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[peetfeet]

I think some sort of in game paging system would work here. For example, if you're getting a 6 man fireteam together and not sure who else you can ask to play give us the ability to send out an onscreen message to friends that are currently playing the game. Something like 'player is going on a raid, will you join us', yes, no, give me a few minutes as the standard replies. Would maybe make things easier.

Also set up some sort of ingame schedule so you can plan out when your team will return to the raid, again onscreen message to say raid will start in x mins please team up when possible. Similar to clan matches in killzone 2 I guess.

 

[frequency]

*snip*

3 hours to complete a raid or failing for 16 hours or taking 45 minutes on trash mobs before the boss is nothing. Those are very small numbers when we're talking about raids (in other games). Yet, people still do it in pick up groups just fine. It just spans over multiple days.

I know Bungie was bragging about those numbers to say, "Look how hardcore it is!" but those aren't very impressive. Nor do they show how hardcore a commitment Destiny's raiding requires in comparison to other games with raids.

Maybe it's unusual for FPS gamers to group up that long but it's not like you have to sit there for 3+ hours straight. Your progress is saved for the week so you can come back another day. You could do 1 boss/wing a day and then meet up again tomorrow. Or just let people queue per wing rather than per entire raid.

 

[Static Jak]

My only real concern here is the apparent lack of social features. Chat, proximity voice chat, etc... the world feels like a very lonely place, not at all social.

I just hope there's some kind of system in game to flag yourself as looking for an active raid group, or a board to advertise that you're looking for players to join.

I could live without MM for raids, but not if what we've seen is the only way to add people.

I think the biggest issue that nearly all other issues in this game revolve around is the lack of social features in pretty much all gametypes. The idea that Crucible, a fairly classic MP deathmatch mode, doesn't have voice chat is insane.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Luke said in his post that you quoted previously, that he fully expects players to be able to beat a raid in well under 3 hours. I dont think its that "fucking long" as you put it. Also, Im not sure why you think opening the mode up to pugs would require some fundamental change to the game, kind of a jump to conclusion there.

You seem awfully predisposed to dismiss any arguments for match-making "hacks" here, that torch you're carrying must be getting awfully heavy at this point (I love bungie too, but even large multi-million dollar development studios can make mistakes some times)
Again, its plainly obvious why they didn't include as they have spelled it out for us.

I'm not carrying any torch; to the contrary, it seems some want to burn Bungie at the stake without a good understanding of the experience they're offering here.

And I'm not sure where you're coming from, but 3 hours is a long session for a Bungie shooter, and that's at a point where everything clicks. I think the longest single session activity previously was an Endure run (achievement in ODST, survive 10 sets on Heroic difficulty with 3 other XBL players) and we could do that under 2, and there was no matchmaking. Most matchmaking experiences in Halo 2, Halo 3, and Halo: Reach were capped at 12 minutes, with Reach campaign missions being the only exceptions.

And I could go back and point out all people who claim that it's better to offer a shit matchmaking option than no matchmaking option, but I think you know where I'm coming from here (we don't disagree about doing what's best for the game).

Just as an aside, I think if players have the option to have a public fireteam, they should also have the option for global chat. It could be that this was a network optimization decision, but it's trivial when everyone and their mothers is watching Netflix.

 

[Dhruv_hanom]

My only real concern here is the apparent lack of social features. Chat, proximity voice chat, etc... the world feels like a very lonely place, not at all social.

I just hope there's some kind of system in game to flag yourself as looking for an active raid group, or a board to advertise that you're looking for players to join.

I could live without MM for raids, but not if what we've seen is the only way to add people.

I agree this game needs Proximity Voice chat or some form of interaction that is not dancing.

Also flagging yourself for a raid or a strike is a great idea.

 

[Static Jak]

And I'm not sure where you're coming from, but 3 hours is a long session for a Bungie shooter, and that's at a point where everything clicks.

Well, there is checkpoints throughout that 3 hour playthrough. So you can have multiple stop points and pick it up any time later that week.

 

[amar212]

Proximity Chat for the Tower and Exploration would solve EVERYTHING.

Also, the simple Raid Lounge area in the Tower would also be a nifty solution.

 

[Static Jak]

Proximity Chat for the Tower and Exploration would solve EVERYTHING.

Proximity Chat for the Tower and Exploration, normal Chat for Crucible and being able to flag yourself as looking for Raid partners.

Add in mute options and so on and we're golden.

 

[Ramocalypse]

I agree this game needs Proximity Voice chat or some form of interaction that is not dancing.

Also flagging yourself for a raid or a strike is a great idea.

