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[Morrigan Stark]

When you mock an entire religion, you are being racist against them.

Uhhhhhhh WHAT

 

[orioto]

I have no answer to make sure that CH is not targetted in the future.
All I can say is that for the same reason you don't make policy based on stupid people's reaction you shouldn't censor yourself because someone is too stupid to understand the point.
We shouldn't stop making light of shitty 2nd amendmant open carry people because they have weapons too.

You're always answering on a national scale to what i say. We're not talking about a bunch of assholes not getting the cartoons. We're talking about entire populations in countries of the third world receiving the comics as a proof of the west despise for their religion. This is way more than what you want it to be. That's what i'm saying. It's too, huge, there are too many consequences. It's not just about the right to make fun of things in France and how people appreciate the humor ot not..

 

[walking fiend]

What are you even trying to say here. Religious people are not a race.

Listen to Trump or any other right-wing fascist politician and see how being a Muslim becomes a thing. They talk of Muslims, as if it is a race. Just like how Germans treated Jews as a race.

Are you trying to tell me Nazi party wasn't racist?

The truth is that there is no such as thing as an abstract ideal Muslim type; but that is not how politics and racism works.

Even racism doesn't exist in reality. You don't have black race, or asian race, etc. you have Humans. Just dividing them into different races is the start of racism. It is merely a discussion of etymology, but still it has political power.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Listen to Trump or any other right-wing fascist politician and see how being a Muslim becomes a thing. They talk of Muslims, as if it is a race. Just like how Germans treated Jews as a race.

Are you trying to tell me Nazi party wasn't racist?

The truth is that there is no such as thing as an abstract ideal Muslim type; but that is not how politics and racism works.

Even racism doesn't exist in reality. You don't have black race, or asian race, etc. you have Humans. Just dividing them into different races is the start of racism.

Oddly enough the religious aspect of Jews was way down the list of reasons as to why Adolf had a bee in his bonnet.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Just say bigoted.

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

Listen to Trump or any other right-wing fascist politician and see how being a Muslim becomes a thing. They talk of Muslims, as if it is a race. Just like how Germans treated Jews as a race.

Are you trying to tell me Nazi party wasn't racist?

The truth is that there is no such as thing as an abstract ideal Muslim type; but that is not how politics and racism works.

Even racism doesn't exist in reality. You don't have black race, or asian race, etc. you have Humans. Just dividing them into different races is the start of racism. It is merely a discussion of etymology, but still it has political power.

That's a slippery slope right or'there I tell you what.

Antisemitism is special, Judaism is considered a race in Europe culturally.
That's why you can be racist to jews.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You can't really be racist against muslism, you can however be racist against arabs or "brown people" as they call them.
Btw everyone understood your point, it's just me being anal about it.

Actually, since race is a social construct, you can racialize anything. Muslim are certainly racialized since they are essentialized.
Jews are a good example of it. Ashkenaze were ethnically europeans and were racialized as semites in the modern times when the pre-modern antisemitism was mainly religious.
Today, you can be an atheist or christian arab and you'll be discriminated as a muslim anyway.

 

[Malleymal]

Yea no.... I am all for free speech and being able to express yourself, but unless they have fully updated all security measures, I would not be happy with this decision. I also see how they can't let that past event run their company though. tough decision

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Are you trying to tell me Nazi party wasn't racist?

Lmao

I'm sure that's exactly what he was trying to tell you.

 

[Tiberius]

Listen to Trump or any other right-wing fascist politician and see how being a Muslim becomes a thing. They talk of Muslims, as if it is a race. Just like how Germans treated Jews as a race.

Are you trying to tell me Nazi party wasn't racist?

The truth is that there is no such as thing as an abstract ideal Muslim type; but that is not how politics and racism works.

Even racism doesn't exist in reality. You don't have black race, or asian race, etc. you have Humans. Just dividing them into different races is the start of racism. It is merely a discussion of etymology, but still it has political power.

There's the jewish religion and the jewish ethnie
There's no Muslim ethnie

 

[Media]

It is not balls, it is just stupid attention seeking.
Trying to pretend that they are doing something nobel is just laughable.
You can make your points, and speak your mind without going the extra mile to make sure that you are offending someone.
Christ I thought this was the home of do not offend...oh wait it is only for certain things.

