SmoothRunningGun
Member
I think people will be pissed that they can't play a mode in a game they paid for. Everyone doesn't follow every detail of a game on gaf. To me this is sony level arrogance on their part and is really turning me off the game.
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Destiny's raids will not support online matchmaking with random players.
- Thread starter sjay1994
- Start date
I think people will be pissed that they can't play a mode in a game they paid for. Everyone doesn't follow every detail of a game on gaf. To me this is sony level arrogance on their part and is really turning me off the game.
Bungie is also the same dev being quoted in a Reach Vidoc as saying that getting Onyx ranking in Halo Reach was tantamount to being Roger Clemens in the MLB.
Yea well so much for that seeing as I got there many time, and a majority of the time with randoms because I didn't have enough people for a full party.
All that coming off the travesty that was the Halo 3 1-50 ranking system its safe to say Bungie has not created a proper online challenge since 2004. So we have no reason to believe this will be any different in terms of over exaggerated difficulty.
Well, how's your change-up? Maybe you have a future in the MLB.
Trickster
Member
What would be the point of providing matchmaking for something that's clearly not intended for random people to just try out on a whim? Even if you placed a big fat warning saying "THIS IS NOT INTENDED FOR YOU". People would still try it out, have a miserable time and then go onto bungie's forum and whine about the difficulty, saying it's broken and needs nerfing etc.
MADGAME
Member
Which they can still do anyway, just with an added layer of frustration of scrounging for a party in the tower, online, etc first. This argument is irrelevant.
I don't really feel like tearing my Rotator Cuff.
On a serious note though, don't ever let anyone tell you you cant do something because it's too hard.
Jest Chillin
Member
I don't think that the game will be content light. If I remember the interview correctly, the Endgame stuff starts at Level 20 but it's designed to be done after the PvE Story Missions have been completed. The author of the IGN article threw out the length of 20 hours in a passing comment (Your first 20 hours in Destiny will be nothing like the next or something like that) but it's unclear if that's just an arbitrary number or something he got from Luke or someone else at Bungie directly. I'm pretty confident though that the story missions will be at least the length of a normal FPS Campaign and then after that starts the MMORPG style Dailies, Weeklies, and eventually Raiding if one were so inclined.
However if you are concerned about the amount of content then waiting until after launch is perfectly reasonable. I'd do the same if I felt that way.
They more than likely chose a top Halo Clan that has performed better than average as judged by their internal metrics. Not a Top 10 in the world WoW Guild or anything like that.
Static Jak
Member
Yeah, their ranking system in Reach was all over the place.
They really, really tried to hype it up as this massive improvement over 1-50 rank scale from Halo 3 along with being a massive challenge but it really fell short of being either of those things.
The Halo community really didn't like the Reach ranking system and it just didn't hold up well.
There was a few weird decisions in Reach now that I think about it. Invasion was another thing. This whole new gametype that required more strategy with different phases and all that. It died out quick. Really quick.
The logic of only doing this with a group of friends and not a pug doesn't make sense. DestinyGAF is one big pug, it just so happens that we are all from the same community. How is that any different from matchmaking? The only difference is that i would have to make a post and advertise on the DestinyGAF's Bungie community page instead of pressing a button in game to match me up with other players. Anything that takes me out of the game is bad game design imo.
Static Jak
Member
It's basically just manual matchmaking.
Or MMM for short?
I'm just looking at this from using DestinyGAF as a tool to make a pug group, which is no different with using a auto matchmaking tool in game. If this content is 100% focused on being balanced for structured community groups and friends, then i probably have no chance of playing it.
TheCanisDirus
Member
Yeah no proximity chat is pretty shitty. Is Bungie going all "Nintendo" in that they're trying to eliminate the vulgarity and trash talk by blocking proximity/free chat?
Twilight Gap
Member
Invasion had a consistent peak population of 3000 players for a long time and still has a stready retention. The issue was that it was poorly supported and lacked dedicated maps (only 3 were made) until they added lousy community ones into it.
But yea they have always made weird, often contradictory decisions. A "social game without social features" as someone said is a step up on that list
Static Jak
Member
3,000 aint great for a Halo game though. It dropped and kept at that level for a while but I wouldn't call 3,000 that good. Though I remember seeing it hit the hundreds a few times.
Ramocalypse
Member
My main concern for Raids, why support something with so few players?