Isn't flagging yourself for a raid or strike essentially the same as mm, only not as efficient? I suppose it makes it a more involved process so that the player is demonstrating a specific level of dedication, but it could be even more streamlined than that.

 

[Ramocalypse]

Proximity Chat for the Tower and Exploration would solve EVERYTHING.

Also, the simple Raid Lounge area in the Tower would also be a nifty solution.

A raid lounge is a neat idea, but because of the limit of people in the tower with you, the pool of players you are looking at to find people to raid with is relatively small, chances of finding those last 2 players for your group are much better with a global queueing system.

 

[Static Jak]

Isn't flagging yourself for a raid or strike essentially the same as mm, only not as efficient? I suppose it makes it a more involved process so that the player is demonstrating a specific level of dedication, but it could be even more streamlined than that.

It'd be handy to be able to look at a list of players wanting to do Raids where you can see what stats they have.

Say you have 4 friends together but need another 2 players to even get into a Raid. So you pop up the menu showing players wanting to join one. You can pick and choose who would match up best with you current party.

 

[Ramocalypse]

It'd be handy to be able to look at a list of players wanting to do Raids where you can see what stats they have.

Say you have 4 friends together but need another 2 players to even get into a Raid. So you pop up the menu showing players wanting to join one. You can pick and choose who would match up best with you current party.

i see what your saying, a global list, then you can look at gear and stats through the list and perhaps send and invite. Yeah I like this idea a lot

 

[HiredN00bs]

Well, there is checkpoints throughout that 3 hour playthrough. So you can have multiple stop points and pick it up any time later that week.

But does the current design allow for swapping players? If so, why not? Like I said, we do not have enough context to offer useful criticism of this decision.

If you're going to stream it this Fall, please feel free to let me know here. I'd love to tune in.

I know I will be taking this on as quickly as possible, whether with friends, clanmates, fellow forum-goers, or a mixture of the above. I prefer to go in with a group of which each member is facing it for the first time, and without any outside assistance. So yeah, it will likely be a long stream:

http://www.twitch.tv/HiredN00bs

 

[Static Jak]

i see what your saying, a global list, then you can look at gear and stats through the list and perhaps send and invite. Yeah I like this idea a lot

It could tie into clan support too. People could flag themselves as wanting to join a clan. Clan members could look at players stats in the same way as above and send an invite if they wanted. And the player can look at the players in the clan and see if he likes the looks of it.

In game social features rather than having to log out of the game to go the long way round for anyone to play with.

 

[Twilight Gap]

3 hours to complete a raid or failing for 16 hours or taking 45 minutes on trash mobs before the boss is nothing. Those are very small numbers when we're talking about raids (in other games). Yet, people still do it in pick up groups just fine. It just spans over multiple days.

I know Bungie was bragging about those numbers to say, "Look how hardcore it is!" but those aren't very impressive. Nor do they show how hardcore a commitment Destiny's raiding requires in comparison to other games with raids.

Maybe it's unusual for FPS gamers to group up that long but it's not like you have to sit there for 3+ hours straight. Your progress is saved for the week so you can come back another day. You could do 1 boss/wing a day and then meet up again tomorrow. Or just let people queue per wing rather than per entire raid.

I don't disagree with any of this. I've mentioned that their decisions at this point do seem contradictory, but without knowing the full picture, we can only speculate so far. They may have already had such a system in place when they decided to leave it out, or they may be developing it to release at a later date. I have as much reason to believe there will be a point when Raids have matchmaking - whether it's a week, a month or 6 months after they release - as I do to suspect that they wont. Again, we know fuck all about Destiny's Raids other than those handful of posts and 5 seconds of "gameplay".

I'll be just as disappointed if they plan to leave it out while the social aspect of the rest of the game remains unchanged. Thus, I'm hoping that the weeks ahead of release offer greater insight into their design behind the gamemode and paint a clearer picture about what players can expect after launch.

 

[burritosenior]

Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours.

Interesting. Tis a far cry from the claim of 16 hour failures, though. I feel like some expectations might have been a little high by people.

 

[Vhalyar]

Interesting. Tis a far cry from the claim of 16 hour failures, though. I feel like some expectations might have been a little high by people.

No? On one hand, you are trying to learn the raid's encounters and the individual boss gimmicks. You bash your head against the wall trying out different things until you kill the boss, then repeat at the next boss. That's where the guild took 16 hours and still failed.

On the other, once you know how everything in the raid functions, you are properly geared and you keep fuckups to a minimum you can streamline the raid to less than 3 hours.

That's basically how a raid functions in every MMORPG.

 

[burritosenior]

No?