Erm, I didn't mean to upset you?

Free speech is something I am kinda passionate about. They aren't hurting anyone. They make statements on everything under the sun. You totally can and should criticize them, but the fact that they have been literally attacked for previous jokes and still are publishing similar jokes isn't about 'attention seeking'. It's brave. They didn't change their behavior at all after a bunch of them died over it, so kudo to them.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

There's the jewish religion and the jewish ethnie
There's no Muslim ethnie

Muslims Aren’t A Race, So I Can’t Be Racist, Right? Wrong.

 

[walking fiend]

Lmao

I'm sure that's exactly what he was trying to tell you.

That doesn't seem to be consensus though:

Antisemitism is special, Judaism is considered a race in Europe culturally.
That's why you can be racist to jews.

---
Let me quote you someone from another thread, Rio Olympics: Iranian woman pressured to take down sign or leave the venue/be banned:

Sadly the majority of the muslim world is probably against her views, and a statement like hers is considered provocative and subversive. A western nation not removing her sign it would be probably be seen as a provocation of the west that can't respect the sovereignity of islamic states when they do things that are wanted by the majority but disliked by western people (like re-employing the death penalty or having penalties for apostasy and all that jazz), but don't do anything when minorities provocative views are expressed. Same thing as statues being covered and all that jazz. You can't reason with those kind of views. Just ignore them and wait for them to come around, else you just give ammunition to nationalism.

I mean, in a "western" country like the US, you have like what, 30% of the people outright supporting Donald Trump? I don't think people actually realize how regressive the average person in less socially evolved states is. Sad things all around.

See how s/he believes that there is such as thing as a Muslim world?
---

The racism against Muslim is just a subsection of Orientalism and racism against people who aren't western. Edward Said has a whole book dedicated to show how it works.

 

[Systolique]

5 pages of this user posting nonsense, I don't know how you guys keep up with it, this thread has gone to hell and has no purpose anymore.

 

[Mael]

You're always answering on a national scale to what i say. We're not talking about a bunch of assholes not getting the cartoons. We're talking about entire populations in countries of the third world receiving the comics as a proof of the west despise for their religion. This is way more than what you want it to be. That's what i'm saying. It's too, huge, there are too many consequences. It's not just about the right to make fun of things in France and how people appreciate the humor ot not..

Yeah, no.
We're not going to have to change how we do things because idiots half a world away do not get a joke.
If these same people do not have a problem with Total basically fucking them up the ass while taking their lands we're not going to humor them when they claim they have a problem with a drawing instead.

Actually, since race is a social construct, you can racialize anything. Muslim are certainly racialized since they are essentialized.
Jews are a good example of it. Ashkenaze were ethnically europeans and were racialized as semites in the modern times when the pre-modern antisemitism was mainly religious.
Today, you can be an atheist or christian arab and you'll be discriminated as a muslim anyway.

Race is a construct based on look.
If you don't look like a muslim you're not going to be discriminated as one.
You won't see someone bash a muslim over the head if he looks like Ryan Gosling.
Jewish people were associated with distinctive facial features (so goes the histroy books anyway) and were discriminated based on that (and when you couldn't tell they made them made them wear distinctive attire).

See how s/he believes that there is such as thing as a Muslim world?
---

The racism against Muslim is just a subsection of Orientalism and racism against people who aren't western. Edward Said has a whole book dedicated to show how it works.

Yeah that's racism against middle east people.
If you don't have a similar problem with people from Indonesian descent it's clear the issue is race not religion.

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

Muslims Aren’t A Race, So I Can’t Be Racist, Right? Wrong.

I had to stop reading at racism is no longer about skin color.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Muslims Aren’t A Race, So I Can’t Be Racist, Right? Wrong.

Muslims aren't a race, so you can't be racist. But you can be bigoted.

 

[XOMTOR]

No. People can be offended. What they shouldn't do is go out to kill the offender.

This once again is victim blaming. A woman shouldn't go out at night in a dress, rapes are a thing that happen, stay inside and the problem is solved.

