Twilight Gap
Member
The piece of string that came with the PS4 made me not want voice chat, so it was more tongue-in-cheek.
i otherwise agree with that list
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Destiny's raids will not support online matchmaking with random players.
- Thread starter sjay1994
- Start date
The piece of string that came with the PS4 made me not want voice chat, so it was more tongue-in-cheek.
i otherwise agree with that list
MADGAME
Member
I'm on team MM, but I have a speculative question. Advanced apologies if too far off-topic.
Did I hear in the IGN vid that the journey through the raid would prepare you for the end of the raid? In other words through the course of the raid, you will collect items and gear necessary to complete the raid? If that is true, then a raid would have to be completed with the same fireteam as opposed to saving at a checkpoint and resuming later with an alternate, since the alt may not have progressed through the previous part of the raid.
Example - 6 people play the raid and make it to the last checkpoint before the final encounter. One player can't play and finish before the weekly refresh, so an alt joins who either never played the raid or only made it to checkpoint one or two previously. If acquired gear along the way is required to win, the alt player wouldn't be possible.
So either an additional matchmaking layer would have to be implemented to account for previous progress in that particular week's raid, or restrict raid completion to the fireteam that originally started it or cancel the fireteam. This would be true regardless of group composition (all randoms, mix of randoms/fireteam or all fireteam)
tldr: If you need to acquire along the way in the raid to complete the raid, the raid would most likely need to be restricted to the original fireteam without complex matchmaking layers. I think this would still work with a restrictive matchmaking mechanic in the game (you may only continue a raid with the original fireteam).
Did I hear in the IGN vid that the journey through the raid would prepare you for the end of the raid? In other words through the course of the raid, you will collect items and gear necessary to complete the raid? If that is true, then a raid would have to be completed with the same fireteam as opposed to saving at a checkpoint and resuming later with an alternate, since the alt may not have progressed through the previous part of the raid.
Example - 6 people play the raid and make it to the last checkpoint before the final encounter. One player can't play and finish before the weekly refresh, so an alt joins who either never played the raid or only made it to checkpoint one or two previously. If acquired gear along the way is required to win, the alt player wouldn't be possible.
So either an additional matchmaking layer would have to be implemented to account for previous progress in that particular week's raid, or restrict raid completion to the fireteam that originally started it or cancel the fireteam. This would be true regardless of group composition (all randoms, mix of randoms/fireteam or all fireteam)
tldr: If you need to acquire along the way in the raid to complete the raid, the raid would most likely need to be restricted to the original fireteam without complex matchmaking layers. I think this would still work with a restrictive matchmaking mechanic in the game (you may only continue a raid with the original fireteam).
NullPointer
Member
While you're in the world or in the tower? I'm specifically asking about using R3 to invite players you see in the world. I've never done it but don't know how it works since explore (for example) is limited to 3 player fire teams - how could it allow you to add another three players?
MADGAME
Member
You can do it while in orbit. There are 6 slots.
I believe you can at the tower or orbit. You will just get an error when you try to launch campaign, strike or explore. Should work ok for Raids (like Crucible)
I agree.. I didn't play on xbone but I heard there were lots of problems with it. I like proximity chat, etc... As well. Would help make those friends along the way to end-game content so you have ppl to play with. That does need to be addressed.
NullPointer
Member
OK, so the tower is a place - and the only place in the world (ie. not in orbit) - where you can invite players to a fire team of six through the player interact menu (R3 on the PS4)?
Twilight Gap
Member
That's the way raids generally work in other games. You can't go from beginning to end in one go. You'll farm bosses along the way, getting geared up to progress further in the future. To be able to clear an entire raid in one go is considered having the raid on "farm status".
But generally, to clear a single raid, you may spend several weeks on just one of the many bosses.
Like say there are 5 bosses in a raid. You could potentially spend several weeks trying just the first boss. Once you get that down and can do it consistently (that boss would be on farm status), you can move on to working on the 2nd boss. Meanwhile, on every reset (every week), you will continue to clear the first boss before working on the 2nd. In the process, you will gear up your team with drops from the first boss.