Yes. Many of the posts I see on a daily basis on the subject are all about how impossible the raids will be and how they will always take so long to finish. Now with this post somebody linked on Bungie's own forums, folks are all complaining about this- due to them getting their expectations so high with the 16 hour deal.

On one hand, you are trying to learn the raid's encounters and the individual boss gimmicks. You bash your head against the wall trying out different things until you kill the boss, then repeat at the next boss. That's where the guild took 16 hours and still failed.

On the other, once you know how everything in the raid functions, you are properly geared and you keep fuckups to a minimum you can streamline the raid to less than 3 hours.

That's basically how a raid functions in every MMORPG.

I'm aware of the process. I've done raids before. Never claimed this isn't what I personally expected. I'm simply stating that people in the community have gotten their expectations much higher and placing a number of 'less than three hours' on it has gotten quite a few panties in a twist.

 

[Twilight Gap]

The little information we have about Destiny's Raids has been interpreted (and misinterpreted) in so many different ways, hence my hesitance to firmly stand on one side without more details. There are 5 weeks and a few more gaming conventions left between now and release, so hopefully we'll see our concerns addressed and doubts laid to rest by then.

 

[Brutalitops]

I'm too socially awkward to play with people who expect me to use mix

 

[Static Jak]

Now with this post somebody linked on Bungie's own forums, folks are all complaining about this- due to them getting their expectations so high with the 16 hour deal.

I don't know the specifics but I think that was because someone from Bungie posted about how a top Guild couldn't pass a Raid after 16 hours?
So we went from that to 3 hours and with breaks in-between too.

 

[InPlosion]

As someone who has seen first hand the destruction looking for x has brought to games like WoW, I'm 100% behind bungie's decision. Seriously, if you cannot understand the implications of having matchmaking in, as a design standpoint, refrain from arguing.

I know I'm being harsh, but it is the truth, matchmaking kills challenging design. Moreover, 90% of the game already supports matchmaking, what's wrong with having a tiny portion of it for the dedicated and the willing?

If you and your friends cannot schedule play time together consistently, you still have the rest of the game...

 

[Hoho for breakfast]

I'm too socially awkward to play with people who expect me to use mix

Well we can team up if you're on PSN. I don't like talking to people in general plus I have a wife and 3 kids at home, all of which will prevent me from using a mic much, if at all. I won't be using one unless it's absolutely mandatory to beat it and I'd be extremely surprised if it is.

 

[Ikuu]

As someone who has seen first hand the destruction looking for x has brought to games like WoW, I'm 100% behind bungie's decision. Seriously, if you cannot understand the implications of having matchmaking in, as a design standpoint, refrain from arguing.

I know I'm being harsh, but it is the truth, matchmaking kills challenging design. Moreover, 90% of the game already supports matchmaking, what's wrong with having a tiny portion of it for the dedicated and the willing?

If you and your friends cannot schedule play time together consistently, you still have the rest of the game...

What if I don't have any friends that play the game? I'm not allowed to attempt the content at all? How did LFR kill challenging design in raiding when people still struggled to complete Heroic modes?

 

[Cse]

What if I don't have any friends that play the game? I'm not allowed to attempt the content at all? How did LFR kill challenging design in raiding when people still struggled to complete Heroic modes?

I don't have any friends at all, and I completely agree with Bungie's decision regarding raids.

Sure, I wish the communication tools in game were improved. However, as someone who has also played WoW for a significant period of time, and have also seen the effect LFR and LFG have on raids and dungeons, I can say I'm quite excited about Bungie's approach.

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

I don't have any friends at all, and I completely agree with Bungie's decision regarding raids.

Sure, I wish the communication tools in game were improved. However, as someone who has also played WoW for a significant period of time, and have also seen the effect LFR and LFG have on raids and dungeons, I can say I'm quite excited about Bungie's approach.

Your excited about them limiting your options....

 

[harrypmgaga]

Your excited about them limiting your options....

Way to completely throw context out the window.

 

[InPlosion]

What if I don't have any friends that play the game? I'm not allowed to attempt the content at all? How did LFR kill challenging design in raiding when people still struggled to complete Heroic modes?

If you don't have any friends at all and you want to tackle that content, well get new friends then. There's no point in lowering the threshold (of a tiny portion of the game) for people who insist on playing multiplayer games in single player.
Everyone should've developed the ability to befriend people during their youth, it is a good time to use it!

For the wow comment, that game is 99% faceroll and 1% extremely hard. A smooth curve eh!? If I want to have any challenge or fun in that game, I have to first wade through hours and hours of pure distilled boredom, for the random casual player has no time to actually play a game, of a genre that has always stood as a synonym for Massive Time Sink. (Am I the only one to see such an oxymoron?)

