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Dark Souls III [Opening Cinematic]
- Thread starter KZXcellent
- Start date
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
Still on the fence about playing the Japanese version first. Gha I want it so bad!
Orochinagis
Member
Three times, in a row
Retrozocker
Member
I just...
came.
Mr. Poolman
Member
You guys wanting the Chosen Undead to return... I fear a fully powered, full-crowned Bearer of the Curse. THAT would be so cool.
Orochinagis
Member
I want to believe we would see the Bearer of the curse (DsK2 chosen undead) rather than the Chosen undead
He was a primeval human, of course everything revolves about him. It's already said that every daughter of chaos have a trait of humanity (fear, etc). So they are basically pieces of the original soul (Manus) that's why they are the daughters.
The rest you name aren't anything like Manus, just humans affected by the Dark (four kings, darkwraiths) or cultist of it.
[DARK SOULS SPOILERS, obviously]
So for DS1, rewatch the intro video first because it sets up things very nicely and the current video is paralleling it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lmEqpgg3B4
So in the beginning, the world essentially equaled out to null, and was populated solely by immortal stone dragons, more gods or phantoms than lifeforms.
Then there was Fire. We don't know why it appeared, but it did, and in DS terms "Fire" is the fundamental introduction of both life and the possibility of death. It is also very small, and fragile. If you look at the world before Fire in the video, you see it is ashen, there are trees but not the kind I imagine would burn very well.
So Fire needs some tinder to keep going.
But to back up a second, consider that opening scenario. Fire appears, and with it new life. The lifeforms that are born are drawn to Fire, their creator, the reason for their existence. Though we have established that the Fire is weak and transient, some of the lifeforms (including the first one to experience mortality) divide the flames up among themselves. They gain great power by doing so, and they also leave some grimy, mostly dark embers behind, which one small wretch collects for itself, and drops out of the story.
The Lords, holders of the Fire's pieces, wage war with the stone dragons. The reason for this is unknown, though I expect the dragons were trying to snuff out Fire, and return the world to a formless fog. This would of course not kill the new lifeforms, but remove them from existence, perhaps a far worse fate. One of the dragons, Seath, who was born deformed and scaleless, betrayed the rest of his kind, and with his help the Lords destroyed the dragons. There was now no one left to quash the Fire.
But even left alone, the Fire dwindles. As it fades, its grip on its constructions- life and death -begins to blur. People are born with a curse where they cannot die properly, but nor can they live as normal folks do. Half-alive, half-dead, Undead, they lose their memories and go mad, becoming Hollows. Their fates vary: some countries lock them away so they can't hurt anyone, some are so devastated that the Undead, and thus the Hollows, roam their decrepit ruins freely.
Likewise, if you consider that it is only from Fire that various nations and peoples sprang forth, then when the Fire is dying, these disparate existences begin to melt together, times and places that were once separate start melting back into a single formless pool, a formless fog. Gwyn, the leader of the Lords, took it upon himself to revive his piece of the Fire with his own body and soul. He burned himself as tinder for Fire, and turned all this tentative chaos back the way it should be.
The other Lords hung on to their own dwindling pieces, and lost their way. They never meant to use Fire for the gain of the world, only their own power. It was only Gwyn that understood their fate, but unfortunately as he only revived a piece, and because the Undead curse was already upon him, he was forced to burn for eternity, reviving endlessly, and going Hollow.
Several millennia later, enter the protagonist of Dark Souls. The protagonist is an Undead, which surely means that Gwyn hasn't much left to burn, and Fire is fading again. The protagonist is charged with enhancing Gwyn's original aim by of reviving Fire by collecting the souls/pieces of Fire from the other Lords as well. Upon doing this, and setting themselves alight in Gwyn's place, the protagonist provides another few thousand years of stability to the world.
But as you can see, this is a conundrum. It is not the world's natural state to have life and death and disparity. The Fire will always fade, given enough time. And in fact the protagonist's decision to relight the Fire is a mission given to them by Gwyn's friend, an ancient being called Frampt. Frampt is a serpent, described by the game as "an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead; its habit of devouring prey even larger than itself has led to an association with gluttony". Frampt has a counterpart the protagonist can meet under certain special conditions, another serpent named Kaathe.