Religious insanity won't be fixed by being cowards either.

Well of course not but that's not reality is it? It's not a matter of blaming the victim, it simply is what it is. A woman shouldn't ever be raped regardless of where she is, what time of day it is or what she's wearing but we all know that there are certain places in this world where that's a fairytale.

Look, I'm all for standing up for certain values but if drawing a controversial comic gets you (and possibly others) killed, I'd be finding another way to get my point across. Whatever, that's just me. I'm Canadian and apparently I apologize for everything even when it's not really my fault.

Spoiler

/Satire

 

[walking fiend]

I'll just post this on whether it can be called racism or not:

"Several scholars consider Islamophobia to be a form of xenophobia or racism. A 2007 article in Journal of Sociology defines Islamophobia as anti-Muslim racism and a continuation of anti-Asian and anti-Arab racism.[1][36] Similarly, John Denham has drawn parallels between modern Islamophobia and the antisemitism of the 1930s,[37] so have Maud Olofsson,[38] and Jan Hjärpe, among others.[39]

Others have questioned the supposed relationship between Islamophobia and racism. Jocelyne Cesari writes that "academics are still debating the legitimacy of the term and questioning how it differs from other terms such as racism, anti-Islamism, anti-Muslimness, and anti-Semitism."[40][41] Erdenir finds that "there is no consensus on the scope and content of the term and its relationship with concepts such as racism ..."[42] and Shryock, reviewing the use of the term across national boundaries, comes to the same conclusion.[43] On occasion race does come into play. Diane Frost defines Islamophobia as anti-Muslim feeling and violence based on "race" or religion.[44] Islamophobia may also target people who have Muslim names, or have a look that is associated with Muslims.[45] According to Alan Johnson, Islamophobia sometimes can be nothing more than xenophobia or racism "wrapped in religious terms."[46]

When you note that almost everyone who comes from Middle-east is a Muslim, it becomes somewhat easy to understand why Islamophobia is closely associated with racism against Middle-eastern people.

That is why in every Charlo Hebdo's cartoon, the Muslim looks like someone from middle-east, not, say, a Malaysian Muslim.

 

[Tiberius]

Muslims Aren’t A Race, So I Can’t Be Racist, Right? Wrong.

Islamophobia is not racism like anticlericalism is not racism
Charlie is islamophobic like they are anticleric but they are not racist
Unfortunately some communitarian associations try to change the meaning of the word to be able to condamn all critics of islam as racist

 

[Mael]

Well of course not but that's not reality is it? It's not a matter of blaming the victim, it simply is what it is. A woman shouldn't ever be raped regardless of where she is, what time of day it is or what she's wearing but we all know that there are certain places in this world where that's a fairytale.

Look, I'm all for standing up for certain values but if drawing a controversial comic gets you (and possibly others) killed, I'd be finding another way to get my point across. Whatever, that's just me. I'm Canadian and apparently I apologize for everything even when it's not really my fault.

Usually when someone is raped the reflex is to ban the guilty party and not lecture all the women about how the skirt they're wearing should be 5 inches below the ankle.
But that's just me, I don't tend to blame people who aren't guilty of something.

 

[walking fiend]

Usually when someone is raped the reflex is to ban the guilty party and not lecture all the women about how the skirt they're wearing should be 5 inches below the ankle.
But that's just me, I don't tend to blame people who aren't guilty of something.

The women who are raped, have not helped promote a sexist culture.

If a woman or minority votes for Trump, aren't you going to hold them responsible for the consequences?

---
I think this is the 3rd time that I have to explain why Charlie Hebdo is not a victim of victim blaming. It is tiring when people wave around the 'victim blaming' flag around as if Charlo Hebdo is even remotely similar to the powerless woman who is raped. That is such an insult to the situation of the people who are actually powerless.

 

[Audioboxer]

Many racists are bigots and many bigots are racists. However not every racist is a bigot and not every bigot is a racist.

As much as that might bend some folks brains it is true. Usually in any scenario we can be dealing with a fairly nasty person but it does make sense to be sensible enough to differentiate so the term racist doesn't lose its meaning and profound disgust. Same goes for bigot.