By the time you make it to the 5th, you would have the previous 4 on farm and would have cleared them every week, which rewards you with loot to make the 5th boss easier.
So you are right. Match making would need to have some more complex filters. Perhaps going by a gear score or such things.
If match making was per boss (or per wing) rather than entire raid, they can gate off queuing based on a gear score for each boss (probably Light Levels or whatever they're called in Destiny).
LookAtMeGo
Member
It would be cool if you could have a little message over your head in the Tower or
saying "Looking for raiders" or something like that.
the Reef
DTR - Down To Raid
MADGAME
Member
Thank you, I actually learned a lot from your reply. The one thing I will clarify from my post though is I was wondering if bosses drop items you need to win as opposed to making it easier. In other words, boss 4 drops a piece of armor that makes you invulnerable to a gas/toxic hazard that must be equipped to proceed. Only players who progressed past that checkpoint would be able to proceed (as opposed to having an easier time because boss 4 dropped exotic weapon that boss 5 is prone to).
I appreciate the response!
KillerDark
Member
Typically thats not how it works, no. You just get better gear which makes you stronger for the next fights (which tend to get harder as you go on in the raid).
The item in question could be considered "attunement". In earlier WoW raids (Blizzard moved away from it) and in current Wildstar raids, you must meet some criteria to even get into the raid.
This would work the same way. To even be allowed to queue for a raid, you must have item X in your inventory. With that check (which is a relatively simple check compared to gear score), you could guarantee anyone who makes it in has cleared what they needed to.
Where I see it being too complicated for match making is if certain bosses require certain weapons of certain elements. Like if a boss can't be damaged by anything other than Fire weapons. It would be too complicated to check that everyone has an appropriate Fire-based weapon in their inventory and that it is appropriate strength for the encounter. Plus how would you communicate that requirement to the player? Telling them when they queue for it, "You must have a fire weapon of level X," spoils raid mechanics. Figuring out the mechanics of an encounter is like 90% of the fun of raiding.
bemusedchunk
Banned
LFR is a choice. And gives players the ability to see content they wouldn't otherwise see.
No reason not to have a matchmaking option these days. They will backpedal on this eventually.
LookAtMeGo
Member
I like it.
Or have a section of the map in the social areas where only those wanting to raid will hang out.
Exactly...they should save themselves the headaches and stress and just get it in for launch or a day 1 patch
Poodlestrike
Banned
I'm gonna have to side with team MM on this one. Not including the option is just a bad idea, especially in light of how poorly fleshed out Destiny's in-game social options are (no game chat with people not on your friends list, no in-game access to clans, no proximity chat, etc). If you really think it's a bad idea, stick a warning label on the group finder, but let us use it anyway.
Moon_frogger
Member
So if you guys are all ready to go with your premades and have a guild full of people or whatever ready to play at all hours of the day....exactly how does a matchmaking system negatively affect you again?
It would be really cool if there was a bar/club where you had to speak through your mic to a bouncer to get in.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
Because if randoms can beat the raid it would affect their elitism status.
Bungie is doing you a service by protecting you from a game mode that you're obviously not prepared for...
It doesn't affect those particular players at all. But that's beside the point.
GuitarAtomik
Member
This specifically is why I think matchmaking could work with the info we have. I don't even think it has to be as complicated as a gear check. We know there are checkpoints at certain points in the Raid. These points can be returned to at a later date. Why not restrict those resume points to the previously used character, and let them matchmake with others looking for someone else at the same point? It would probably take longer to scrounge those people up than say a Crucible match, but other MMOs have solved this by just queuing you up for it and letting you go about your business until the match is found.
Given only a few people in the entire world (The top clan couldn't finish it in 16 hours after all) stands a chance at finishing a Raid in its current states, it's inevitable that people will complain about how hard it is on message boards. With or without a matchmaking tool.
No self respecting or sane developer would blindly make balance tweaks to the game based solely on player feedback. They have a set of internal tools and metrics that can often tell them more than what user feedback can tell them.
After thinking/reading about it some more, I think we need to take a step back here and look at the social and fireteam management tools in the final game before passing judgement.
