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COMICS!!! |OT| April 2017 - Now Featuring Superstar Artist Brett Booth - APRIL FOALS!

W

whatsinaname

Member
Sandfox said:
That's a nice tagline.
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Confirmation that SG is now in the big leagues.

lNibncR.png
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M

MHWilliams

Member
Messi said:
No Wasp :/

Ben Grimm is very telling lol
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I wonder if they'll bring Grimm and Human Torch together with a new Fantastic Four, but leave Reed and co outside of reality.

Crimson_Echidna said:
If the team that did that one Monsters Unleashed issue take over full time, I'd be happy.
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I think that was Jeremy Whitley, who did the excellent Iron Fist/Misty Knight in Marvel's Secret Love and currently writes Unstoppable Wasp.
 
E

ElNarez

Banned
I can't give a shit about Marvel anymore. Like, the double punch of Civil War II and Secret Empire has broken something in the way I see these comics. I'm not excited about the Marvel universe as a space where stories happen anymore. I fucking swear by Al Ewing and all that he does, and I chose to not buy the latest U.S.Avengers.

I don't know how Marvel fixes it. Then again, maybe that's how some of y'all felt about DC at some point, and Rebirth seems to have fixed that. So maybe Legacy is gonna work?
 
S

Sandfox

Member
ElNarez said:
I can't give a shit about Marvel anymore. Like, the double punch of Civil War II and Secret Empire has broken something in the way I see these comics. I'm not excited about the Marvel universe as a space where stories happen anymore. I fucking swear by Al Ewing and all that he does, and I chose to not buy the latest U.S.Avengers.

I don't know how Marvel fixes it. Then again, maybe that's how some of y'all felt about DC at some point, and Rebirth seems to have fixed that. So maybe Legacy is gonna work?
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Marvel is going to have to rebuild fan trust with Legacy.
 
E

ElNarez

Banned
Yeah, and considering their last attempt at regaining trust was the X-Men relaunch that gave us X-Men Gold #1, which was a bad comic even before all the fucked-up religious bigotry, I think the thing that's broken is way further up in the chain. It's a process thing that starts with editorial.

Rebirth didn't work just because Geoff Johns made a really good one-shot. It came on the back of a couple of years of showing they could do the work and rethink how they were running their line. Before Rebirth, there was the embracing of the Fletcher-Stewart-Tarr Batgirl, there was The Omega Men, there even was a Levitz and Liew Doctor Fate run that somehow got 18 issues.

What does Marvel have, in terms of rebuilding goodwill? The fact they're still publishing Squirrel Girl? Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur? The half-dozen books that they killed after getting enough for one trade because they realized that they sent them to die without marketing?
 
E

ElNarez

Banned
Somehow in the post above I forgot the ACO/Orlando Midnighter run, which basically just set the goddamn standard for an action comic in this decade.
 
M

mreddie

Member
ElNarez said:
Yeah, and considering their last attempt at regaining trust was the X-Men relaunch that gave us X-Men Gold #1, which was a bad comic even before all the fucked-up religious bigotry, I think the thing that's broken is way further up in the chain. It's a process thing that starts with editorial.

Rebirth didn't work just because Geoff Johns made a really good one-shot. It came on the back of a couple of years of showing they could do the work and rethink how they were running their line. Before Rebirth, there was the embracing of the Fletcher-Stewart-Tarr Batgirl, there was The Omega Men, there even was a Levitz and Liew Doctor Fate run that somehow got 18 issues.

What does Marvel have, in terms of rebuilding goodwill? The fact they're still publishing Squirrel Girl? Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur? The half-dozen books that they killed after getting enough for one trade because they realized that they sent them to die without marketing?
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Cap. Tony. Hulk.

Thor Jane and the others are ok but they need to build those 3 back up . Thing is, all they need is the right person.

Fraction helped rebuild Tony post CW1.
Pak basically gave Hulk the best run since David.
And of course, Brubaker's Cap.

Yes, the Spencer stink to some will go away but even then, who picks up the ship? Aaron? Hopeless? Fucking Slott?

With Rebirth, they had solid teams and majority stayed when they flipped to Rebirth.