To be a bigot usually means complete intolerance of religion as well. As crude as Charlie Hebdo gets I don't think I'd feel comfortable saying I'd truly believe all the staff behind it cannot tolerate religion. They just often pick the low hanging fruit that is extremism and the far right.

 

[Systolique]

That is why in every Charlo Hebdo's cartoon, the Muslim looks like someone from middle-east, not, say, a Malaysian Muslim.

Stop writing, seriously, you understood nothing of the cover.

It's a classic way of using clichés, they are not mocking how muslims look but not how idiots like the mayor perceive every single muslim looks like.

You literally understood nothing of the very subject you're debating about, it's infuriating.
You're misunderstanding every single thing about this topic from your very first post, everybody is telling you that you're wrong. Take a step back.

 

[tuxfool]

The women who are raped, have not helped promote a sexist culture.

That is precisely what some conservatives argue. Women dressing "provocatively" bring this upon themselves.

If they stay in their place then no problems happen.

 

[Tiberius]

The women who are raped, have not helped promote a sexist culture.

If a woman or minority votes for Trump, aren't you going to hold them responsible for the consequences?

---
I think this is the 3rd time that I have to explain why Charlie Hebdo is not a victim of victim blaming. It is tiring when people wave around the 'victim blaming' flag around as if Charlo Hebdo is even remotely similar to the powerless woman who is raped. That is such an insult to the situation of the people who are actually powerless.

If i use your twisted logic yes they are responsible by the bikinis, and the short skirt they wearing, by the sexist medias they taking part in etc...

 

[walking fiend]

It's a classic way of using clichés, they are not mocking how muslims look but not how idiots like the mayor perceive every single muslim looks like.

That just proves my point that Muslims are perceived as middle-eastern people and vice versa, among racist people, and thus we can either discuss it under the topic of racism or Islamophobia. For the record, I didn't say Charlie Hebdo is being racist itself.

That is precisely what some conservatives argue. Women dressing "provocatively" bring this upon themselves.

That is not what I am arguing for though. I have already explained why Women, as a minority group with little political power, are not even remotely comparable to Charlie Hebdo with overwhelming political power among the majory.

If i use your twisted logic yes they are responsible by the bikinis, and the short skirt they wearing, by the sexist medias they taking part in etc...

Yes, if you are a woman and you vote for a sexist party [say Trump] or work in his campaign, you are responsible for the rise of sexism.

Or, let me use a better example, the white women in the early 20th century and late 19th century, who didn't stand up against racism, are responsible for the sexism right now. The two might seem unrelated, but when you look at the political scene in the US, there is a strong correlation between racism and sexism among the politicians.

 

[BarringGaffner]

I had to stop reading at racism is no longer about skin color.

Yep... incredibly stupid article. I can't help but laugh of how stupid his points were.

 

[Mael]

The women who are raped, have not helped promote a sexist culture.

If a woman or minority votes for Trump, aren't you going to hold them responsible for the consequences?

---
I think this is the 3rd time that I have to explain why Charlie Hebdo is not a victim of victim blaming. It is tiring when people wave around the 'victim blaming' flag around as if Charlo Hebdo is even remotely similar to the powerless woman who is raped. That is such an insult to the situation of the people who are actually powerless.

So if a girl who work in Vogue is raped it's fair game?
It's all kinds of shit when you reverse the charge and claim that the terrorist are somehow less guilty is they target "worthless" victims.

And yeah you will have to explain plenty of times how CH "had it coming".

 

[Systolique]

For the record, I didn't say Charlie Hebdo is being racist itself.

It's your frickin second post in the thread :

Oh, perhaps you haven't been following the news:

French city of Cannes bans Burkini on beaches, citing "public order" concerns #1

Stop pretending that these caricatures aren't overtly racist.

You're accusing the very paper who's fighting racism, secularism and communitarianism of being racist.
Just stop pretending you understand anything about this matter, every single post you made shows how little you do !

 

[Tiberius]

The women who are raped, have not helped promote a sexist culture.

Yes, if you are a woman and you vote for a sexist party [say Trump] or work in his campaign, you are responsible for the rise of sexism.