Thanks to WoW, the word RAID automatically brings a lot of baggage and triggers a lot of mixed emotions within people. Even if a WoW raid is nothing like a Destiny raid by simply calling it a raid is enough to dig up a ton of old wounds for various MMO vets.
I suspect the game as it's currently constructed is distinguishing between an invite/ friend / public built fireteam vs one built by the in game matchmaker .
The match maker built fireteam does not seem to have a lot of group tools(vote kick) Something like that would need to be addressed before a matchmaker raid can be made without a lot of headaches.
I'm in the camp that this issue isn't as black and white as it appears to be. A compromise can be made here, but it's down to whether or not Bungie does it themselves or rely on a 3rd party to do it for them.
Looking over the long term, in game friends will often retire or simply do not have enough time to commit to raids. Having to being someone else into your fireteam when tier 2, 3 or 4 opens needs to be as easy as possible to sustain a healthy raiding environment in the long term.
Anybody who's ever been raiding knows or have experienced this : friends, clan mates, guild mates permanently move on all the time. And as a raid leader you want to find the best possible replacement that fits your team. A lower barrier of entry allows for a larger pool of skilled players to choose from.
Raiding in the traditional sense always had a lot of options available for groups to find/replace members on an off night where the same 6 members were not available.
Having to call of a raid completely because one friend couldn't show up on one particular night is just utterly ridiculous. I think most raiders would agree to at least give it a try if they were one member short on a night - especially in a game like this where there was no severe penalty for dying outside of time.
The quickest way to lose a friend is to leave them out of your fireteam. For a 7, 8, or 9 member circle of friends this can be a deal breaker on some nights.
An in game opt in raid browser would go a long way towards helping fireteams that are a few members short to pick up a replacement.
TL;DR - the burden is on Bungie to provide a better social, chat and grouping tools if they want to legitimize a raid in a first person shooter.
Just making a stupidly hard 6 man encounter and calling it a day is incredibly short sighted for the long term health of the raid game.
No self respecting or sane developer would blindly make balance tweaks to the game based solely on player feedback. They have a set of internal tools and metrics that can often tell them more than what user feedback can tell them.
After thinking/reading about it some more, I think we need to take a step back here and look at the social and fireteam management tools in the final game before passing judgement.
Thanks to WoW, the word RAID automatically brings a lot of baggage and triggers a lot of mixed emotions within people. Even if a WoW raid is nothing like a Destiny raid by simply calling it a raid is enough to dig up a ton of old wounds for various MMO vets.
I suspect the game as it's currently constructed is distinguishing between an invite/ friend / public built fireteam vs one built by the in game matchmaker .
The match maker built fireteam does not seem to have a lot of group tools(vote kick) Something like that would need to be addressed before a matchmaker raid can be made without a lot of headaches.
I'm in the camp that this issue isn't as black and white as it appears to be. A compromise can be made here, but it's down to whether or not Bungie does it themselves or rely on a 3rd party to do it for them.
Looking over the long term, in game friends will often retire or simply do not have enough time to commit to raids. Having to being someone else into your fireteam when tier 2, 3 or 4 opens needs to be as easy as possible to sustain a healthy raiding environment in the long term.
Anybody who's ever been raiding knows or have experienced this : friends, clan mates, guild mates permanently move on all the time. And as a raid leader you want to find the best possible replacement that fits your team. A lower barrier of entry allows for a larger pool of skilled players to choose from.
Raiding in the traditional sense always had a lot of options available for groups to find/replace members on an off night where the same 6 members were not available.
Having to call of a raid completely because one friend couldn't show up on one particular night is just utterly ridiculous. I think most raiders would agree to at least give it a try if they were one member short on a night - especially in a game like this where there was no severe penalty for dying outside of time.
The quickest way to lose a friend is to leave them out of your fireteam. For a 7, 8, or 9 member circle of friends this can be a deal breaker on some nights.
An in game opt in raid browser would go a long way towards helping fireteams that are a few members short to pick up a replacement.
TL;DR - the burden is on Bungie to provide a better social, chat and grouping tools if they want to legitimize a raid in a first person shooter.
