Ramocalypse
Member
Its not as easy for some people as you think unfortunately. 90% of the people I play with are IRL friends, and I'm sure Im not exactly in the minority here.
Also, what this guy said
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Destiny's raids will not support online matchmaking with random players.
- Thread starter sjay1994
- Start date
Don't forget that they have the right personality and skills.
I've outlined how absolutely easy it is to meet people in an online game. Your response was to make up some bullshit about how a majority of people don't do that. How you even fucking know that is beyond me.
Well, maybe they should start. Boo-fucking-hoo to those who don't have the inclination to meet this challenge as its currently defined. No need to retune it just so it caters to you. Entitlement is the fucking WORST.
Ramocalypse
Member
OHHH, thats how you make friends!
TriniTrin
war of titties grampa
He is really good at it! just look!
Well look who's rude now.
If you can't understand that millions of people playing a game are not going to share the same idea about befriending random strangers, then you're living in a bubble. And nobody asked them to retune the game. Make it as hard as you want. Let the randoms struggle for eternity. Just let them join together.
Yes, I think Bungie is suggesting that.
Twilight Gap
Member
"I don't have a headset, Bungie. Why can't I just play Raids without it? Why do you want me to go out to the store and spend $15 to play a game mode I already paid for?"
Ramocalypse
Member
And do you agree with that?
Hard to say without seeing the content. They built it and have tested it. My point is, based on what they've said, raids are designed for a specific subset of players who are committed to not only long game sessions but to working with one another (communicating) to getting through it. Having just one person not be a part of the team can potentially ruin your experience with raids and make you less likely to return in the future. With or without friends.
Please, let devs make the games they want to make. Their own way.
Those raids are meant to be something special you can't do without a fire team of your own. So what is the problem?
I was a very active FFXIV player until recently. MM on this game just feels a pain in the ass. Everything is made easier for the randoms to succeed. There isn't challenge anymore, just nerfs all over the place. And I don't count those guys quitting midway through or randomly being hostile to you because of that "you don't play like you should you moron, I'm an expert" way of life. I've destroyed Titan EX as healer, the thing that is stupidly the most hard thing in there (because as an european, I'm randomly killed by the latency if I'm not in full action hero mode). Everything in this game is always the same (strategy known = win) so randoms are kicked/bullied when they don't have seen everything on YouTube before trying. Like that. Only option left is doing your own group and it's maybe the best thing to enjoy in this game.
So yeah. Enjoy Destiny with friends. It's meant to be played this way. And it's great to me. If it's not for you, it's okay, games aren't meant to be for everyone. Or just send letters to the infamous movie-maker in charge of your favorite franchise to expose your thoughts about making it for you only, your way. (You wouldn't okay? /sarcasm)
GAF is a test group or what?
Those raids are meant to be something special you can't do without a fire team of your own. So what is the problem?
I was a very active FFXIV player until recently. MM on this game just feels a pain in the ass. Everything is made easier for the randoms to succeed. There isn't challenge anymore, just nerfs all over the place. And I don't count those guys quitting midway through or randomly being hostile to you because of that "you don't play like you should you moron, I'm an expert" way of life. I've destroyed Titan EX as healer, the thing that is stupidly the most hard thing in there (because as an european, I'm randomly killed by the latency if I'm not in full action hero mode). Everything in this game is always the same (strategy known = win) so randoms are kicked/bullied when they don't have seen everything on YouTube before trying. Like that. Only option left is doing your own group and it's maybe the best thing to enjoy in this game.
So yeah. Enjoy Destiny with friends. It's meant to be played this way. And it's great to me. If it's not for you, it's okay, games aren't meant to be for everyone. Or just send letters to the infamous movie-maker in charge of your favorite franchise to expose your thoughts about making it for you only, your way. (You wouldn't okay? /sarcasm)
GAF is a test group or what?