Twilight Gap
Member
I'd still list poor support as its issue over the nature of the gametype. It did have its faults, and the short-sightedness of the gametype prevented them from being addressed.
If we're referring to the population of Destiny's Raids, it's far too early to speculate how many people it may support. Exclusivity seems to be part of the thing they're going for though...
Static Jak
Member
I can see where he's coming from though. Naturally, Raids are going to have a much smaller population due to no MM, end game content and the need for setting up outside of the game due to no clan support in-game.
All of that could lead to a faster decline in population after the initial rush of players early on.
From Activision and Bungies viewpoint, support for that game type later in the games lifespan might not gain as much support as new story, Crucible Maps and Strike Maps that everyone can play. Which, in turn, leads to even less people playing Raid.
But that's just speculation on my part.
Fair enough.
No idea, but i wouldnt be suprised if we would see it just some months after release. I believe the last gen versions will force them to do it. For example i cant imagine there will be enough players on Xbox 360 EU server for raiding without matchmaking some months after release.
The whole "no matchmaking" thing makes the last gen versions even more pointless.
MWS Natural
Member
Well I hope this dies out quick, wouldn't want any noobs having the elite raid gear that I will have!
TheOhrenberger.
Banned
I don't see how this is a good thing. It's always nice to have an option.
Really now? With no cross-gen play it's even harder to get -real- friends over to a new platform, in my case the PS4.
I convinced a good friend to buy one, just so that he could play destiny. And we are all happy about our soon to be co-op experience. But with no matchmaking system it's impossible for us to go on a raid, at least in the way Bungie wants (ex: everyone lives in the suburbs and is rich enough to buy a new system year 1 to play with their 5 other friends who live in the same timezone and can play whenever you feel like it).
I'd much rather get a matchmaking system than looking for people in forums and coordinate a party beforehand, and do this repeatedly because not everyone will get into the perfect group of 6 people that will stick together for a long time and play a raid when you are free. It's so much trouble it's almost not worth it.
The logic behind this baffles me. In bungie's minds it's IMPOSSIBLE to win a high rank game of League of Legends with a random group because of all the coordination and deep game knowledge required. If I had to talk in forums, invite and wait for 4 other people in Lol/Dota2 to play a game I'd never do it. If pugs work with MOBAs and MMOs it will work with Destiny.
Also guilds work in WoW because it's a very social game. You look at guildchat all day long (and talk to them in TS/Ventrilo/mumble/skype), you complete your daily quests in the morning, help your guildies with Heroic dungeons in the afternoon, and then hop on a raid at night. I don't believe Destiny is this type of game. Sure in the first few weeks I'll be glued to it 24/7, but after a while I will only play it here and there. Having this high level of entry for a Raid contradicts that mentality. Does bungie think we'll put as much hours in destiny as we do in a MMO like WoW for months on end?
TL;DR: How come the level of entry for a complex game like LoL (100+ characters, 400+ abilities, however many items to memorize, counters, map knowledge, controlling objectives, split second decisions, etc etc) is lower than a Raid in Destiny (6 subclasses, 9(?) types of weapons, few races of enemies). Why would matchmaking work in top ranks of Lol/Dota and heroics in WoW but not in Destiny?
I convinced a good friend to buy one, just so that he could play destiny. And we are all happy about our soon to be co-op experience. But with no matchmaking system it's impossible for us to go on a raid, at least in the way Bungie wants (ex: everyone lives in the suburbs and is rich enough to buy a new system year 1 to play with their 5 other friends who live in the same timezone and can play whenever you feel like it).
I'd much rather get a matchmaking system than looking for people in forums and coordinate a party beforehand, and do this repeatedly because not everyone will get into the perfect group of 6 people that will stick together for a long time and play a raid when you are free. It's so much trouble it's almost not worth it.
The logic behind this baffles me. In bungie's minds it's IMPOSSIBLE to win a high rank game of League of Legends with a random group because of all the coordination and deep game knowledge required. If I had to talk in forums, invite and wait for 4 other people in Lol/Dota2 to play a game I'd never do it. If pugs work with MOBAs and MMOs it will work with Destiny.
