I think that's worth another thread honestly. o_o
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Clinton aides blame loss on FBI, media, sexism, Bernie, everything but themselves
- Thread starter chubigans
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I think that's worth another thread honestly. o_o
Hindsight is a wonderful tool if you're willing to view yourself in a self-critical light like myself, where at times I allowed myself to descend into an echo chamber not just regarding this election, but with Brexit, and with the general election I had in my home country. Three times I refused to or was ignorant of the reality around me this year, and on all three times I got burned, and quite rightly for not paying attention to what was going on, going as far as to say that I'm embarrassed to allow myself to fall to that level as someone who likes to think that I can think on a rational level and not impulse.
The democrats, from having a brief look at the Post-Morton of this election, sound like they got complacent, believing that a win was inevitable, when in truth the top brass dropped the ball hard, and simply refused to believe they could lose. If they're not willing to accept their screw-up on a national level, then frankly, they deserve to lose. In any case, what's done is done and it's more about moving forward now. I definitely know I will after the politics of this year and just stick to political observations, rather than working myself up too much to the point of not thinking impartially.
The democrats, from having a brief look at the Post-Morton of this election, sound like they got complacent, believing that a win was inevitable, when in truth the top brass dropped the ball hard, and simply refused to believe they could lose. If they're not willing to accept their screw-up on a national level, then frankly, they deserve to lose. In any case, what's done is done and it's more about moving forward now. I definitely know I will after the politics of this year and just stick to political observations, rather than working myself up too much to the point of not thinking impartially.
Wasn't that Bernie?
Hope he wises the fuck up. Otherwise we'll lose again and again.
It's hard to acknowledge that Hillary may have been a really bad choice for some reasons that really weren't her fault. It's no secret that the Democratic candidate, whomever it would be, would be pitted against a party that has mastered the art of shamelessly and relentlessly finding and exploiting bullshit scandals, with a happily complicit media, and to great success. Surely they must have realized that the years of baggage a candidate like Hillary Clinton has would be a huge liability. What exactly was supposed to be so special about Hillary Clinton aside from being a woman to run that risk anyway, despite these obvious dangers, I have no idea. I guess it was "her time" or something. sigh...
Clinton's opponent:
There was no excuse for this to not be a near blowout.
The theory was that Hillary's baggage was so well known and worn out that it couldn't hurt her any more than it already had. The email + Wikileaks + FBI proved to just enough to keep scandal on the front page.
theignoramus
Member
Its interesting to see the total lack of humility and introspection from elite media the last few days. They wont learn.
Black Republican
Member
didnt most of the Obama team help out with Hillary?
because if so, then i guess there was no saving her :/
because if so, then i guess there was no saving her :/
orthodoxy1095
Banned
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
One of the stupidest things about modern politics is the way in which voters have been trained to be media consumers and pundits first and foremost, and actual citizens a distant second. Ideally we would decide on questions like what is right and what is wrong, and what is true and what is false without internalizing bullshit media narratives about optics and lazy horse-whispering about "what will the white working class think?". "Don't alienate the white working class or else" or whatever your threat/categorical imperative actually is, is either a symptom of a particular form of modern political pathology or a declaration of racist intent. I don't particularly care to parse which one it is. Good luck re-electing The Donald; I'm sure it'll go brilliantly.
funkystudent
Member
My hot take on this election for months has beem
- Just about any democratic nominee would have easily beaten Trump
- Clinton was the only democratic nominee who could realistically lose.
- Clinton was always on rocky ground even if she won here she was a almost for sure 1 term president.
DNC where fools to take Trump as lightly as they did and just expect voters to vote for them without doing the campaign work.
At the very least let this election be the evidence that votes have to be earned. If you just assume success based on the past and dont put in the work to keep those people then you might as well expect those voters to not show up.
This was a election lost due to over confidence and hubris. Plain and simple. The DNC utterly failed to course correct after 2008 when Hillary lost to Obama and grow new faces but instead just did the same shit again and it blew up in their face.
- Just about any democratic nominee would have easily beaten Trump
- Clinton was the only democratic nominee who could realistically lose.
- Clinton was always on rocky ground even if she won here she was a almost for sure 1 term president.
DNC where fools to take Trump as lightly as they did and just expect voters to vote for them without doing the campaign work.
At the very least let this election be the evidence that votes have to be earned. If you just assume success based on the past and dont put in the work to keep those people then you might as well expect those voters to not show up.
This was a election lost due to over confidence and hubris. Plain and simple. The DNC utterly failed to course correct after 2008 when Hillary lost to Obama and grow new faces but instead just did the same shit again and it blew up in their face.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Pretty much this. So many of us were feeling the Bern during the primaries. The DNC just made a huge mistake by actively favoring Hillary over him and hampering his campaign. In the end that cost them the election and allowed Trump to win.
Hillary is just a terrible candidate, she always has been.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
If you don't like it, you should invest time into changing the way people around you consume media.
Ideally a lot of things would be different about the world and about how politics work. Reality is where we live though. Try living there and working within those bounds.