GuitarAtomik
Member
Reading through the whole thread and considering the arguments from both sides, I'm going to have to side on the pro-matchmaking side for now. I understand that it's not the ideal way you're going to want to play it, but it seems like it should be an option.
I could be swayed to the other side if we could get a breakdown or an example of a Destiny raid to understand how in depth and complicated it is. If it truly is something that will almost be impossible to complete without very strict communication and strategy, I could understand the merit of the decision. I also understand the length of the raids is a good reason to not have it, but considering there are points to save and return, I think there could be things that could be done to still keep matchmaking feasible (like when returning, you could be matchmade with other people who are at the same point). Unfortunately we don't have enough info to really make that call yet.
I could be swayed to the other side if we could get a breakdown or an example of a Destiny raid to understand how in depth and complicated it is. If it truly is something that will almost be impossible to complete without very strict communication and strategy, I could understand the merit of the decision. I also understand the length of the raids is a good reason to not have it, but considering there are points to save and return, I think there could be things that could be done to still keep matchmaking feasible (like when returning, you could be matchmade with other people who are at the same point). Unfortunately we don't have enough info to really make that call yet.
KrM DeLorean
Member
No one is forcing you to do the raid, do the solo friendly stuff.
Or play one of the thousands of solo shooters out there.
TriniTrin
war of titties grampa
Yeah, since we have no idea how things work in their Raids, we do not really know if this design is good or not.
But we do know they are taking a choice away from players regardless.
I do not think it will be like a traditional MMO so all of the people talking about how matchmaking ruined WoW must be thinking in traditional MMO sense. Most likely this game is NOTHING like the MMO's on the market.
I am trying to imagine how different a raid and its coordination would be for an MMO going from 25-10 peeps down to 6 people. Obviously gameplay is going to be vastly different from traditional MMO's and you can already tell based on the beta how some of the typical features in MMO are missing. Not to mention the gameplay is FPS based rather than skill bar based and the roles of each class are simplified compared to other MMO games. (From what has been shown)
It's the other way around. It isn't doable with MM so they can make it complicated and hard. If it was doable with MM no-one would build a team for it and everyone would complain because it's too difficult to do.
Options aren't always good. In FIFA I have the options of playing with assisted controls or full manual controls. Full manuals are objectively better (because you have more control... more gameplay... The better game) but then in online games it's only an option (there isn't a particular mode just for full manual), problem is: a full manual can't compete against a assisted player so you have to go for the filter getting you only manual players but then you find no one because no one is "forced" to play like this (in a particular mode).
In terms of game design. It's better to force you into something than getting many options everyone will ignore for the easiest. I want to experience the thing like it was meant to be. Without MM? Hard and complicated so I have to build my own fire team? Good. I wouldn't have to even talk to other players for the whole game if it wasn't built like this, like just an option.
Rockandrollclown
lookwhatyou'vedone
No match making and no in game tools for communication and group making is pretty fail. Having to rely on methods outside of the game to do part of the game is just bad design imo.
TriniTrin
war of titties grampa
You literally lose nothing with the option being there. You can still play the game "as the developer intended"
Please, tell me how having an option to use matchmaking for Raids will cause you to not experience the game as Bungie intended...
Because you can still play the way they designed it. No dev should force you into a particular action if there is a way to make a choice.
This is one of the biggest concerns I have regarding Destiny, based on what I played in the Alpha and Beta; getting random players together into a Fireteam was a bit of a chore. If someone wasn't on your Friend List, you had to go up to them in the game world, press R3 to open a menu and invite them into your Fireteam, then have them accept that invite, upon which they were sent back into Orbit automatically only to be sent into another loading screen to rejoin you in what they were already doing. It was definitely one of the weakest points considering the pretty big 'social' focus and I hope Bungie realizes this.
I'm hoping they streamline that process and maybe even eventually add an area in the Tower where people can place specific requests for Fireteam members.
But there is. You can join a group (and then talk) or let everyone able to join yours.