Just making a stupidly hard 6 man encounter and calling it a day is incredibly short sighted for the long term health of the raid game.
Perfect Cha0s
Member
Re: the bolded - Bungie has said that the raid isn't linear in difficulty. As you progress through, the levels of enemies increases, so in a roundabout way, you do "need" the gear from previous bosses, or else you won't be able to do enough damage.
GuitarAtomik
Member
100% agree with your whole post, but these points specifically. I think these are the main issues at hand.
They would actually need to increase the number of players in the Tower with you for this to be effective, otherwise you'll never be able to fill the Raid party.
I have no doubt that randoms could beat the Raid. Anyone who has played the game enough to be eligible to do the Raid will obviously be an experienced player with top gear. The type of players who Bungie think will ruin the Raid for others will NOT make it far enough to even be able to take part in the Raid, only the most dedicated players will, which is why this no matchmaking restriction is stupid.
This guy gets it
Not that it's an important point, but last I checked the game is coming out on PS3 as well.
If anyone is going to really suggest that the reason for not having MM in raids is because one of the 4 consoles the game is shipping on doesn't include a headset in the box...
I'd like to laugh in their face...
The argument wasn't about MM, it was a hypothetical about having a hard requirement of a headset for raiding.
And I wouldn't actually have a problem with that, as long as the game is clearly marked as such. That guy's response of "all consoles come with one, so no excuse" is not a valid response though.
HiredN00bs
Member
There's no fucking comparison between openly offering players a likely terrible experience and making a more functional OS. One is clearly wrong and one is clearly right. The second quote is in regards to people defending Nintendo having most of its Wii U OS navigable via their Pro controller but requiring the Gamepad for all system settings adjustments. Terrible retort, Rafterman, terrible.
Awesome post. This is a new thing for shooters. Much like Firefight in ODST, I have no doubt that Bungie could build a matchmaking structure to fit this experience. But it will take time and testing and iteration that they may not have at the moment. Some things in Destiny are tried-and-true battle-tested cornerstones. Others are gambles, risks, baby steps into unknown territory.
No, they are both clearly wrong.
The experience may be terrible and it may not be, you don't know one way or the other. For all the bitching about match making in other games I've had both bad and good experience with them, even in WoW. The fact is giving people the chance at a decent experience is better than no chance at all...it's that fucking simple. And the best part is it doesn't effect you in any way, shape, or fashion. It's not like adding a matchmaking system will stop you from running your pre-made groups, now is it?
I'm sorry but WHAT ?!
6 players *cough* I don't call that a raid *cough* but a party.
*breath heavely*
Blizzard, I love your 25 mans raids!!!!!!!!!!!
What about other players ?
You just say to them "too bad for you" ?
Seriously, I can understand the hate of Looking for group feature (because it's difficult to make all the players do their job correctly and they don't care about your point of view) but man :
- when you've 0 guildmates/friends online to team up, it sucks.
- groups/guilds can be really selective and can ask you to play at their pace otherwise you will risk to play alone.
- be able to connect and play when you can and when you want has a good taste of freedom.
I know what I'm talking since I was in a guild in multiple mmorpgs because there was no random matchmaking feature.
If I wanted to see the end game content, been in a guild was the only way for me. So I had to abide by their schedule (ex : 3 nights per week and it doesn't count farming normal dunjeons and I forgot that the raid are 4 hours long, so that 12 hours per week in raids) or wait for my turn to be put in a group in case a regular isn't there.
Also let's be honest small group of players will hardly let a stranger play with them, only when they need him but will toss him aside when their friends will be online.
So whatever people say about matchmaking been wrong, then they're either dishonest or been lucky because let's face it : group or guilds do isolate themselves from the rest of the other players of the game and only play between them. This system is also anti-social like the Looking for group feature but with different flaws.
WoW is 10 years old man!
Who wouldn't see their population decline over time seriously ?
It's still a miracle for me that we didn't reached 1M players after all those years.
Twilight Gap
Member
Already posted this but it's my favorite:
Players dont want to work hard, they dont want to read, and they dont want to go to the Internet to figure out our bullshit. - Jason Jones on Destiny
I wonder how (and when) Bungie is going to respond to the raid/voice chat discussion. Hopefully it'll be in one of the next few updates.