So if these women got raped it's their fault if i understand you correctly

 

[Mael]

And I love the "rise of sexism" like that's something dormant or something.

 

[remist]

Muslims Aren’t A Race, So I Can’t Be Racist, Right? Wrong.

Whether our concept of race makes sense or not, the reason racism is separated from other forms of prejudices is because it is bigotry based on an inherent characteristic. Religion and culture are ideas, not inherent characteristics you are born with. Cultural racism is an incoherent idea.

 

[walking fiend]

So if these women got raped it's their fault if i understand you correctly

If someone votes for Trump, they are responsible for the all shit that will ensue; that of course doesn't abdicate a rapist from his crime.

Whether our concept of race makes sense or not, the reason racism is separated from other forms of prejudices is because it is bigotry based on an inherent characteristic. Religion and culture are ideas, not inherent characteristics you are born with. Cultural racism is an incoherent idea.

But if you simply look like a Muslim, they will consider you a Muslim. It reminds me of this:
Sikhs Become a Casualty of Anti-Muslim Actions


For Sikhs, often mistaken as Muslims, it's 'a hostile time, a scary time'

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Muslims aren't a race, so you can't be racist. But you can be bigoted.

Hating a religion doesn't make one a bigot though.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

The sad thing is that the cover is pro Muslim.

Ironic, like, actually ironic.

Also I think it's a false equivalence to act like saying "you've contributed to a societal disorder" means "you deserve whatever is coming to you." Holding someone accountable and punishing someone is not the same thing.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Hating a religion doesn't make one a bigot though.

Of course not, but hating the practitioners of a religion will make you a bigot.

 

[walking fiend]

Hating a religion doesn't make one a bigot though.

Assuming that everyone who calls himself/herself a Muslim is a person you can hate makes you a bigot. Actually, thinking that Islam is 'a' religion, that is it is a fixed religion that has no dynamism, makes you a bigot.

Ironic, like, actually ironic.

Also I think it's a false equivalence to act like saying "you've contributed to a societal disorder" means "you deserve whatever is coming to you." Holding someone accountable and punishing someone is not the same thing.

Just to prevent another accusation or mockery, I do not believe Charlie Hebdo deserves any kind of threat. They don't. No one deserves to be threatened for simply publishing a cartoon.

---
Anyway, I am tired of this discussion. Suit yourself to believe Charlie Hebdo has done something which will benefit the Muslims and subdue racism.

 

[MegaManTrigger]

I don't get the idea behind the comic. They're basically saying "lol fuck your beliefs, live life OUR way" in the guise of "just loosen up! xD", which is insanely ironic considering how steadfast they are in their freedom of speech in light of the attacks in 2015. Made even worse by the "burkini" ban that doesn't really make any sense at all (and further plays into France's history of having problems with minorities and integration of minorities into their society).

Maybe I'm missing the point, but I don't like the implications at all.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Assuming that everyone who calls himself/herself a Muslim is a person you can hate makes you a bigot. Actually, thinking that Islam is 'a' religion, that is it is a fixed religion that has no dynamism, makes you a bigot.

What conversation do you think you're participating in?

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

Assuming that everyone who calls himself/herself a Muslim is a person you can hate makes you a bigot. Actually, thinking that Islam is 'a' religion, that is it is a fixed religion that has no dynamism, makes you a bigot.


Just to prevent another accusation or mockery, I do not believe Charlie Hebdo deserves any kind of threat. They don't. No one deserves to be threatened for simply publishing a cartoon.

---
Anyway, I am tired of this discussion. Suit yourself to believe Charlie Hebdo has done something which will benefit the Muslims and subdue racism.

Because that's what anyone has been saying.

Funny how you skirted by Systolique.

I don't get the idea behind the comic. They're basically saying "lol fuck your beliefs, live life OUR way" in the guise of "just loosen up! xD", which is insanely ironic considering how steadfast they are in their freedom of speech in light of the attacks in 2015. Made even worse by the "burkini" ban that doesn't really make any sense at all (and further plays into France's history of having problems with minorities and integration of minorities into their society).

Maybe I'm missing the point, but I don't like the implications at all.