The glory days of NOW 1.0 are gone and the A players jumped to Image. Basically a Super Bowl winning team that has split apart and you got interesting draft picks. Marvel picked up free agents but you can only do so much.

DAMMIT, I WENT TO FOOTBALL MODE AGAIN.

Basically, this means jackshit unless they can get the right people to the right books. And of course, MARKETING THE FUCKING BOOKS.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
ElNarez said:
Yeah, and considering their last attempt at regaining trust was the X-Men relaunch that gave us X-Men Gold #1, which was a bad comic even before all the fucked-up religious bigotry, I think the thing that's broken is way further up in the chain. It's a process thing that starts with editorial.

Rebirth didn't work just because Geoff Johns made a really good one-shot. It came on the back of a couple of years of showing they could do the work and rethink how they were running their line. Before Rebirth, there was the embracing of the Fletcher-Stewart-Tarr Batgirl, there was The Omega Men, there even was a Levitz and Liew Doctor Fate run that somehow got 18 issues.

What does Marvel have, in terms of rebuilding goodwill? The fact they're still publishing Squirrel Girl? Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur? The half-dozen books that they killed after getting enough for one trade because they realized that they sent them to die without marketing?
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We've run this pendulum back and forth between Marvel and DC for decades. The New 52 slump was 2012 until around 2015 running up to Rebirth. And what happened in that time? Marvel Now in 2012. It'll be fine and in three years we'll be kvetching about DC again for whatever reason.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
MHWilliams said:
We've run this pendulum back and forth between Marvel and DC for decades. The New 52 slump was 2012 until around 2015 running up to Rebirth. And what happened in that time? Marvel Now in 2012. It'll be fine and in three years we'll be kvetching about DC again for whatever reason.
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Tick. Tock.
 
T

TheDarkKnight774

Member
MHWilliams said:
We've run this pendulum back and forth between Marvel and DC for decades. The New 52 slump was 2012 until around 2015 running up to Rebirth. And what happened in that time? Marvel Now in 2012. It'll be fine and in three years we'll be kvetching about DC again for whatever reason.
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Yup. It always swings back and forth. And in rare instances they both are good. I will say this is the longest down time I can recall from marvel in ages

Marvels down right now mainly due to a lack of top talent. D.C. Seems to have the talent where Marvel hasn't recovered from everyone leaving to do image books. I think in the end that matters more than linewide themes, editorial decisions, etc.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
For example, here's a small ride through the Marvel nightmares: Secret Wars II. Post Operation Galactic Storm all the way to The Crossing and Heroes Reborn, which includes Onslaught. The Clone Saga to Maximum Carnage. Chuck Austen's X-Men. Loeb on the Ultimate books.

DC Comics dire eras: Invasion, Bloodlines, Armageddon 2001, Countdown to Final Crisis, Our World at War in Superman, Cry for Goddamn Justice, Post-Launch New 52.

Sure, there are good books in those eras - Hitman coming out of Bloodlines for example - but by and large, they were pretty bad.
 
S

Sandfox

Member
TheDarkKnight774 said:
Yup. It usually swings back and forth. And in rare instances they both are good

Marvels down right now mainly due to a lack of top talent. D.C. Seems to have the talent where Marvel hasn't recovered from everyone leaving to do image books. I think in the end that matters more than linewide themes, editorial decisions, etc.
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IMO Marvel's issue is a lack of direction and familiarity. There's reason why some writers started putting out better work when Rebirth started. Marvel could stand to bring in some more talent(and they likely will), but I think they have a decent enough stable depending on how they plan to use them.
 
Z

Zombine

Banned
I think what Marvel needs are thoughtful creative choices and books that go back to basics. I don't mean books that go back to basics that lead to Civil War III: Time Displaced Cataclysm. I mean thoughtful storylines that don't always need to be epic in scale, that relate to the audience and embrace positive creative ideas.

Right now, Marvel is a fucking shithole. I didn't even read a ton of New 52, and even at it's "worst" I don't think that it was even a fraction as god awful as this Frankenstein's Monster that Marvel has created. Their talent pool is fucking terrible, their most "Marvel" book (Renew Your Vows) takes place in an alternate timeline that doesn't matter, and their focus on solos and characters from franchises that have received a movie or a show are god fucking awful.