Ramocalypse
Member
It seems pretty evident to me that most people in this thread agree that Bungie needs to implement SOMETHING to help people find other players to raid with, be it a modified matchmaking, in game clan tools, or something along those lines. I hope Bungie is listening! I really want raid content to thrive.
Edit: for the record I still think they could just throw in straight up matchmaking and it would be fine.
Edit: for the record I still think they could just throw in straight up matchmaking and it would be fine.
HiredN00bs
Member
I seriously doubt that you think modifying the Wii U OS to allow the Pro controller to adjust system settings is wrong.
I don't know for sure, but here's what I do know:
-Bungie is excluding matchmaking from a part of their game that already has matchmaking in every nook and cranny; there's a reason for that
-The little we do know about raids is that they logistically require 6 active players and that they are fucking long, having built-in resume functionality, so some sort of sacrifice would have to be made, some significant change to the design of this particular part of the game that is NOT trivial
It wouldn't affect me. I wouldn't touch the amateur matchmaking hack the people in this thread are advocating with a 10-foot-pool, and fortunately, neither will the hard-working designers at Bungie. If they roll out matchmaking for raids, it will be done after much deliberation, iteration and testing.
Why doesn't Apple release prototype hardware? Why don't software developers all release public alphas and betas? And again...
Bungie is excluding matchmaking from a part of their game that already has matchmaking in every nook and cranny; there's a reason for that
It's not laziness. It's not stupidity. It's not understood well by anyone who's talking in this thread (aside from those developing/testing it who are under NDAs anyway). Am I going to give them the benefit of the doubt? I think they've earned it with their demonstrated performance. As I said, I'll be happy to discuss at length why this decision is good/bad once we all have those details. Saying it's a bad one right now is just ridiculously presumptuous. That being said, I think brainstorming on ways to make it work will be a worthwhile endeavor, and I'm sure the folks back at Bungie have already been doing the same.
In Destiny, it's really easy to inspect a player in your vicinity, size them up, and shoot them a message or invite if you think could be a good partner. There are almost always multiple players fighting alongside your Guardian. It really is a special thing for a shooter to have.
Offering a push-button match service is basically Bungie advocating it as a well-developed and viable option for a good player experience. They're not going to do that if it isn't actually that. It may be that the current design of raids makes that an impossibility.
Also:
and
should be added to the OP.
MM won't make it to launch, but the sooner they think about implementing it, the better. There will be more complaints about no MM than there would be about the difficulty of raids.
I didn't mention Strikes because they are already a MM activity. But outside of MM gametypes (like strikes and pvp) it's a no brainer to add Raid MM. Anyway this would be a non-issue as the MM wouldn't take more than 3 minutes. As to why no one thought of doing this before? Beats me. Mostly because there's a big separation of SP and MP in most shooters, unlike Destiny which is a HUB mp game, something between a tradicional game and MMO. Bungie can pick and chose any of the good things from MMO's and FPS games.
I disagree with your PvP vs PvE argument. You simply can not go with a bad build and expect to consistently beat players with the same skill level as you. That would happen with random matchmaking, not with what I'm talking about. On the other hand, AI is easily exploitable, and boy, will it be, especially in Raids when players figure out some neat tricks, edges, AI routes and behavior, and so on.
About your last point. I think its irrelevant, Bungie said so themselves, classes aren't relevant, they can't be because it's an organic experience (meaning they don't want fixed roles, any assortment of classes can beat raids), the only thing that matters is damage type. I wouldn't pick my Arc Titan when facing "shock" resistant factions - that's just common sense, something everyone will have when it's time to raid. But ANY void class (including my titan subclass) would do just fine.
Putting all of that aside, you could actually pick what roll you like to fill and what you'd like to get before entering in the queue, something like this
And there are more features being added to this impressive MM system.