Frampt tells you your fate is straightforward, to "link the Fire [this is an important word, it means to link the Fire to the next age], cast away the Dark, and undo the curse of the Undead". Your original purpose in your pilgrimage was to undo your Undead curse and prevent yourself from going Hollow, so this seems like a pretty good deal. Frampt says "may the Age of Fire perpetuate".
Kaathe, Frampt's counterpart, claims himself friend to a very different kind of Lord. Remember that wretch who clutched the grimy embers way back when after the other Lords had all taken their fill? That is the Furtive Pygmy, the progenitor of humankind. By claiming the dark embers, or to put it another way, by claiming the absence/ashes of the fire, the Pygmy became a secret Lord, a Dark Lord. The Dark Lord naturally has no fear of the Fire going out, and as the Fire fades, Darkness and the Pygmy's descendants (humans) become immeasurably stronger.
This is our introduction to the notion that the Fire going out does not necessarily return the world to a formless null state. Rather, the very first spark of Fire immeasurably altered the world, burnt and scarred it. Consider that there are no stone dragons anymore, only their various mutated descendants that arose, like the Lords, with Fire's appearance- nothing can be as it once was. So the alternative to Fire is not lifelessness and chaos, but rather an Age of Dark that will continue endlessly, no tinder required. Kaathe presents this course as natural, saying Gwyn's sacrifice was born for the sake of perpetuating his own kind and the power of his own lineage over that of the humans.
So Kaathe claims Frampt knew the Dark Lord as well, perhaps even arose alongside him (consider that their kind are symbols of the Undead). Frampt makes no mention of this. We know that serpents are reputed to be gluttonous, and perhaps in Gwyn's company Frampt found something he chose to covet, not for any selfless reason but simply because it appealed to him- endless Ages of Fire.
Ultimately the Age of Fire causes great misery, and the golden splendor of it (see: Anor Londo) is unnatural, if you happen to believe Kaathe. I would say we don't actually know what happens to humans and other lifeforms if Fire is allowed to go out, but luckily Dark Souls has two ending cutscenes - one of which shows what happens if you depose Gwyn, but do not replace him. You become the Dark Lord, and a legion of serpents praises you as you step out into a formless abyss. What happened to the other Undead, if the serpents were born from their curses, and what happened to non-cursed humans for that matter, is still unknown. But you came out pretty good right?
Both serpents offer you a personal incentive to do as they ask. The "canon" ending is presumably that you link the Fire to the next age, since that allows for the sequels.
-----
DS2 I can't give a summary on because I haven't finished the SOTFS edition, which I have heard better establishes the lore. As it stands it is very much a middle story- many people have linked the Fire before you, many probably will after.
-----
DS3:
Lords of Cinder = anyone who has linked the Fire to the next Age of Fire.
Pilgrims = Undead, most likely, trying to resolve their curse just as the Dark Souls protagonist wanted to
In this game it appears no particular hero has arisen to link the Fire, so (someone) is raising some gross Lord of Cinder zombies to get them to throw on the pile. There are five of them, based on the thrones in Firelink. But these zombies either can't or won't take their rightful places as further tinder for Fire. Instead, there is a new protagonist, an Unkindled, who seeks the remaining embers of the Lords of Cinder. What is not clear is the reason: the Unkindled is, at the start of the game, not fit to be burned for Fire's sake. So again you will probably making your own choice, to prolong the Age of Fire or usher in an Age of Dark for your own (human) sake.
The absence of a true hero like in Dark Souls, and the presumably profane raising of the past LOCs, suggests that the cycle of Fire has undergone some devastating mutations after being prolonged so many times.
-------------
One small aside for people who have seen this concept art -
This is Ludleth. He has proclaimed himself a Lord of Cinder, and is already sitting on one of the five thrones when the Unkindled arrives. He has donned a crown and is described as a "small, seedy man". This suggests to me that he has no idea what a Lord of Cinder actually is, only that they are powerful. It seems odd that someone would so boastfully claim a spot to be burned alive. On the other hand, he appears to have no feet, and FROM is certainly known for creating small, immobile, fragile-looking wretches that are often your strongest allies...