Marvel's "weird" books shouldn't be Mosiac or fucking USAvengers or whatever stupid idea they come up with. It should be Ghost Rider, or Man-Thing, or Strange Tales, or one of their other legacy titles that ran for hundreds of issues. Bring back Tomb of Dracula, bring back Monster of Frankestein with a really dope creative team like Del Mundo & Aaron. Make positive fucking choices and they won't be the laughingstock of the comic industry right now.

I'm at a point where I'm sitting here looking at an upstart like Alterna Comics going "wow, these dudes with no money are more inspired than Marvel right now." And it's pretty pathetic.

Want to earn some good will? Run a magazine like 2000AD for your new talent. Let them tell the little stories they want to tell without burdening them with a "make or break" 24 page monthly release. Short form storytelling works, and the creative and characters that resonate with readers of that magazine can then go on to get their own full release.

I'm laying here at 2:30am EST after waking up temporary for a drink of water coming up with better ideas then they do sitting around a table at work for 8 hours looking at one another bobble heading and brown nosing to Brevort and Axel and all the other dudes at the top.
 
E

ElNarez

Banned
Zombine said:
Want to earn some good will? Run a magazine like 2000AD for your new talent. Let them tell the little stories they want to tell without burdening them with a "make or break" 24 page monthly release. Short form storytelling works, and the creative and characters that resonate with readers of that magazine can then go on to get their own full release.

I'm laying here at 2:30am EST after waking up temporary for a drink of water coming up with better ideas then they do sitting around a table at work for 8 hours looking at one another bobble heading and brown nosing to Brevort and Axel and all the other dudes at the top.
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wait do you mean some sort of New Talent Showcase
 
B

BKatastrophe

Member
My roommate turned me on to Stranger Things. 5 eps in and this is the most "do you like FICTION?" Show that I've watched since Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Also I can't get excited for anything Marvel does anymore. 3 Wolverines running around (4 if you count Daken), and you bring the OG back anyway. Why bother getting excited for anything new when it's just going to be back to being old again.
Zombine said:
Fearless Defenders will always be the biggest Marvel Now travesty. I feel blessed though, because if that came out now there wouldn't be enough material for a single trade.
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Book was boring as fuck
 
S

Sandfox

Member
BKatastrophe said:
My roommate turned me on to Stranger Things. 5 eps in and this is the most "do you like FICTION?" Show that I've watched since Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Also I can't get excited for anything Marvel does anymore. 3 Wolverines running around (4 if you count Daken), and you bring the OG back anyway. Why bother getting excited for anything new when it's just going to be back to being old again.

Book was boring as fuck
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That's superhero comics for you.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Zombine said:
Marvel's "weird" books shouldn't be Mosiac or fucking USAvengers or whatever stupid idea they come up with. It should be Ghost Rider, or Man-Thing, or Strange Tales, or one of their other legacy titles that ran for hundreds of issues. Bring back Tomb of Dracula, bring back Monster of Frankestein with a really dope creative team like Del Mundo & Aaron. Make positive fucking choices and they won't be the laughingstock of the comic industry right now.
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That shit would bomb out even quicker. You know it. I know it.

I mean, let's look at the solid books of the April 2017 solicits.

X-Men Blue
All-New Wolverine
Uncanny Avengers
Mighty Thor
Spider-Man
Renew Your Vows
Amazing (Some my argue this, but it sells.)
Ms. Marvel
Jessica Jones
Doctor Strange
Moon Knight
Squirrel Girl
Black Panther
Unstoppable Wasp
Deadpool
Old Man Logan
Maybe the Iron Men

That's not a horrible list by any means. The problem is it's also not a super exciting one?

Nominal issues:

- Waid is currently boring on Champions and Avengers, both of which should be anchors for the entire line.
- Coates is hot, but we don't really need three Black Panther books. Or four Deadpool books. Or two Doctor Strange books.
- Scarlet Spider is the Peter David charity book
- Both Captain America books are dour as sad because of Secret Empire
- No one cares about the Inhumans, Monsters Unleashed, third-tier Avengers (Occupy, USA, Great Lakes, and sadly Ultimates)
- Hulk is entirely too slow a burn in today's market.
- Silk and Spider-Man 2099 probably need to go.
- The Guardians solo books will always be a bad idea. If you want to tell solo stories, bring back back-ups in the main book.