LFR is basically wow single player, stripped of every mechanic, for people who don't yet know skyrim exists. Even blizzard is trying to sweep it under the rug in the next expansion.
Playing alone is just a good way to get burnt out fast in an MMO experience.

But well, I do understand that's hard to have any social interaction at all without a keyboard, even if textual communication is used only to engage in casual discussion, everything serious that requires coordination is handled through voice chat.

Having everything through voice chat can be problematic, the spam can get rowdy and not everybody's spoken english is up to par, expecially in EU.

 

[frequency]

As someone who has seen first hand the destruction looking for x has brought to games like WoW, I'm 100% behind bungie's decision. Seriously, if you cannot understand the implications of having matchmaking in, as a design standpoint, refrain from arguing.

I know I'm being harsh, but it is the truth, matchmaking kills challenging design. Moreover, 90% of the game already supports matchmaking, what's wrong with having a tiny portion of it for the dedicated and the willing?

If you and your friends cannot schedule play time together consistently, you still have the rest of the game...

But that's not entirely true. It's only true of LFR which is entirely optional. Heroic is still as challenging as ever and is better designed with more interesting mechanics than before LFR was introduced.

Throne of Thunder and Siege of Orgrimmar are the best raids Blizzard has ever done in terms of design and challenge.

If you choose to do LFR you can't complain about it. WoW is actually the perfect example that you can cater to both groups without compromising.

If your argument is what LFR/LFD did to the community then I'll agree with you. However, Destiny has no community tools anyway and already has what is essentially LFD. LFR didn't make it any worse than LFD did.

Even blizzard is trying to sweep it under the rug in the next expansion.

The reason LFR is no longer giving even tier-look-a-like in WOD is because really hardcore players felt the need to do LFR to fill in missing slots in addition to their normal raiding. It's not "trying to sweep it under the rug." LFR will still be there as the tourist mode it was always meant to be.

 

[lockload]

500 million bungiebucks and still can have matchmaking :-(

 

[v4skunk84]

No matchmaking sounds like a bad idea.
I'd also like to point out that pub players can be among the most skilled players in any game. Use this to your advantage and add them to your friends list.
In Borderlands2 on PC I have built up a big friend list of pubs and we are able to tackle any raid/boss, with no mics.

 

[Ramocalypse]

I keep seeing Destiny Raiding being compared almost 1 to 1 with WoW Raiding. There are 3 major differences

1. Only 6 players in the raid
2. Little to no role requirements (tank,healer,dps)
3. FPS gameplay and no keyboard needed

These three elements alone seem to make for a much more accessible experience opposed to Raiding in most MMO's which would lead me to believe that partial and even perhaps full pugs would have the ability/chance to complete these raids. Though we wont really know until the content is out obviously.

Also, I also find it odd that there seems to be a 'fear' that Bungie will weaken the content based on whiny people on the internet if they are exposed to it. There are already difficulty levels for the raid so players should know what they are getting into...

Lastly, Im not sure I even agree with the idea of creating content that is soooo difficult that they are creating barriers to prevent too many people from playing it. I can see both sides of the argument, but it really seems like a waste of resources, and frustrating for those less fortunate who want the full experience of the game. Bungie themselves have stated that Raiding is one of the pinnacles of Destiny, so why cater it to a tiny percentage of people?

 

[Kintaro]

Lastly, Im not sure I even agree with the idea of creating content that is soooo difficult that they are creating barriers to prevent too many people from playing it. I can see both sides of the argument, but it really seems like a waste of resources, and frustrating for those less fortunate who want the full experience of the game. Bungie themselves have stated that Raiding is one of the pinnacles of Destiny, so why cater it to a tiny percentage of people?

Because every MMO (or MMO-like) must have that 1%. =P That 1% is what drives the news around the MMO. "World Firsts" "New Raid Boss!" "New Raid Equipment!" and etc.

A raid, by its very existence, already caters to a smaller percentage of the community. More people. No match making. Longer mission. More co-ordination. Hard content. Each one of those is a barrier that closes off more of the community.

 

[Uthred]

That barrier to entry - the requirement that you get a group of people together and venture into something that is going to challenge your ability to work together (first) and your thumbs (second) - is a barrier I was willing to erect to preserve the activity goals.

Bleeding edge hardcore groups will invest some significant amount of time in figuring out the encounters and making their way through the Vault.

I fully expect groups to beat Normal mode in the first week its available.