Difficult content requires team work and prep
My question is, the people complaining not listing why they won't run with fellow neogaf members, or are they just taking up someone who doesn't even post heer side, just for the sake of argument and to bash Bungie.
TheCanisDirus
Member
Completely true. I doubt they will though. They seem pretty adamant on their "vision" for chat.
Twilight Gap
Member
There are in-game tools, but they're unrefined and in some cases contradictory to this decision. Those need to be improved regardless.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say since that's more or less what I said. If it's pretty much impossible for randoms to complete, I somewhat understand the decision. Unfortunately we don't know enough about the raids to make that call.
Or are you trying to say because they can't do matchmaking (for some technical reason), they can now make it really hard?
Ramocalypse
Member
Another side to this argument that not many people are discussing is the concept of creating content for a tiny percentage of the player base. How do you justify spending resources developing content that is intentionally exclusionary? That is money that could be spent on the development of more story missions, exotic items, mp maps, etc. The concept of Raiding is awesome to me personally, but I also really want to see this game succeed. There has to be a happy medium out there that justifies the inclusion of this type of content, Im pretty sure there are already difficulty levels for the raid (Luke mentioned it in his post), it seems like those who really want that challenge will be able to get it with or without matchmaking, and those who dont can take the easier route, but have the option to fill out groups efficiently. I have faith that Bungie will come up with something so that more people can enjoy this type of content.
Its about the longevity of that type of content. Putting up barriers like this only increases the chances that less people will play it, thus less likely they create more like it.
TriniTrin
war of titties grampa
Nothing to do with that, I fully intend to play with GAF and have already joined the groups. The issue I have is they are deciding to make people do that instead of giving them a choice to play with randoms if they want.
Difficult content requires team work and prep, yes.. If you do not think people can do that with strangers, how is playing with people you do not know on GAF any different? Also, there are tons of games that have matchmaking with team oriented combat (MOBA's, FPS games, ect.) I have played several games of DOTA where I joined randomly and we still communicated enough to get a win. I added them to my friends list and play with them whenever I can! Can't do that in destiny....
Twilight Gap
Member
What is very likely to happen is that they will open the Raid up to matchmaking when a new one becomes available. Thus the Raid becomes more accessible at the loss of its "exclusive end-game" title, which then goes to the new one.
And it isn't really exclusive. It looks like they want you to deliberately go out of your way to establish a group of players to strategize and play it with. That's why you can only earn a Raid reward once a week; it's not something you turn your console on and matchmake into as soon as you get on. That's what Strikes are for.
My issue with this personally is the lack of an in-game clan roster and the hassle of creating fireteams, which make the process more inconvenient than it ought to be.
I'm saying they disable MM for this in order to be able to make it very hard and complicated. If MM was an option for this, they would have to streamline the content because everyone will attempt it without caring about building a fire team for it (and fail), or even because guys will be hostile to the others who never have done it before (and so don't know yet the mechanics in place) and because it has to not be too long to avoid problem with leavers (and even trolls).
It's a silly slippery slopea argument that states that if they allow matchmaking, they are apparently hogtied into also making the Raid easier too.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
My question is why anyone would be against providing more options other than being selfish?
Ramocalypse
Member
It really doesn't make good sense at all. Luke Smith already stated here earlier that there are multiple difficulty levels for the raid.
So there are already multiple difficulties, making the exclusion of MM even more unnecessary.
GuitarAtomik
Member
Oh. Well I think that's too much of an assumption to make since adding matchmaking puts no obligation on them to make it easier. I think a warning screen the first time you attempt it explaining that it's recommended you party up with friends and expressing the difficulty and time commitment is sufficient enough. If people go in with the expectation that it will be hard and are properly explained what they're about to get in to, they should have nothing to complain about if they lose in a PUG group. The type of people that do, and decide to never play it again would probably never have partied up the "proper" way anyway and nothing of value is lost. It's just as likely that people who try it in a PUG group and find it too hard because of said group would then go search out a more structured group and join clans etc.
