Poetic.Injustice
Member
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/capco...pport-for-performance-graphical-improvements/
Maybe for future games using the engine excluding deep down.
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Capcoms Panta-Rhei Engine Receives Mantle Support For Better Performance & Graphics
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/capco...pport-for-performance-graphical-improvements/
Maybe for future games using the engine excluding deep down.
Probably soon if they're actually bothering with Mantle support for it.
WickedLaharl
Member
Really looking forward to what the Panty Raid Engine can do.
This is a PC specific API to emulate low level console programming on AMD hardware.
Presumably this will be used in a multiplatform title that's also on PC.
No, it does not need to. The GNM is already low level.
Mantle aims to bring the same kind of performance improvements to PC.
Not interested in switching to AMD but Mantle is great tech.
qa_engineer
Member
Consoles don't need to support mantle as console development already allows for programming "to the metal" Mantle is bringing that console-like approach to PC.
Edit: beaten
ShinMaruku
Member
I think it's best that the nail this engine down and finish it before they announce games for it. When everything is said and done I think they'd have a better budget to play around with.
Crimsonclaw111
Member
I wonder what else will use it. Is MT Frameworks dead or will Panta-Rhei essentially be the new MT Frameworks?
Neat. Good to see they are putting some extra effort into the engine.
Pretty much from what I know.
I think it's best that the nail this engine down and finish it before they announce games for it. When everything is said and done I think they'd have a better budget to play around with.
Well the issue is that engines never actually finish until they're abandoned. They're continually upgraded and modified based on the needs of the games that use them, and the first wave of games that use them define what features they have.
An engine built in isolation of actual games usually never goes anywhere or is laden with problems that are only found when someone tries to build a game on it.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Looking forward to the PC versions of Viewtiful Joe, DMC5, SF5, and Ace Attorney: God Hand Edition
Beyond that, the entire purpose of an engine is to save money through its use. It's not likely that Capcom's going to be licensing it out. If they aren't getting any out of use of it and it's just become a big pit that they're throwing resources into, it seems like the project is a flop. They may have been better off sticking with MT Framework at this rate.
ShinMaruku
Member
Fair enough but I think they can nail down enough from deep down to announce more games on the engine. I just feel that they are holding back until their latest stable of titles come out and put some revenue in their pockets or the developers and management have no idea what games to make.
I want to love Capcom like I used to but right now they seem like a company that has no idea what it's doing right now.
This is such a non-announcement. Capcom is proud to announce that they will be evaluating how they can use Mantle support in their graphics pipeline for an engine which currently has zero games announced on PC. This will apparently have "outstanding benefits" to gamers and their developers. Bravo Capcom.
I'm kind of assuming they have several other games already in development on the engine, but they're not ready to be shown yet, perhaps due to difficulties with switching engines given how long it's taken for Deep Down to come out.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
Gotta convince people to buy AMD.
iirc MT Framework will still continue to be used for Handheld titles and last-gen titles.
I believe their stated logic was that it would have cost so much to make games with MT Framework 2.0's development pipeline that they wouldn't have been able to keep making top end AAA games.
But with an eye on a mobile gaming future, maybe that's not super relevant to them anymore.
If the best partner AMD has for such an announcement now is Capcom, they're going to need a lot more help! Lol.
I imagine Mantel doesn't have many partners left to sign since DirectX 12 has most of the same benefits and works with everything.
I mean even DICE who proposed and helped co-design the whole API seems fine with just switching to DirectX 12 eventually because their end goal was to get an API that did this stuff and worked on everything, so either way they get what they want.
Refreshment.01
Member
Shouldn't Mantle support be a "D'UH!" defacto standard in PS4/X1 due to the type of CPU's these machines have?
A console owner is an AMD hardware owner?
ShinMaruku
Member
Hopefully they get through that rough spot, but if they have not learned anything from the last set of games they had perhaps it's for the best that it's taking more time for them to decide a new direction. (It will take a lot for me to forgive them fro DmC XD)
No, they use their own libraries.
PS4 uses PSSL and LibGCM and Microsoft uses an off-shoot of DirectX11 and is eventually migrating to DirectX 12.
Right now they seem pretty lost in general since they keep giving up on their new business directions (or pulling back their efforts in them) every time something blows up, but everything keeps blowing up on them.
Refreshment.01
Member
Aware of the exclusive libraries. But maybe im remembering wrong since im not versed in many Mantle details, but wasn't one of the guys at Dice talking about how easy is to implement Mantle even when you code to other API's? He talked about as if there wasn't much overheed in supporting it, so if you are making a game for consoles in the first place supporting Mantle for a possible PC release wouldn't be much of a problem.
Of course my memory is trash so i could posibly be remembering wrong.
Objectively Bad Opinion
Member
Yes, I remember that also, I also remember a statement to the effect of "the mantle code is very similar to the PS4 code in Frostbite"
Oh yes, that direction is true.