• This is intentional, I'd like any group that is motivated and willing to cooperate to make their way through the Raid on Normal. I've talked some about thumbskill challenge vs. investment challenge vs. cooperation challenge in some interviews, and the Normal Raid difficulty prioritizes cooperation challenge and investment challenge.

I expect Hard mode to take longer.
Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours.

However, the first time through, learning everything and arranging your group will take some hard-to-predict amount of time until some clan releases their strategies on YouTube.

The Vault of Glass is in many ways an activity that will build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise.

If you're going to stream it this Fall, please feel free to let me know here. I'd love to tune in.

This justification, sorry, "defence" of not having matchmaking doesnt really seem to hold together. So the barrier to entry is there to preserve the activty goals, which are apparently a challenge to your ability to co-operate and secondly to use your fingers. So how exactly would matchmaking prevent either of those? Pretty sure I've been able to both communicate with strangers and retain the usage of my fingers using matchmaking before.

The normal raid is expected to be cleared within the first week so clearly matchmaking isnt there to keep out "filthy casuals", and again matchmaking doesnt preclude the two things apparently needed to clear it, i.e. motivation and co-operation.

Hard mode should take longer but once we know the raid we shouuld be able to get through it in under three hours, suggesting that three hours is roughly the normal amount of time it should take and that top guild must be pretty fucking shite if it took them sixteen hours (obviously progression will take a bit longer but sixteen hours still seems like bullshit)

And finally, and most amusingly really, the raid is supposed to "build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise." If only the game had some way, like hey like matchmaking, to aid getting these disparate groups of people together. But I guess only magic forum strangers can save us.

So the barrier is there to preserve the activity's goals but at no point in the post is it made clear how it actually does so or how matchmaking would meaningfully hinder it. Then again, trying to make sense out of glorified PR is probably a waste of time.

 

[atr0cious]

Playing while a part of DGAF and only seeing the members online like 2 times in the total full 2 week beta(PS3), has really left me cold to Destiny. I want this game, really do want it, but as a former competitive player, I'm a chatty cathy, especially when it comes to cooperative modes. Having to aim at someone and emote from half a map away, just to say hi, is not something I look forward to. And it doesn't help that the PS3s UI is really clunky and slow, and just trying to push out a message before they've stopped caring about the dancing hunter on the outcrop is not an activity I liked doing during the beta.

So if they want to do this elitist no randoms raid shit fine, but at least allow us a way to communicate, outside of arcane methods. The thought of proximity chat in explore mode should've been second nature, and i'm really disappointed there's not even an option to turn it on. I feel like I'm playing Mass Effect with some really good AI squad members.

 

[Static Jak]

I want this game, really do want it, but as a former competitive player, I'm a chatty cathy, especially when it comes to cooperative modes. Having to aim at someone and emote from half a map away, just to say hi, is not something I look forward to.

The emotes are like a crap version of charades. It's useless for real communication.

How am I meant to tell my team there's 3 guys at point A hiding in the corner when I can't say a damn word to them?

This is going to be an even bigger issue in The Iron Banner where you could be up against a guy twice your level. You desperately need that communication.

 

[J 0 E]

Problems running with randoms

-no communication
-not knowing how long they're committed to stay online for
-not listening to directions of people who have been in there before, people with experience
-risk of people dropping out after the first wipe
-risk of inviting a troll just to make people's lives miserable
-risk of Leroy Jenkins
-risk of people not taking it as serious as you


I'm all for no matchmaking, this is why we have the destinygaf clan

Its a small portion of the game yet here people are with their torches and pitchforks again.

I agree with all this but it should be the player's decision whether to group his friends or play with strangers


this limitation will prevent a lot of players from playing Raids.

 

[CookedChocobo]

3 hours to complete a raid or failing for 16 hours or taking 45 minutes on trash mobs before the boss is nothing. Those are very small numbers when we're talking about raids (in other games). Yet, people still do it in pick up groups just fine. It just spans over multiple days.

I know Bungie was bragging about those numbers to say, "Look how hardcore it is!" but those aren't very impressive. Nor do they show how hardcore a commitment Destiny's raiding requires in comparison to other games with raids.

RIGHT? I've spent several hours of the night on a single Raid boss in WOW (mostly played during Burning Crusade exp), these Destiny "raids" seem like kid's play haha.

 

[Karl Hawk]

More confirmation on Destiny's checkpoints:
http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/249934/Bungie+talks+difficulty,+raids,+and+future+content+in+Destiny/

And yes, they're well aware about the no matchmaking issue, but why not wait and see how the Raid plays out before we call the need for Raid matchmaking?

Keep in mind that Raid checkpoints won't last forever.