Off the top of my head, I'd group books up into Classic/New pairings given how legacy is going.

Avengers - Champions
Iron Man - Ironheart
Thor Odinson - Jane Thor
Captain America - Captain America (Sam)
Captain Marvel - Ms. Marvel
Spider-Man - Spider-Man (Miles) - Renew Your Vows - Spider-Gwen (This is in order of sales, you want to drop one or two, start from the bottom.)

Then you have the one off books:

Deadpool
Daredevil
Dr. Strange
Squirrel Girl
Hulk (Put Banner and Cho in one book)
Black Panther
Guardians of the Galaxy
Defenders

Together, Avengers, Champions, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Defenders are your gateway books, covering classic Marvel heroes, the new blood, cosmic Marvel, and street Marvel respectively. I'd like a magic book too, but I have no ideas of a solid team for that. You want to do new characters and ideas? Do them inside these books. If you find one that has a bit of heat, give them a mini to see how it goes. That's your core and your work from there as needed.
 
S

Sandfox

Member
BKatastrophe said:
Phalanx Covenant is good as long as it isn't an Excalibur issue. Which is like half of Phalanx Covenant.

This is different. DC feels dedicated. This is just throwing shit at the wall.

Stiff dialogue and action scenes make for a boring read. Cool concepts in a very dull wrapping that didn't live up to it's potential because the mechanics weren't there.
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I think that describes Marvel Now, but I wouldn't really use it for Legacy based on what we know so far. Bringing the older heroes back to prominence and giving them books is something that needed to happen IMO. Of course there's still a lot we need to learn about Legacy though.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
Sandfox said:
I think that describes Marvel Now, but I wouldn't really use it for Legacy based on what we know so far. Bringing the older heroes back to prominence and giving them books is something that needed to happen IMO. Of course there's still a lot we need to learn about Legacy though.
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I mostly hope they don't switch back to the old costumes like both banners point at. I enjoy the newer costumes for Captain America and Thor, and Iron Man always needs to be updating.
 
S

Sandfox

Member
MHWilliams said:
I mostly hope they don't switch back to the old costumes like both banners point at. I enjoy the newer costumes for Captain America and Thor, and Iron Man always needs to be updating.
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I would expect new costumes.

Freezasaurus said:
Pfffft. Just one? I'm betting on at least three before the movie even comes out.
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If they stick with the legacy numbering it technically wouldn't be relaunching lol. The perfect plan.
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
They will keep trying until they either find a take that sticks or the movie takes off and they retcon Carol into that version like Star-Lord.
 
F

Freezasaurus

Member
MHWilliams said:
They will keep trying until they either find a take that sticks or the movie takes off and they retcon Carol into that version like Star-Lord.
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I don't know why Marvel is so insistent on pushing this one character other than that they're already invested in a movie. They seem a bit obsessed. Every time a Carol book doesn't take off, they just double down and try again. They'll have to accept the fact that she's unlikeable sooner or later, right? RIGHT?
 
P

PsychBat!

Banned
Freezasaurus said:
I don't know why Marvel is so insistent on pushing this one character other than that they're already invested in a movie. They seem a bit obsessed. Every time a Carol book doesn't take off, they just double down and try again. They'll have to accept the fact that she's unlikeable sooner or later, right? RIGHT?
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Isn't she the most popular superhero? yaaaas queen right?
 
L

LordOfLore

Banned
Freezasaurus said:
I don't know why Marvel is so insistent on pushing this one character other than that they're already invested in a movie. They seem a bit obsessed. Every time a Carol book doesn't take off, they just double down and try again. They'll have to accept the fact that she's unlikeable sooner or later, right? RIGHT?
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I think they're still pissed KSD didn't want to stay on post-SW for 2-4 more years.
 
C

caliph95

Member
Freezasaurus said:
I don't know why Marvel is so insistent on pushing this one character other than that they're already invested in a movie. They seem a bit obsessed. Every time a Carol book doesn't take off, they just double down and try again. They'll have to accept the fact that she's unlikeable sooner or later, right? RIGHT?
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If at first you don't succeed plus people clearly couldn't handle Monica the superior captain
 
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