Also guilds work in WoW because it's a very social game. You look at guildchat all day long (and talk to them in TS/Ventrilo/mumble/skype), you complete your daily quests in the morning, help your guildies with Heroic dungeons in the afternoon, and then hop on a raid at night. I don't believe Destiny is this type of game. Sure in the first few weeks I'll be glued to it 24/7, but after a while I will only play it here and there. Having this high level of entry for a Raid contradicts that mentality. Does bungie think we'll put as much hours in destiny as we do in a MMO like WoW for months on end?
TL;DR: How come the level of entry for a complex game like LoL (100+ characters, 400+ abilities, however many items to memorize, counters, map knowledge, controlling objectives, split second decisions, etc etc) is lower than a Raid in Destiny (6 subclasses, 9(?) types of weapons, few races of enemies). Why would matchmaking work in top ranks of Lol/Dota and heroics in WoW but not in Destiny?
Soren_lost
Member
Yes and no. Yes, initially we are a big pug, but we have to add each other as friends first, then overtime by playing together we become a clan. I would love an in-game clan matchmaking system, but LFR is the death of end-game content. Even wow doesn't allow it for the highest difficulty. I could see once newer raids come out and the average guardians gear outperforms old raids a matchmaking system being implemented.
Even then, its in Bungie's best interest for you to make new friends and join a clan. Your playtime will go up, and the likelihood of purchasing dlc in the future goes up as well if you feel like you a have a persistent community to return to. Disabling LFR is one avenue to do this, there are others, all of which Bungie is exploring.
I realize as a defender of disabling matchmaking I may come across as smug or elitist, but I truly believe its in the best health of the game. When i see reactions like "Well I guess i'll never see the content then", IMO is just the completely wrong attitude to have in this situation. Engage the community, make new friends, use what resources we have, and I'm sure Bungie will deliver a better clan recruitment tool in the future.
HiredN00bs
Member
Do you really think such an extended complex play session is suitable for matchmaking? That's the point that I'm making here.
ODST Firefight was a completely open-ended experience. It could last for hours, until people quit or the group finally ran out of lives. Even if ODST had matchmaking, the experience would have been extremely poor without some serious gameplay modifications. Enter Reach FF, which most people agree was not as much fun.
So yes, they could make an experience that was suitable for matchmaking, and indeed they have with the strike, story, crucible, and explore modes. This is something special and unique. It is a purposeful design intended for special types of groups. I can't wait to try it.
Onyx was top 5% of Arena participants. You could rank up to top 1% Onyx, which is the top .05% of Arena participants.
You're comparing ranking constructs in PvP multiplayer to an epic six-player co-op PvE dungeon?
I dunno. I think I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and try it first before I go pissing down Bungies back. My impression is that the first attempts at the raid are hard enough. I'm probably going to have notations on my own friendlist as to who I'm not willing be aggravated by, so they might be doing us all a massive favor with this minor gate.
Pretty much all of that.
Pretty much all of that.
Trickster
Member
You're trying to compare PvP matchmaking to PvE, that's like comparing apples to oranges.
The closest comparrison I can give you is this. Imagine if, instead of get paired up with people of a similar skill level to you, in order to fight agains't a different team that's also roughly at your teams skill level. Instead of that, you get placed on a team of people with completely random skill levels. And instead of fighting another team that is like the one you're on, you only get placed up agains't teams with coordinated teams of top 1% players . How do you think that would work out for your team? And keep in mind scripted boss fight won't be prone to making mistakes like a player would, so while you might get lucky and run into a 1% team that has a bad game with a lot of player mistakes and get a win that way, that kinda fluke won't happen in a raid.
And heroic dungeons in WoW are incredibly easy. If you think raids are anything like that, then you've never done a raid.
Let me ask you, why do you think the raid matchmaking in WoW isn't for the normal difficulty level of a raid, but the LFR mode where bosses basically do no dmg compared to normal, have waaaay less health, and quite often have had abilities crucial to the fights on normal and heroic, completely removed or gimped so much that you can litterally ignore them?
Ivory Samoan
Gold Member
There is random matchmaking, just not in Raids.
The more I think about it, the more I believe there should be some form of matchmaking for Raids...perhaps set up pre-requisites though for it to be available (headset mandatory, right level, motes gear right for level etc).
I don't have console friends.
Post your gamer tag and make some
Look, you can stop this. The idea about how they can't play a mode they paid for is nothing but nonsense. They absolutely can play it, provided they meet the challenge appropriately.
