video games are branching out quite a bit in recent years? I mean, look at the Wii.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

^^^^

If you took Nintendo out of the equation, it still looks that way. Rising costs, lack of revenue growth, need to appeal to a shrinking core demographic has put the squeeze on pubs in a big way this gen.

----------

Extreme concentration on and pandering to the top 20% percent of customers at the expense of the rest. It was basically giving the hardest of the hardcore exactly what they wanted while at the same time alienating anyone who was trying to enter or be just a casual comic fan.

I didn't read comics as a kid and the only time I did was when my cousin bought an ULTRA SPECIAL LIMITED EDITION HOLOGRAM COVERED COMIC BOOK edition of the X-Men. I read it and thought it was cool, so I decided to see if I could get the next one with my pocket money.

I got to the newsagent and there were like three or four different editions of the X-Men comics and they didn't actually seem to have much to do with one another. Since all I really wanted to find out was what happened next in the story I'd read, I skipped the X-Men and bought Judge Dredd goes to Australia (the Sylvester Stallone movie was fairly new) instead.

It was stupid (if entertaining) but afterwards I never felt the desire to go out and buy more comics to follow the story ever again. For one, it was too expensive, and secondly, it seemed that in order to understand a lot of the story elements, I'd have to buy and read every issue for the past year in the same continuity and keep appraised of events in other comics in case they crossed over. I decided there were better things I could do with my pocket money.

I found out later that the comic book industry had just imploded on itself when this took place. With all the crap they were pulling, I'm not surprised non-ultra-hardcore fans gave up.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

The main thing to know is that the comic industry is all about pandering, to a fault. They pandered to collectors/speculators causing a market crash, and they continue to pander to fans of the aging, static superhero IPs, which prevents any growth from taking place or the medium being accepted as a legitimate/worthwhile form of entertainment by most of the population.

Distribution is a problem. If a new series doesn't meet certain sales standards out the gates then it's effectively impossible to continue with it in issue format. Digital distro will eventually solve this and allow for successful original IPs from creators who aren't already industry superstars.

You really are awesome.

I like most of the mods, but I hold a special place in my heart for you my friend.

<3

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

So in a nutshell:

#1 Catered solely to a temporary niche market

#2 Didn't bother trying to expand to new markets.

#3 Pulled out of casual consumer marketplaces (I.E. supermarkets)

Do I have this right?

Webcomics, Manga and non--superhero stuff may have captured the current generation's interest more than super hero comics. Do you have any numbers that show the state of the entire comic industry or are you just assuming that sales are poor because they see less discussion than they used to?

Like any media/mass communications book states it.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

In the current age paying $3 for 5 minutes of entertainment and then having to wait another month to get the next installment is such an antiquated, unattractive business model. It'd be like if action movies never evolved past the old serials of the 30s. It boggles my mind that comic companies haven't moved on to complete graphic novels. Maybe I'm crazy but I think it could have done a lot to advance the medium.

 

[StoOgE]

As someone who fell out of comics I can tell you they seem much harder to get into then when I was a kid.

Maybe I'm just wrong, but the amount of crossovers and huge "events" seems to have gone through the roof. Also, you have to go to comic book stores to get them anymore... and most of the population isn't going to go into them.

It would be equivalent of gamestop being the only place to by video games.

I think if they would push more trade papers into super markets/wherever else and kept the single issues to comic stores it would be a pretty big win.

 

[Duki]

because you're being asked to buy a product which takes 4 minutes to read and you have to wait until next month for the next part. not cheap when you try and read more than one series + people want their entertainment instantaneously.

and every continuity pretty much sucks and is too confusing or boring or meaningless for anyone to try and get into it. nothing you read feels like it matters since it'll probably be retconned in five years or something.

 

[jman2050]

I'll give you anime, but don't you think video games are branching out quite a bit in recent years? I mean, look at the Wii.

That was kind of where I was going with the whole "to an extent" thing. There are warning signs and it's likely the way companies do business will change dramatically in many ways as a result, but I don't think the video game industry as a whole is going to crash and burn like it seems some people in Gaming do. Nintendo at the least will ensure that even if the enthusiast demographic has to be dragged kicking and screaming.

The anime industry however, seems to be a dead ringer for what happened to the comic industry, and I don't just mean here in America either.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Reminds me of that incredible History Channel special. They said it was due to over saturation, and competition from the internet and games.

 

[Anticitizen One]

Because nothing can top this:

 

[StoOgE]

That was kind of where I was going with the whole "to an extent" thing. There are warning signs and it's likely the way companies do business will change dramatically in many ways as a result, but I don't think the video game industry as a whole is going to crash and burn like it seems some people in Gaming do. Nintendo at the least will ensure that even if the enthusiast demographic has to be dragged kicking and screaming.

The anime industry however, seems to be a dead ringer for what happened to the comic industry, and I don't just mean here in America either.

Have you been paying much attention to Nintendo lately? They have been losing money hand over fist lately.

I'm a stockholder, so obviously I believe they'll pull out (or I would sell) but it isn't as though there is any sure thing in gaming right now.

 

[Barrage]

The industry as a whole is far behind in terms of accessibility, and is aimed at the wrong demographic.

 

[enzo_gt]

Need to be smaller and consumer sized too in certain cases along with the aforementioned issues of accessibility and distribution. No one wants to read Amazing Spiderman #548 as their "in" to comic books. On a slightly related note, I just watched Comicvine's newbies guide to comic books and will certainly be checking some of those out.

 

[Averon]

Another thing I would like to mention is how hard it was for people not strongly invested in comic books to follow the story lines. Big events, which was far too common in the '90s, would fracture its story line across multiple books. For instance, part 1 of a major event story line may start in, say, Cable#47 and part 2 in X-Men #13, part 3 in New Mutants #56 etc...That's too much work for the casual consumer to follow.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Have you been paying much attention to Nintendo lately? They have been losing money hand over fist lately.

I'm a stockholder, so obviously I believe they'll pull out (or I would sell) but it isn't as though there is any sure thing in gaming right now.

To be fair, a lot of that's to do with currency exchange and the company reporting in Yen.

 

[Byakuya769]

You really are awesome.

I like most of the mods, but I hold a special place in my heart for you my friend.

<3

slurp slurp

>: D

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Another thing I would like to mention is how hard it was for people not strongly invested in comic books to follow the story lines. Big events, which was far too common in the '90s, would fracture its story line across multiple books. For instance, part 1 of a major event story line may start in, say, Cable#47 and part 2 in X-Men #13, part 3 in New Mutants #56 etc...That too much work for the casual consumer to follow.

This is another thing I was gonna mention. Hey you want to check out that new Batman storyline? Sure it sounds cool. Okay well you have to pick up Batman #733, then Detective Comics #693, then next month Robin #94 and then Catwoman #173, and yes it will have different artists and writers each issue! And make sure you go and buy them the first day because there is only one comic book shop in a 60 mile radius and some douchebag will go and buy up all the copies so he can resell them at a convention next month! So intimidating for a casual observer to get into. It's really just a horrible medium for attracting new customers. It seems like the entire industry is just run to cater to the old, die hard fans and their fear of change. If the video game industry was run the same way we'd probably still be playing 16 bit 2D games right now.