I talked about a Raid MM NPC previously (like a buildboard of players or player cards), some of what you read in that last link could be implemented too. A nice mix of manual picking and autonomous MM. All of it in-game
We agree to disagree and this will be my last post here, I've already said everything I have to say. You undervalue MM and the ability of people to play in a new group, while overstating the difficulty of Destiny raiding. I think players at that level are comperent enough to at least try, and after trying for a while, actually succeding. With time knowledge spreads and players get better at the game. My argument is that Bungie shouldn't judge and restrict us before we get any opportunity to prove ourselves.
Most of you guys look at extremes. It's either NOTHING in-game, or "completely random trashy dumb" Matchmaking. There are so many good solutions to the problem and I keep giving examples from the top of my head. I'm sure designers from bungie can do a better job than me, and I hope they will in the future.
Ramocalypse
Member
Yes, there is, and its quite obvious what the reason is as they have pretty much laid it out there. They feel that the experience would more often than not be frustrating with random players. Many people including myself disagree with this being a good reason to create a barrier for entry.
Luke said in his post that you quoted previously, that he fully expects players to be able to beat a raid in well under 3 hours. I dont think its that "fucking long" as you put it. Also, Im not sure why you think opening the mode up to pugs would require some fundamental change to the game, kind of a jump to conclusion there.
You seem awfully predisposed to dismiss any arguments for match-making "hacks" here, that torch you're carrying must be getting awfully heavy at this point
(I love bungie too, but even large multi-million dollar development studios can make mistakes some times)Again, its plainly obvious why they didn't include as they have spelled it out for us. There are plenty of good valid arguments in the thread based on Bungies current reasoning as to why they did not include matchmaking, so there are plenty of things to debate over as far as the legitimacy of that reasoning. I dont see any reason to delay discussion about it, there is plenty we can gather from what they have said to discuss it.
Yes, im glad bungie included that in this game, but it really doesn't apply to the advocacy of not having match making, its still just another hoop to jump through to fill out a raid party.
Obviously we will all have to take a wait and see on the approach that they are taking, but my biggest fear for this game is the speed at which players could be dropping out of the end game due to this decision. It could essentially render the entire raid concept DOA. PS Sorry for the melodrama...
Under 3 hours when its on farm status. The first couple times you will have no idea what to do since there's no way points or updating objectives.
Twilight Gap
Member
This thread has provided some great discussion and suggestions on both ends and I have learned a lot about these kinds of games. Despite our disagreements, these points have been echoed in unison:
Again, many excellent cases have been made. We agree that Raids should be as accessible as possible to all who wish to play it, but without undermining its value or otherwise compromising its design. And part of its design is for players to first tackle it with arranged and coordinated groups and not with matchmade ones, whether it's entirely randomized or a mix of teams. This is, of course, the root of this contention, so as I attempt to round off my part in it, I will first refer to this quote from Luke:
I feel like this is very curiously worded. When was the last time anyone matchmade into game that lasted more than an hour? Two? Three? I've had sessions longer than that with friends and other players I've grouped together, but I've never committed to a matchmade game with the same group of guys in a console shooter for such a length of time.
Going further, we have this quote from urk:
As has already been mentioned in this thread, that length of time represents the early stages of a Raid in which players are learning the encounters and equipping the best gear to tackle the boss. When it reaches farm status, that time will be cut very short. And it has to, because:
That's a long time to break down a door. Fortunately, we have these:
Perhaps i'm retreading, but all of these quotes have led me to believe that these Raids require as much an investment in the mode itself as it is in who you are playing with. As these groups pick apart these Raids and those encounters grow shorter, I'd expect to see them roll out some form of Raid specific matchmaking - one that does not simply group you with players or suggest an optimal experience.
Whether this comes off as "shielding you from frustrating encounters", "inconveniencing you to put up a senseless barrier", or just laziness, they're firmly standing by this choice. When Raids become available, players will have to manually form groups to tackle them. When Raids have been conquered and strategies have been shared, they will be opened up. In many ways, it represents the premise of the game itself - that this is our journey and story to tell. The Raids are the ultimate challenge in Destiny, and those who step up to it will pave the way for the rest of us. Bungie loves community driven content, especially on a grand scale, and this is the most literal realization of that.