I am very interested to see what goes on with his character. =)
tl;dr - Trying to put another shrimp on the barbie.
[DARK SOULS SPOILERS, obviously]
So for DS1, rewatch the intro video first because it sets up things very nicely and the current video is paralleling it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lmEqpgg3B4
So in the beginning, the world essentially equaled out to null, and was populated solely by immortal stone dragons, more gods or phantoms than lifeforms.
Then there was Fire. We don't know why it appeared, but it did, and in DS terms "Fire" is the fundamental introduction of both life and the possibility of death. It is also very small, and fragile. If you look at the world before Fire in the video, you see it is ashen, there are trees but not the kind I imagine would burn very well.
So Fire needs some tinder to keep going.
But to back up a second, consider that opening scenario. Fire appears, and with it new life. The lifeforms that are born are drawn to Fire, their creator, the reason for their existence. Though we have established that the Fire is weak and transient, some of the lifeforms (including the first one to experience mortality) divide the flames up among themselves. They gain great power by doing so, and they also leave some grimy, mostly dark embers behind, which one small wretch collects for itself, and drops out of the story.
The Lords, holders of the Fire's pieces, wage war with the stone dragons. The reason for this is unknown, though I expect the dragons were trying to snuff out Fire, and return the world to a formless fog. This would of course not kill the new lifeforms, but remove them from existence, perhaps a far worse fate. One of the dragons, Seath, who was born deformed and scaleless, betrayed the rest of his kind, and with his help the Lords destroyed the dragons. There was now no one left to quash the Fire.
But even left alone, the Fire dwindles. As it fades, its grip on its constructions- life and death -begins to blur. People are born with a curse where they cannot die properly, but nor can they live as normal folks do. Half-alive, half-dead, Undead, they lose their memories and go mad, becoming Hollows. Their fates vary: some countries lock them away so they can't hurt anyone, some are so devastated that the Undead, and thus the Hollows, roam their decrepit ruins freely.
Likewise, if you consider that it is only from Fire that various nations and peoples sprang forth, then when the Fire is dying, these disparate existences begin to melt together, times and places that were once separate start melting back into a single formless pool, a formless fog. Gwyn, the leader of the Lords, took it upon himself to revive his piece of the Fire with his own body and soul. He burned himself as tinder for Fire, and turned all this tentative chaos back the way it should be.
The other Lords hung on to their own dwindling pieces, and lost their way. They never meant to use Fire for the gain of the world, only their own power. It was only Gwyn that understood their fate, but unfortunately as he only revived a piece, and because the Undead curse was already upon him, he was forced to burn for eternity, reviving endlessly, and going Hollow.
Several millennia later, enter the protagonist of Dark Souls. The protagonist is an Undead, which surely means that Gwyn hasn't much left to burn, and Fire is fading again. The protagonist is charged with enhancing Gwyn's original aim by of reviving Fire by collecting the souls/pieces of Fire from the other Lords as well. Upon doing this, and setting themselves alight in Gwyn's place, the protagonist provides another few thousand years of stability to the world.
But as you can see, this is a conundrum. It is not the world's natural state to have life and death and disparity. The Fire will always fade, given enough time. And in fact the protagonist's decision to relight the Fire is a mission given to them by Gwyn's friend, an ancient being called Frampt. Frampt is a serpent, described by the game as "an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead; its habit of devouring prey even larger than itself has led to an association with gluttony". Frampt has a counterpart the protagonist can meet under certain special conditions, another serpent named Kaathe.
Frampt tells you your fate is straightforward, to "link the Fire [this is an important word, it means to link the Fire to the next age], cast away the Dark, and undo the curse of the Undead". Your original purpose in your pilgrimage was to undo your Undead curse and prevent yourself from going Hollow, so this seems like a pretty good deal. Frampt says "may the Age of Fire perpetuate".