That said, a lot of other developers felt that ultimately you still have a non-insignificant workload increase on notably valuable resources (high end engine programmers) to support vendor specific APIs, so they didn't want to make anything that wouldn't work across as many platforms as possible (like DirectX12, which will be supported by AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel's integrated stuff). It also raises the QA and post launch support burden.
Epic and Unity for example seemed to balk at the idea, and John Carmack did as well when he was still at ZeniMax.
I do think Mantle is a really cool concept and I'm glad they did it, but I suspect the ultimate victory will be in things like DirectX12, Metal, and AEP that build from its ideals.
On that note, I really wonder why the development of this engine has gone on how it has. Capcom makes a lot of similar mistakes. I suspect that have some issues evaluating projects in the first place. Determining the scope of their projects or of evaluating the resources necessary in order to develop a project with whatever scope. I think that would partially lead to that appearance you described.
MT Framework is not dead. I think we can easily assume that RE Revelations 2 is using the engine, and that game will be released on both past- and current-gen consoles.
As far as I can tell they essentially went so hard on making development efficient that in certain aspects (like all realtime lighting) they ended up making roadblocks for actual game development.
Like in a corporate interview they noted that they could do some things they couldn't do before with the new engine, but also that they couldn't do things they used to be able to do with their old engine. Their lighting solution (sparse voxel cone global illumination) is something that would have major issues with large open areas that have a number of moving things, which would be the usecase for many of their games.
Unreal Engine 4 actually had to drop a similar lighting solution due to this issue.
If they develop it in tandem with a game with these requirements though, they can catch these kinds of problems early and correct for them. I suspect they didn't start enough projects with the technology set early enough (or at least not an ambitious enough one) to keep things sailing smoothly.
But yes, I think in general they don't spend enough time in project planning being very honest with themselves about potential problems and failure chances with their plans and just go ahead with whatever sounds like it will make a bunch of money on a cursory glance. They very much feel like a company that's wants to make easy money and quickly in modern times.
Backfoggen
Banned
Remember when there was supposed to be a Deep Down beta this summer.
Refreshment.01
Member
And thanks for the small history lesson Nirolak.
Maybe i' ll take time to read a bit on the Mantle stuff. Or at least hear what ended up happening with that famous Battlefield patch that supposed to boost performance when using it.
Thought by how little sound it was made it looks like it wasn't such a big of a deal.
I see what you're saying, but couldn't that lighting situation have been avoided by getting the the actual game developers in on the initial requirements analysis? Either way, they'd have to get the input for things to run well, but I think improving their planning is the widest solution and would gain the most benefit for the company. I'd think that if development of the engine was running smoothly in the first place, they would have naturally begun attaching games to it.
Well I think Deep Down itself has been attached from the beginning, but it's also a game that takes place in five foot wide boxes.
I imagine they were hoping they would have more horsepower or be able to optimize enough to get it working anyway, but a bigger scale project might have revealed that earlier.
John Bender
Banned
Seems like the Panta-Rhei engine is performing better than the Luminous Engine....
4Gamer has photos of the slides from the Capcom announcement: http://www.4gamer.net/games/234/G023477/20141121115/
Here's the closing slide for the lolz:
Here's the closing slide for the lolz:
KingpinZero
Member
Also i would like to add that AMD Mantle is an open implementation that can be used from other vendors as well, its not strictly tied to AMD hardware.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
So basically "We're going to have AMD pay for our engine?"?
Oh, and I love Mantle. I'll be finishing my PC overhaul soon, minus AMD, but I saw really nice gains with it. Can't wait for DX12.
At Kingpin Zero, yeah I know, but try telling Nvidia that.
Oh, and I love Mantle. I'll be finishing my PC overhaul soon, minus AMD, but I saw really nice gains with it. Can't wait for DX12.
At Kingpin Zero, yeah I know, but try telling Nvidia that.
I can't wait to see Leon's flowing TressFX locks, lol.
It's pretty telling when you compare it to MT Framework's origins, which evolved out of Shadow of Rome and was built alongside Dead Rising and Lost Planet. The first MT Framework game launched 10 months into the generation too, we're already past that point this gen and still have no idea when we're going to actually get a Panta Rhei product.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
How many developers are working on DirectX 12 right now? Do we have engines running on it validating MS's claims that the API is just as good as Mantle is in terms of multi core performance and lower overhead?
It would not be the first time a Technology war is won by marketing, F.U.D., PR, and sheer resistance to change. See Intel and their fight against the MS-led ACE consortium seeking to replace the Intel in Wintel, see all the cartel like crap against Rambus in the PC space (sure they were no saint, but their technology did work well and they were essentially forced out by the other DRAM makers).
Sure, DirectX 12 will be on all GPU's and developers will support it, but it looks like we are basically admitting defeat to any chance there will ever be a competitor strong enough to challenge or supplant the current market leader. If this does not make the leader complacent, I do not know what will
.I see them already in my dreams.