I don't mean to suggest that Bungie is exempt from making bad decisions - some of which they're discussing internally as I type this - or that this is a perfect system. It's important that we continue to have this dialog so that the game can continue to improve and grow. My own suggestions and feedback will always ring loudly, but until I learn more of how this system functions, I can only offer so much.
- Raids should deliver challenging end-game content and not have their difficulty compromised.
- Raids should accommodate players with less play time.
- Grouping for a Raid should be more convenient, whether it's through [tailored] matchmaking or an enhancement to social features, including proximity chat and an in-game clan list.
Again, many excellent cases have been made. We agree that Raids should be as accessible as possible to all who wish to play it, but without undermining its value or otherwise compromising its design. And part of its design is for players to first tackle it with arranged and coordinated groups and not with matchmade ones, whether it's entirely randomized or a mix of teams. This is, of course, the root of this contention, so as I attempt to round off my part in it, I will first refer to this quote from Luke:
I feel like this is very curiously worded. When was the last time anyone matchmade into game that lasted more than an hour? Two? Three? I've had sessions longer than that with friends and other players I've grouped together, but I've never committed to a matchmade game with the same group of guys in a console shooter for such a length of time.
Going further, we have this quote from urk:
16 hours and they failed to clear.
As has already been mentioned in this thread, that length of time represents the early stages of a Raid in which players are learning the encounters and equipping the best gear to tackle the boss. When it reaches farm status, that time will be cut very short. And it has to, because:
That's a long time to break down a door. Fortunately, we have these:
Perhaps i'm retreading, but all of these quotes have led me to believe that these Raids require as much an investment in the mode itself as it is in who you are playing with. As these groups pick apart these Raids and those encounters grow shorter, I'd expect to see them roll out some form of Raid specific matchmaking - one that does not simply group you with players or suggest an optimal experience.
Whether this comes off as "shielding you from frustrating encounters", "inconveniencing you to put up a senseless barrier", or just laziness, they're firmly standing by this choice. When Raids become available, players will have to manually form groups to tackle them. When Raids have been conquered and strategies have been shared, they will be opened up. In many ways, it represents the premise of the game itself - that this is our journey and story to tell. The Raids are the ultimate challenge in Destiny, and those who step up to it will pave the way for the rest of us. Bungie loves community driven content, especially on a grand scale, and this is the most literal realization of that.
I don't mean to suggest that Bungie is exempt from making bad decisions - some of which they're discussing internally as I type this - or that this is a perfect system. It's important that we continue to have this dialog so that the game can continue to improve and grow. My own suggestions and feedback will always ring loudly, but until I learn more of how this system functions, I can only offer so much.
I really don't understand the reasoning behind opening things up later. If you actually can coordinate a public group to get anything done, then you should be able to from the start. If you can't coordinate a public group to get anything done, then why bother opening it up?
No, this is the complete opposite. This is babying gamers and telling them they have to play the game one certain way whether they like it or not.
No, this is the complete opposite. This is babying gamers and telling them they have to play the game one certain way whether they like it or not.
All these discussions bring back memories from my raid leader days...simple solutions would be to include some kind of clan chat or way to communicate to destinygaf ingame that you're DTR. Other solution could br that you can start a fireteam and then friends of friends can also join. Would make it easier to make a 6 man fireteam
Twilight Gap
Member
"Babying gamers" would be their decision to omit proximity chat to "foster positive communications" instead of giving players control over that. Designing a game to be played the way they intended it to be played is kinda the point of game design though.
You're free to dislike that and join the chorus criticizing it. I'm usually in the front row, but this is going to go in circles until there is more info and footage to speculate on.
My only real concern here is the apparent lack of social features. Chat, proximity voice chat, etc... the world feels like a very lonely place, not at all social.
I just hope there's some kind of system in game to flag yourself as looking for an active raid group, or a board to advertise that you're looking for players to join.
I could live without MM for raids, but not if what we've seen is the only way to add people.
I just hope there's some kind of system in game to flag yourself as looking for an active raid group, or a board to advertise that you're looking for players to join.
I could live without MM for raids, but not if what we've seen is the only way to add people.