Twilight Gap
Member
Not to signal you out, but this is what bothers me the most about this discussion. You're not being locked out of the content you paid for. The lack of matchmaking simply requires that players form groups manually in-game or out of it. By all means, debate the pros and cons of this system, but lets not sensationalize the issue. You absolutely can play the content, only doing so is not as convenient as the rest of the game is.
Perhaps I'm arguing semantics here, but I think it'd be best for the discussion to steer clear of what would inevitably lead to another "Destiny has no content" thread.
Ramocalypse
Member
Scouring message boards for people to raid with is not a challenge it's an annoyance. It's also a segmented, smaller pool to try your luck with than having some type of in game queue system.
Jackbooted
Member
What challenge are you referring to? Posting on a message board to form up a raid team?
Eh, I wouldn't go that far. People absolutely can play it, they aren't being locked out of it, just can't do it through a matchmaking system.
That being said, I will continue to be dumbfounded by the lack of matchmaking as well as the cheering from some about its absence. Weird stuff.
LollipoPReapeR
Member
I'd much rather play with a gaffer than a complete random tbh. Even though you could argue most of GAF are pretty much randoms, I know that I won't really (or at the least far less likely) be set up with any assholes....
Also, I'm sure than once DGAF is properly set up for the full game, we can have a system set up in each respective regional clan. Something like a set time for a raid every week. People could then sign up then split into teams, etc
Ramocalypse
Member
I feel ya, but you could still search on Gaf regardless for raid members.
Whynotboth.jpg
I absolutely despise everything about Dota and LoL's communities so by referencing those games you have effectively upheld my belief that Bungie is doing the right thing.
It's just a very foreign concept to an FPS co-op shooter, content of such difficulty that an extra step to form a group is a necessary one to get across the oomph of Bungie's intent and purpose of the raid. This is something where the mindset and structure of the MMO-ness of Destiny is crashing with the expectation of a mainly FPS crowd and their conceptions of a co-op game design.
I for one am very curious if it will pay off. It'll be seen as a huge annoyance to some, a challenge and experience some have never had in an FPS for others.
Lol to think this was just a big generic shooter only a few months ago.
Pop
Member
That's a great video describing endgame content. Liking how it's more then just about stats and how the raids will play a role in what weapons you need to use.
The simplest solution - and life is better when viewed through the principles of simplicity - is to have a disclaimer stating that matchmaking will not be the best way to play. A premade is group is recommended. Once agreed to, people can enter MM informed and other people can play with premade groups. It's win-win. I feel that by not including MM for raids due to inherent difficulty is borderline pretentious on Bungie's behalf.
Regret Upon Approval
Member
Pretty much.
It wouldn't have been as big an issue if it was easy to socialize and scrounge up a party in game.
Joining a group on Bungie.net. You'll have to do it anyway if you want to clan up.
Well I've stopped playing WoW before LFR was introduced, but Destiny doesn't require the same finesse, as mechanics are pretty simple, they have to, since there are no specific class roles or important skills like interrupts or agro management mechanics (at least not to the same complexity). I think It'll be mostly Dont-stand-in-the-fire type of mechanics, and coordinated jumps and whatnot, nothing groundbreaking.
Also, Matchmaking could look at your stats, like Armor level and total int/str/dis to distinguish fresh lvl20's from veterans and group them accordingly, no need for an awkward "test phase" by making the first 10 raids random picks like it happens to determine Elo in Lol/Dota and other games. The stats are right there from the get-go.
When we needed to fill our raid group in WoW we'd look for other player's item level. If they have a high level it means they already did something to warrant getting their loot, meaning they are good at raiding or at least competent enough.
Raid matchmaking in Destiny wouldn't be random at all. It doesn't need to be at least.
that.... made sence.
This sums up precisely how I feel. ODST Firefight was some of the best console MP ever IMO. I am actually looking forward to finding a group to work through these raids with.
Twilight Gap
Member
This with a combination of search preferences and enhanced social communication would be great. Bungie's still got a small buffer zone to patch some of this stuff in, so I hope they can address it. If the game launches with clunky communication tools and inconvenient endgame content, it'll have a hard time getting off the ground.
That can be what you think but... it's completely opposite of what Bungie's design goals are for the content. Saying that would be telling Bungie straight up that you think their designers are going to fail.