It's not a threat nor racist intent. It's a realistic view of the demographics of the electorate. You cannot alienate a massive part of the electorate by refusing to engage them and speak to their fears. It's a recipe for Electoral disaster, which is exactly what we got.
The people who will be ultimately re-electing Donald Trump are liberals with their head in the sand like you who refuse to think critically about themselves and about the way this election went.
theignoramus
Member
Jamelle Bouie from Slate is one of the worst establishment hack journalists on twitter. He spent the entire election cycle dismissing the possibility of a Trump presidency with smug arrogance and now he's blocking everyone who points out how egregiously wrong he was. How are his editors even allowing him to continue prognosticating on the future when he was off by a mile?
Some haven't learned a damn thing apparently.
Thats why identity politics is a flawed worldview. What those candidates had in common was not skin color, gender, etc. It was something political.
Fuck Jamelle Bouie. He carried water for Hillary the entire Primary. And then two days before the election was like "oh, I voted for Bernie"
Dumb motherfucker.
Michigan also had a lot of ballots with down ticket votes but no president pick.
At least I think it was Michigan.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
At the bare minimum, it would appear that at the least they all gave enough of a damn to try to excude the mere appearance of caring about the state, campaigning there and the hearing the issues of those 13 counties.
It was. People kept blaming the third parties in that state, but I think the stat was that there were enough ballots with no presidential picks that it could have turned the state to Clinton if they had voted for her. So it was a bit over 100,000 ballots I think.
You can cry about the Midwest whites having white privilege as much as you want (and they do not face many issues poor minorities face or even wealthy minorities face) but as of right now that white priveledge is not putting food on their tables. They don't give a fuck about identity politics when they are struggling to feed themselves and their families.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Indeed. Campaign in every state, never take anything for granted.
Making assumptions is exactly what cost Dems the election. Instead they lost on a fluke, a perfect storm even, but still a loss.
They need a ton of fresh blood in the ranks, because the political climate is going to change rapidly over the next year or so.
UnemployedVillain
Member
And the same could be said of the reverse. Stuff like "Bernie or Bust" and the rise of "Occupy Democrats" and their crazed almost-radical left wing movement, helped breed animosity between the two camps as well. Denying that only feeds to the idea people have of Bernie fans having a persecution complex, and claiming it was most people is being disingenuous.
But this shit was cancerous on both sides and had the unfortunate consequence of probably causing divisions within a party that should have been united behind whoever actually got the nomination
Really it's on Clinton and her supporters to extend the olive branch and make nice. Here and elsewhere the message was "Fuck you racist sexist pig, get in line. Or not. We don't need your votes."
What do you expect the response to thst to look like.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Him coming out in favor of the Sanders endorsed Ellison to lead the DNC is a good sign that he's learning.
aygomyownroad
Member
The Democrats need to change things massively for next time. The big worry is that Trump gets investment in the Rust Belt and that solidifies his position there.
They need to be honest and have a very thorough investigation, and rather than pick someone and steamroll them into the position they need to do what the Republicans did. Allow a load of them to run for the position and allow the public to whittle them down.
They need to be honest and have a very thorough investigation, and rather than pick someone and steamroll them into the position they need to do what the Republicans did. Allow a load of them to run for the position and allow the public to whittle them down.
UnemployedVillain
Member
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're acting like the hate was purely one way. People who actually cared about the issues and weren't simply candidate stans would have been able to make amends
He called her a knucklehead xD
BTW, I haven't really watched MSNBC for years. It's FOX News for Democrats (aka an echo chamber)
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Yep. It's been said that they're supporting Kaine, and that's a bad idea. He's not going to win a primary unless he's rammed down voter's throats, and he'll just lose the presidency anyway.
Find a slew of the most promising candidates for the primary, take a hands-off approach, and see how it goes down.
You mean Bernie Sanders
SolidSnakex
Member
It just says that Obama's victories were a lot more about him and Biden than it was about those around them. You can't prop up someone that people don't want no matter how talented the individuals are around that person. You think there's a chance in hell Biden would've ever allowed Obama to think for a second that it was a good idea to not talk to the white working class?
I've had to put up with so much dumb shit from one some of my friends.
- Vote rigging accusations based on exit polls.
- Blaming Clinton for reducing polling places in Arizona, a GOP-controlled state.
- Blaming Clinton for Democrats being removed from the voter rolls.
- The completely goddamn insane meltdown in Nevada and blaming it on the chair there.
They were beyond reason, fueled almost 100% by the echo chamber of reddit. The primary wasn't close because Bernie hired a terrible, terrible campaign manager and couldn't get any tractions with the demographic groups that make up the majority of the democratic party. Bernie had no hope of getting the nomination after mid-March, but he stuck around to get his message out there, while inadvertently fueling the burn-it-all-down mentality.
The real tragedy was Clinton becoming too much of a concensus candidate for 90% of the party powerbase a year in advance. She kept every other good candidate in the party from even running. She probably would have won without the help, but maybe it would have staved off the extreme animosity that still lingers.