Kaathe, Frampt's counterpart, claims himself friend to a very different kind of Lord. Remember that wretch who clutched the grimy embers way back when after the other Lords had all taken their fill? That is the Furtive Pygmy, the progenitor of humankind. By claiming the dark embers, or to put it another way, by claimed the absence/ashes of the fire, the Pygmy became a secret Lord, a Dark Lord. The Dark Lord naturally has no fear of the Fire going out, and as the Fire fades, Darkness and the Pygmy's descendants (humans) become immeasurably stronger.
This is our introduction to the notion that the Fire going out does not necessarily return the world to a formless null state. Rather, the very first spark of Fire immeasurably altered the world, burnt and scarred it. Consider that there are no stone dragons anymore, only their various mutated descendants that arose, like the Lords, with Fire's appearance- nothing can be as it once was. So the alternative to Fire is not lifelessness and chaos, but rather an Age of Dark that will continue endlessly, no tinder required. Kaathe presents this course as natural, saying Gwyn's sacrifice was born for the sake of perpetuating his own kind and the power of his own lineage over that of the humans.
So Kaathe claims Frampt knew the Dark Lord as well, perhaps even arose alongside him (consider that their kind are symbols of the Undead). Frampt makes no mention of this. We know that serpents are reputed to be gluttonous, and perhaps in Gwyn's company Frampt found something he chose to covet, not for any selfless reason but simply because it appealed to him- endless Ages of Fire.
Ultimately the Age of Fire causes great misery, and the golden splendor of it (see: Anor Londo) is unnatural, if you happen to believe Kaathe. I would say we don't actually know what happens to humans and other lifeforms if Fire is allowed to go out, but luckily Dark Souls has two ending cutscenes - one of which shows what happens if you depose Gwyn, but do not replace him. You become the Dark Lord, and a legion of serpents praises you as you step out into a formless abyss. What happened to the other Undead, if the serpents were born from their curses, and what happened to non-cursed humans for that matter, is still unknown. But you came out pretty good right?
Both serpents offer you a personal incentive to do as they ask. The "canon" ending is presumably that you link the Fire to the next age, since that allows for the sequels.
-----
DS2 I can't give a summary on because I haven't finished the SOTFS edition, which I have heard better establishes the lore. As it stands it is very much a middle story- many people have linked the Fire before you, many probably will after.
-----
DS3:
Lords of Cinder = anyone who has linked the Fire to the next Age of Fire.
Pilgrims = Undead, most likely, trying to resolve their curse just as the Dark Souls protagonist wanted to
In this game it appears no particular hero has arisen to link the Fire, so (someone) is raising some gross Lord of Cinder zombies to get them to throw on the pile. There are five of them, based on the thrones in Firelink. But these zombies either can't or won't take their rightful places as further tinder for Fire. Instead, there is a new protagonist, an Unkindled, who seeks the remaining embers of the Lords of Cinder. What is not clear is the reason: the Unkindled is, at the start of the game, not fit to be burned for Fire's sake. So again you will probably making your own choice, to prolong the Age of Fire or usher in an Age of Dark for your own (human) sake.
The absence of a true hero like in Dark Souls, and the presumably profane raising of the past LOCs, suggests that the cycle of Fire has undergone some devastating mutations after being prolonged so many times.
-------------
One small aside for people who have seen this concept art -
This is Ludleth. He has proclaimed himself a Lord of Cinder, and is already sitting on one of the five thrones when the Unkindled arrives. He has donned a crown and is described as a "small, seedy man". This suggests to me that he has no idea what a Lord of Cinder actually is, only that they are powerful. It seems odd that someone would so boastfully claim a spot to be burned alive. On the other hand, FROM is certainly known for creating small, fragile-looking wretches that are often your strongest allies...
I am very interested to see what goes on with his character. =)
tl;dr - Trying to put another shrimp on the barbie.
Thanks for this, much appreciated!
Orochinagis
Member
Darklurker had a dark soul, he is the owner of the third dark chasm, The 4 kings fused with the dark and created a dark chasm too, the dark wraiths were servants and were able to learn to use the dark maybe in a brink of created their own chasm.
I agree manus for being a primeval have a stronger or awoke his soul faster but humans can do that too, thats the purpose of the Dark Souls being on humanity on first place
twozerotwo
Member
Ohhhhhhhhh man.