In other words, the worst that could happen is that people who were never going to party up will stop playing it anyway. At least that way, others not bothered by it would have the option.
If you have to leave the game to get a group together to play said game, then someone failed at designing the game somewhere along the way.
I had the same issue with Warframe back when the PS4 first came out. The ingame friend manager sucked ass.
I assume Bungie plans to make more raids for this game through DLC. What reason will they have to invest in raids if only a few people actually experience the raids due to this? If 20% of players actually able to coordinate with a group of people and be able to join a raid, why would the other 80% have a single reason to buy additional raids?
Arkage
Banned
So why not nerf the raids for random groups? That way everyone gets equal access to the content without demanding you have a group of friends gaming at the same exact time.
EDIT: Oh, I see there already are difficulty options for the raids. Well, that's a bunch of bullshit then. I'm sure they're already scaling the quality of the loot drops to the difficulty you play on, so there really is no excuse to not have random matchmaking going on with an easy difficulty level.
Because it'll be included with other content in the DLC most players will want. And you're making an argument based on participation ratios that you're pulling out of thin air. Yeah, if it was 20%, a standalone raid DLC would be a tough sell.
This. I don't see how these raids are going to be so difficult that they need a correct grouping of people that needs to know each other and pre-organize. In the alpha and beta it seems the difficult enemies were difficult because they took a long time to kill with the weak weapons, not because of any high strategy needed or super fantastic AI.
I think raids can easily be level and item gated if they are concerned about low levels accessing the areas, but nothing we have seen so far would indicate that a group of already high level players with even moderate cooperation would not be able to tackle things successfully. And not every raid needs to be successful. That's part of the fun. Sometimes you make it, sometimes you wipe and can start over if you wish.
I do hope they allow a stronger invite/schedule system if they don't provide matchmaking though. Set up a scheduled raid and open it up for signups from the clan, send reminders, then if someone does not show up on the spot, allow the spot to be filled by clan, or invite, or openly match.
Kalamari
Member
I was thinking the same thing, why not just add carebear mode for matchmaking. They can still see the content but without the difficulty, or rewards, for completing the higher difficulty levels.
Not to sound elitist, but I think many people discount the amount of patience required for learning and completing a challenging raid dungeon. It is far easier to be patient with people you know than with people you don't.
Ramocalypse
Member
It really seems like they are going for an MMO lite approach to this game, streamlining processes wherever possible, minimizing ui clutter, etc. Raiding seems to be the only thing that is progressing backwards as far as streamlining goes. I would honestly prefer MM over an intricate calendar/invitation/flagging system, its just not nearly as elegant. Though more in-game clan implementation is desperately needed.
People seem to think that raids in Destiny make the Souls game look like childsplay.....
CyclopsRock
Member
But why is that mutually exclusive to MM? For those that can, they can play with friends. For those that can, I imagine there are some that would prefer to chance it with random people than not access that content at all. And it's not like they don't have the tech implemented elsewhere in the game.
Have people already made the comparison to custom lobbies from Halo? I have no experience with MMOs, but I do with Halo, and there was never matchmaking in place for custom lobbies but it sort of organically grew into a huge community and people managed to make customs a huge part of the Halo experience.
Sometimes you just had friends invite you, or friends of friends, and other times you just got a random invite from someone going through their recent players list.
Just a thought.
Sometimes you just had friends invite you, or friends of friends, and other times you just got a random invite from someone going through their recent players list.
Just a thought.
pieatorium
Member
but there is no way of knowing what the group is for until you join it
NullPointer
Member
Can you compose a group of six players while within public spaces and/or the tower? Aren't you limited to three players in campaign, strike and explore?
XB1 and ps4 came with a headset, so no excuse.
pieatorium
Member
you can make a 6 man team yeah. Crucible was 6 players
While I do not know what the participation percentage will be, I don't think it will be that high if it stays as is and communication stays as lacking as it is.