But that's the past. Bernie's dreams are dead for the rest of his life.
perfectchaos007
Member
The DNC could have had a stronger candidate run for president if they actually held a fair primary process. People like Donna Brazille and possibly others were giving her inside and classified info to ensure victory. I would compare her primary win to Lance Armstrong at the tour de france. They both still had to race...but due to the unfair advantages each of them had, the outcome was all but certain from the starting line.
Maybe the DNC in the future shouldn't just try to give the nomination to who they feel is next in line and instead allow the people to decide in a fair primary process. They'll be rewarded by having the truly best democratic candidate to take on their opponent in the general election.
Maybe the DNC in the future shouldn't just try to give the nomination to who they feel is next in line and instead allow the people to decide in a fair primary process. They'll be rewarded by having the truly best democratic candidate to take on their opponent in the general election.
legacyzero
Banned
I hope to see GAF take non-establishment media more seriously. Channels like Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk, The Young Turks, etc, had this election nailed down, and they were mocked by Hillary supporters. Love me or hate em, hey we're spot on. It's just unfortunate that this had to happen for it to be realized.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Whatever they do I think trying to find the candidate right now is premature. They should give it a year, and then start pruning their list, asking potentials about their aspirations, etc. I'd rather not have a reactive prime candidate and rather one considered after they'd had time to FULLY process what went wrong with Clinton, right with Trump, etc
For the past months: "If you don't support Clinton you're a trump supporter that's racist, sexist and probably a rapist." Also, "fuck white people." Horrible attitude to have.
That was generally the air around Clinton. "I'm with her" how pretentious is that? So many people were pushed right into Trump's hands.
That was generally the air around Clinton. "I'm with her" how pretentious is that? So many people were pushed right into Trump's hands.
Bernie would not have lost the rust belt like she did. This was evident from the primaries. Keep blaming him and his supporters though. She was a shit candidate.
Hillary beat Bernie overall in the four Rust Belt states in Pledged Delegates. Don't try to change history. Two for Bernie, and two for Hillary, by larger vote & delegate margins, and then almost every other Battleground state over Bernie, too.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Ehhh, I don't know why people love The Young Turks so much. Just because they talk in seemingly calm and collected manner, doesn't mean some of them aren't nuts super left wing conspiracy theorists. Half the shit they said about Clinton came down to IMPLICATIONS because despite years of evidence and literally leaked emails, they could never actually find direct connections for anything
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
Christ. This whole thread is pretty much why I started to stay clear of any political threads on GAF. When people had the nerve to suggest that it might not be the best thing to say, they were met with:
But hey, that's the poligaf bubble in a nutshell, I guess.
Bingo. And in their thread, there are still some calling for Howard Dean to come back in the fold (which would just be SUPER).
You do realize more people than just party members vote in the general, right?
Byakuya769
Member
Not a critique, but a question: are there any stats on the economic demographics of these alleged swing voters? Or is this just going to become conventional wisdom?
Adam_Vania
Banned
lol sure. the guy who still has a job in the senate, who has been working for his dreams for decades, through Reagan, through both Bushes, his dreams are dead. right.
the guy everyone blamed for fucking things up and even then he stepped down and campaigned for those same people -- all bc getting shit done is more important to him than gratifying his ego by winning an election -- yeah, his dreams are still alive. the only dream that is dead is Hillary being President. that is not the only dream worth fighting for.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Oh yeah, because Bernie's base definitely wasn't also an "elite liberal thought bubble". Please. It's amazing people are claiming the primary season animosity didn't cause any issues when even way after the election there are still people split along Bernie vs Hillary, when by now we should be Reasonable people vs Republicans.
Bernie or Biden would have wiped the floor with Trump.
Bernie fans knew he was cheated out of the election. DNC wanted Clinton and they did everything possible (without making super obvious) to make it happen.
Bernie fans knew he was cheated out of the election. DNC wanted Clinton and they did everything possible (without making super obvious) to make it happen.
legacyzero
Banned
How much smoke do you need to see before you'll admit there's fire.
Sure, they're a bit extreme, but they fuckin called it. Time to pull your fingers out your ears.
It's that same kind of thought Bernie bubble that got Trump elected. People wanted a populist. They got it. How are are you still in such denial? LOL
I can only hope you can grow your nose back after cutting it off to spite your face, at least before the midterms
yep
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOJ3bzbuYMs;t=8m50s
this was in july and these were the predictions:
280 to 258 with Clinton winning
332 to 206 with Clinton winning (and that was her "conservative" map....lawd)
269 to 269 tie which is reasonable in hindsight and everyone else was shocked
323 to 215 with Clinton winning
279 to 259 with Trump winning which was Cenk's prediction to the shock of everyone
Another Clinton campaign email: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/...ey-letters-threw-the-election-to-trump-231244
“We believe that we lost this election in the last week."
Lots more in the link.
“We believe that we lost this election in the last week."
Lots more in the link.
Adam_Vania
Banned
em.... eh? Sanders got his first big national spotlight during the 2008 bailout, railing against the big banks on CSPAN. millions heard about this and tuned in to watch him do this live on the floor of the senate. it was a viral, authentic display of a politician actually making a stand.
this is the definition of railing against the liberal thought bubble. contrast this to Hillary explaining how she would fight poverty by writing a NYTimes op-ed piece.
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