This might've just convinced me to import my copy to have it ASAP.
This might've just convinced me to import my copy to have it ASAP.
Already Torn
Banned
That's not a cycle, it's a linear path with an inevitable end. That's like the whole point of Dark Souls. Like the real world, everything moves towards darkness. You can only fleetingly prolong the flame.
Until it just starts again so we can get two sequels.
Humans also have a fragment of a dark soul, humanity comes from it after all. The difference is that Manus was THE Dark Soul, the source of it. That's why he's more important to the story and also why his Soul creates new life when split.
It's a linear path towards an inevitable end unless you loop right back at the beginning, something that you can do already on Dark Souls 1 by linking the fire. There's nothing inevitable if you have the oportunity to avoid it, and that's linking the fire. You can always evade the age of dark by linking the fire. The age of dark is not inevitable, but the natural flow of the world, a flow that you disrupt by linking the fire.
Orochinagis
Member
No, he is not the source (yet) of the dark soul. He is just the father of the abyss not Pygmy (yet). The humanities living on the chasm is just a indirect doing of Manus, he maybe didnt noticed he did that
Yes, thats the thing some people cant figure out. the ones who preserved the fire were usually kings or lords fearing the the curse will obliterate and destroy everything they rule.
The lords managed as Gwyn did in his time, to lure undead to sacrifice or sacrifice themselves on the fire to keep their kingdoms alive but it looks like it didnt go so well.
Already Torn
Banned
That's not a cycle though, and that means that the Dark Lord ending in DkS1 isn't canon.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
You're basically a murderous arsonist in every game.
Orochinagis
Member
There was never a cycle on first place just kingdoms rising and falling, mostly by human conflicts rather than being overrun by the curse if you read the descriptions carefuly. relinking the fire can be considered a "cycle" but is totally independent of the human civilization.
Dark Lord maybe be non canon since the fire is still alive and was relinked 5 times according to the saint ashes in dark souls 2, there maybe more
Already Torn
Banned
But don't they refer to it as a cycle explicitly in DkS2? Or is that one of those things that I just imagined into the game? From what I remember it's heavily implied that regardless of if you kindled that flame or not in each game, it just starts up again anyway.
Can't it be that even if you decide to leave the kiln, someone else
(solaire?)
And yes I specifically remember seeing or hearing the word cycle.
Orochinagis
Member
Is a new cycle when the fire is relinked, people can die and the curse diminishes, leaving space to create more kingdoms and conflicts till the fire starts to die finishing the "cycle" people cant die (becomes undead) and curse starts to arise the darkness.
In the trailer looks like the darkness messed up the enviroment pretty hard this time, so hard someone had to revive the lords of cinder.
Basically. That's what the "prophecy of the chosen undead" is really about. It's a lie forged to find someone, anyone remotely powerful enough to link it. Even if you're character didn't link it, others undoubtedly have through the ages.
Already Torn
Banned
But what if Solaire dies? That also means you never get to be the Dark Lord, it's a cop-out. It does make the ending of DkS1 that you linked the flame, which is kind of lame.
The fire can't be relinked if it goes out though.
InternHertz
Member
Come join me!
I bought bloodborne on the US SEN Store just to play it 3 days before the European release which I had reserved.
So even if I reserved the Collector's Edition on PS4 and will buy a regular version on PC too, if it means I can play almost 3 weeks before, I will gladly preorder it on the JPN SEN Store.
I'll buy Star Ocean 5 on disc then because even if I also want to play it, I'd be too busy spending my free time on DS3 <3
If you're telling me that the game never tells you "hey, Manus was the Pygmy" then yeah, but that's the way of Dark Souls lore.
IMO, he is the Pygmy, there's a lot of points to it for me, but that's probably a long discussion to be had and we probably will never reach an agreement.
Not saying you're wrong but I don't remember any mention of this. Maybe I forgot though.