No, the people saying that are who they are mocking.

*drinks*

 

[remist]

I don't get the idea behind the comic. They're basically saying "lol fuck your beliefs, live life OUR way" in the guise of "just loosen up! xD", which is insanely ironic considering how steadfast they are in their freedom of speech in light of the attacks in 2015. Made even worse by the "burkini" ban that doesn't really make any sense at all (and further plays into France's history of having problems with minorities and integration of minorities into their society).

Maybe I'm missing the point, but I don't like the implications at all.

They are satirizing and making fun of just that view.. It's a satirical magazine.

 

[20cent]

Islamophobia is not racism like anticlericalism is not racism
Charlie is islamophobic like they are anticleric but they are not racist
Unfortunately some communitarian associations try to change the meaning of the word to be able to condamn all critics of islam as racist

I'm pretty sure that most "antisemitic" french are judeophobic/antizionist while claiming they have nothing against "jews".
But it doesn't count, everyone (government and jewish commitee) agree to call it antisemitism because "it is the same thing and has the same roots".
So if it applies to some, let apply it to everyone.

 

[Tubobutts]

People are genetically predisposed to be Muslim or Jewish or Christian or Jedi?

Well kind of since Jewish also describes an ethnicity and Jedi have to born with a high amount of midi-chlorians.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

They are satirizing and making fun of just that view.. It's a satirical magazine.

I think A lot of people are honestly missing this. Yes naked Muslims are ridiculous, expecting Muslims to abandon a pretty steadfast tenet of their faith because of public paranoia is ridiculous. That's the point. Just like the burkini ban is ridiculous.Admittedly, it's less a pro-Muslim piece as it is an anti-discrimination piece.

 

[Mael]

I'm pretty sure that most "antisemitic" french are judeophobic/antizionist while claiming they have nothing against "jews".
But it doesn't count, everyone (government and jewish commitee) agree to call it antisemitism because "it is the same thing and has the same roots".
So if it applies to some, let apply it to everyone.

This is getting old.
The reason we call it antisemitism it's because it's really the same thing.
There is really no difference between an antizionist or judeophobic or whatever crap you wanna call it and antisemitism when they use the same code and same caricature.

 

[MegaManTrigger]

They are satirizing and making fun of just that view.. It's a satirical magazine.

No, the people saying that are who they are mocking.

*drinks*

The problem is the point that the comic tries to communicate/satirize, ends up being poorly communicated in the end. If the whole point is about attacking the thought that you can simply reform islam by attacking religious beliefs, then why highlight the burkini ban, and then draw muslims in the nude? At that point, the message becomes less about attacking the expectation that people can abandon aspects of faith in the hope of restoring public order, and seemingly more about attacking the idea that Islam consists of "prudish" views. I would wager this miscommunication is exactly why they've received death threats (just to clarify, I'm not justifying the death threats because no one should have to be issued a death threat, just that the message misses the point it's trying to make and as a result, comes across as incendiary to Muslims when the intention may not have been to be incendiary in the first place).

 

[heliosRAzi]

Well kind of since Jewish also describes an ethnicity and Jedi have to born with a high amount of midi-chlorians.

But what's the threshold for the midichlorians regarding Jedism? Is it 1000? 2000? 10,000? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

They're making fun of the idea that you can reform Islam just by banning them from wearing certain items of clothing.

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

The problem is the point that the comic tries to communicate/satirize, ends up being poorly communicated in the end. If the whole point is about attacking the thought that you can simply reform islam by attacking religious beliefs, then why highlight the burkini ban, and then draw muslims in the nude?

Because its satirically mocking peoples stereotypes of Muslims.

At that point, the message becomes less about attacking the expectation that people can abandon aspects of faith in the hope of restoring public order, and seemingly more about attacking the idea that Islam consists of "prudish" views. I would wager this miscommunication is exactly why they've received death threats (just to clarify, I'm not justifying the death threats because no one should have to be issued a death threat, just that the message misses the point it's trying to make and as a result, comes across as incendiary to Muslims when the intention may not have been to be incendiary in the first place).

That's the joke.

Shit son satire and irony are dead.