So if Solaire shows up as a lord of cinder, does that confirm he linked the flame? (I know it won't happen so they don't mess with what's actually canon, but just to help me understand this better)
i need my Uchigatana
finalflame
Member
I am second guessing my JP pre-order, because I can't read Japanese :/ As well as I know the UI elements and such, it will be hard and diminish the experience to get through the game without reading item descriptions, etc.
Already Torn
Banned
And if he does, it's still just saying that very specific runs of DkS are canon, since Solaire dies for most people.
Man... It made sense in Bloodborne, but they really should stop with this crap :C
Yeah, I agree. The "light and dark are cyclical" thing is absolutely a retcon from Dark Souls II. But I think it paid off in the end, the concept of multiple Lords of Cinder being resurrected and us hunting them down is the coolest shit in the world.
SAVED.
Basically, the ages are eras in the timeline, what happens by linking the fire is:
Ancients -> Fire -> Fire -> Fire -> Fire -> Eventually Dark, rather than Ancients -> Fire -> Dark -> Fire -> Dark -> Fire(...)
But the game does make it clear that the age of men is the inevitable course of nature, and Gwyndolin and Frampt are merely delaying the inevitable. And the various states you can leave the world after you beat the game support this notion. For example, you can link the fire, but before that kill Gwyndolin and destroy the illusion in Anor Londo, ruining his plans of guiding another undead to link the fire again in the future. Without Gwyndolin, who will give the lordvessel to the next undead? And who will guide Frampt? He does serve royalty, no matter who it is, like you can see by having Frampt serve you when you become a Dark Lord, despite working to turn you into a Lord of Cinder.
I really disliked the lore in Dark Souls II, it was mostly irrelevant and, frankly, kind of boring. There were some neat side stories, though. I never really thought having too much fanservice was a big issue, the problem is having nothing but that.
I actually love Dark Souls II, I agree with most of the criticism people give to it, but I still think it's a great game. The lore, though? Fuck that shit.
Again, it did serve for one of the coolest concepts in the series, hunting down the Lords of Cinder as a concept already makes all of the cyclical bullshit worth it.
Not to mention the fact that they even patched
a choice to walk away from the throne of want
They do seem to be retconning this retcon, though, with the whole thing of the Lords of Cinder standing to protect the flame when it's about to fade, or whatever. Gives them something to explain why it managed to never go out. We'll see.
To me, the only really good argument for Manus being the Pygmy is the poetry of it all. You fight the owners of the lord souls in the main game, and the owner of the dark soul in the DLC. Other than that, I find every other point reeeeaaally weak. It's good enough for head-canon, but it's not lore. At least not yet.
Orochinagis
Member
There are more lordvessels behind the lordvessel chamber.....so regardless if you dont relink the flame, other will do it.
Finish the cycle will end in two ways: Let the fire die and starts the age of dark which is unknown if humanity can survive that or find a way to trascent humanity and survive the darkness yet the world will fall in darkness.
Or just keep the endless cycle of relinking the fire.
Agree, yet I like discussing lore anyway. thanks for the conversation.
FROM did it in Dark Souls 2 "hey, Nassandra is Manus fragment" from Vendrick, a guy who doesnt know was his wife origin was pretty bullshit moment for me
What we've seen of Dark Souls 3 doesn't break that so far though, given the whole premise seems to be that the flame is finally at the point where preserving it is (at least by the means of the earlier games) impossible.
At this point I'm fully expecting one of the big twists to be that one of the endgame bosses or major characters is a previous Soul's protagonist (even if they're not really human anymore); even if the Dark Lord/Walk Away endings are canon so they're not Lords of Cinder (and in Dark Souls 2 at least I'm pretty sure it's intended to be) if this is the end of the series it seems they would have to acknowledge their actions somehow.
Bloodborne structure. Disconnected HUB but interconnected world.
Slick Butter
Member
So is Uldritch, The First of the Sludge, gonna be the new Nito/Rotten? Pile of bones to pile of corpses to pile of... dark slime?
I hope that one of the endings to the game involves the character plunging a bonfire stoker into his chest.
I hope that one of the endings to the game involves the character plunging a bonfire stoker into his chest.
Nice, that'll do me. Skipped DS2 so probably back in for this one.
EVIL GOO
InternHertz
Member
It's Phalanx that got a bit too warm and started to melt. It even has the front shield <3
Finally, the connection with Demon's Souls is made, just as we wanted (?)
The only connection with Demon's I want is through a remaster.
DoubleTake
Member
Couldn't agree more that the lore in two is simply a retcon.
I honestly believe if it didn't exist miyazaki wouldn't have to include things like thrones/crowns to tie in. Although I'm glad it does exist so once we see how the games' "cycle" was originally intended to be handled.
I find it really interesting that the Lords have abandoned their thrones though. Do they remember the pain of being cast into the fire, or do some of them regret their decision to prolong the age of fire?
Needing 5 powerful beings to light the flame shows just how much it "wants" to die out.
The games repeatedly state that time and space are all sorts of fucked in the Souls universe, which is why you're fighting enemies you already killed, you're travelling into memories, you're slaying Manus or the Giant Lord or Artorias yourself. That doesn't mean in every timeline, that your character was the one to do these things.
This basically explains why a (the?) Giant Lord would be a Lord of Cinder, because there may exist a timeline where he invaded Drangleic and destroyed Nashandra and Vendrick and discovered the kiln himself.
The key is that if a single undead/protagonist can be fortunate enough to exist in a timeline where it's possible to end the curse once and for all, then that could most likely be the plot of DS3. Or maybe the lesson will be that nothing ever ends, and you're the least fortunate for existing at a time where all of the previous Lords of Cinder just woke up and they're angry.
InternHertz
Member
You and me both! I don't even get why this isn't a thing yet. Worse games already got remastered, but not this masterpiece...
Our connection to Demon's was always Patches. He is the one constant. He must be the source of all things fire and dark.
It has been bugging me as well. Just the image of the lords abandoning their thrones is by itself quite powerful. Can we jump to April already?
The struggle will be too real when people start talking about how much they're loving it (or not, who knows...) from imported copies >_<
Slick Butter
Member
It's not that light and dark is cyclical. The natural course is the age of dark , yeah, but Dark 1 introduced the loop, that is linking the fire to restart the age of fire. Dark Souls 2 did nothing more that state that more people keep linking the fire, they didn't invent the loop.
Now, I know you don't like this outcome, cause it takes out the possibility of the age of dark starting from the dark lord ending, and I understand it. But I think they had not much choice there, it was either push one ending or another, and I think it's fair to assume a lot of chosen undeads would link the fire, considering how fucked up the worlds gets without the fire. I don't think Gwyndolin or Frampt are crucial to it. Yeah they add the Chosen Undead in Dark 1, but that doesn't mean anyone else could do on the next ages if they're interested.
Hell, Dark 3 still happens in the age of fire, just at the very end of it, and it's probably the last Dark Souls game so they're free to do whatever ending they want.
About Manus, as I said I see the points strong enough, but that's just me of course.
Yeah not gonna deny Vendrick knew too much there. Manus events should have been more obscure.
DoubleTake
Member
THANK YOU. Good to know someone else is seeing what im seeing. Kudos to not being blind.
Of course this is CG. For all we know he'll end up having a butthole face in the actual game...
But that's the thing, they absolutely didn't! If Dark is inevitable, have the sequel take place during the Age of Dark, and both endings could work. It's not that they had to choose one, they just didn't get Dark Souls, which is kind of insane.
They didn't even give you a choice in Dark Souls II's ending, just showing how it didn't matter to them. Only with the Scholar patch that they retconned it into the game (likely because Dark III was already in production at that point, and they needed to make it work), but still in a weird manner. You choose to find another solution to the curse, it says nothing about the Age of Dark, because it's irrelevant to them.
Dark Souls III comes, and undead are still a thing, the focus is all on the end of fire and the lords of cinder again, it really shows how they're completely different takes on that world.
It's not even a case of "fucking B Team can't write as well as my husbando Miyazaki", it's not acceptable that they let the games contradict each other like this, they said Miyazaki was consulting in Dark Souls II, but it kinda sounds like he did fucking nothing while they were writing the story for the sequel.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
Dark Souls 2 lore was a real fucking mess lmao.