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[Digital Foundry] Batman Arkham City PS4 Pro: What If Every Game Got A Pro Upgrade?

DBT85

Member
I thought it was said that Pro enable games had to be 1080P? The post I responded to was about Moto Racer 4 which dark10x believes to be running in 900P.


That to me seems like a game that is just running better because of fp16 & not actually using PS4 Pro mode.

I don't know one end of a floating point from another, but if on PS4 fp16 takes just as long to calculate as fp32, why would you use it? On that basis, why would this game have a bunch of fp16 stuff in.

As for Moto Racer, maybe it's because it's a stealth patch or something or a mistake that's done it. The game looks identical, just at a better framerste. There are no pro "enhancements" so they've not had to pimp it to 1080 maybe.

Someone just run all 3 through the proxy.
 

horkrux

Member
But if it's easy and free, why doesn't the other game in the collection take the same advantage? Why doesn't every game released?

Because no matter how small the required effort, it means getting another patch out which isn't a free process.

So while I understand wanting this to be a simple, effective route to across-the-board improvements, I don't see how some people have convinced themselves that it is.

Well, some developers have only like one guy working on it. I mean it's an indicator that it might not be that big of a deal to hit that switch, with the major task being optimizing the game for the new quality settings.

And as mentioned many times before: Vita and PSP have set a precedent of such a switch causing no trouble at all.
 

onQ123

Member
I don't know one end of a floating point from another, but if on PS4 fp16 takes just as long to calculate as fp32, why would you use it? On that basis, why would this game have a bunch of fp16 stuff in.

As for Moto Racer, maybe it's because it's a stealth patch or something or a mistake that's done it. The game looks identical, just at a better framerste. There are no pro "enhancements" so they've not had to pimp it to 1080 maybe.

Someone just run all 3 through the proxy.

Performance Benefits of Half Precision Floats

Half precision floats are 16-bit floating-point numbers, which are half the size of traditional 32-bit single precision floats, and have lower precision and smaller range. When high precision is not required, half-floats can be a useful format for storing floating-point numbers because they require half the storage space and half the memory bandwidth. Using the new half-float conversion instructions introduced with the 3rd generation Intel® Core™ processor family, it is possible to gain better performance in applications that load or store floating-point values in certain scenarios where 16-bit precision is sufficient. In particular, half-floats may provide better performance than 32-bit floats when the 32-bit float data does not fit into the L1 cache.
 

Carn82

Member
Also Xbox and PS4 are clearly different. Maybe all Xbox games are developed with a higher level of forced abstraction which allows the upclock to be 'seen' by games without patching, maybe the PS4 could have more issues with doing that - especially as the CPU upclock is much higher, and the GPU is much more different too. Perhaps Sony even tried internally testing some games and found too many issues, so they took this route? We don't know

Yep.

Good thing I bookmarked these posts.

Sure, you could solve a lot of these problems with somethinkg like an API layer that solves some of those issues, but my guess is that Sony didnt want to invest in that. I think it does work on the Xbox One S because Microsoft use a few more virtualisation layers in their OS-stack.


it's not just the architecture or hardware. Xbox One's operating system is basically a version of windows 10 and a hypervisor that runs virtual machines. The games load into a VM, that again communicates through (mostly DirectX) with the windows OS. I'm not familiar with all the inner workings, but this setup allows Microsoft more scalability than Sony's setup (probably at a performance cost).

Also, not all software (and hardware, for that matter) is build for scalability. Building support for scalability usually also comes at a performance hit, because you need to balance things out somewhere.
 

zewone

Member
It'd be nice if they added the option to overclock for unpatched games.

If you could toggle it on and off, it shouldn't be an issue if some games have problems. Just turn it off.
 
We can only speculate but given that this collection seems to have been through some development hell, maybe Asylum was finished much earlier and while they were finishing up City the Pro stuff became available so they threw it in.

Or maybe Asylum is configured in exactly the same way but because it is already capped to 30FPS (and I believe the base PS4 pretty much sticks to that?) there's essentially no improvement to see.
Yeah, exactly: we can only speculate. That's fine and all, but some people seem to have decided "my speculation must be the actual case!" without any evidence.

Because no matter how small the required effort, it means getting another patch out which isn't a free process.
How much does it cost to patch a game?
 

onQ123

Member
Is there any indie PSN games or remasters on PS4 with frame rate problems? Maybe these are the games that should be tested on PS4 Pro to see if they run better.
 
I don't think this is about 'stance' or 'policy' as you suggest. Simply, MS from the get go - before release od X1 - had a vision of unified Windows platform with Xbox as a gaming brand, where we'd access the games via PC, Xbox Scorpio, X1(S) maybe even Surface tablets and phones; and the experience - resolution, framerate, level of detail, etc. - would be scaled up/down depending on your hardware. That could also explain why X1's development environment was such a mess - compared to that of Sony's, allegedly "a hardware company"! - at the beginning, simply because they were aiming for a much higher goal and there probably were delays with DX12, Windows10, etc. Because of that plan the devs were required to use higher-level APIs to make their games, e.g. if game wants to draw a line it'll say to the operating system "draw me a straight line from coordinates X1/Y1 to X2/Y2 in color RGB".

Sony, I think, came up with the idea of incremental updates later in the process and many games already were using their more low-level API (called GNM, I think?) to get more from the hardware, so in PS4 case the game instead of saying "draw me a line" would actually order the GPU to light up' individual pixels in the graphics memory buffer.

That (very, very simplified example! :)) could make the PS4 games run faster (because there's no middle man interpreting the orders), but also made the software very much dependant on the underlying hardware. Xbox's "interpretation" layer allows to more easily swap the GPU or increase its clock and see the benefits right away - the software patch would only have to be done once, on the system / interpreter level. Whereas for PS4 it would probably break things, unless specifically patched for each game.

So, as I say it's not a matter of stance or policy - simply in this case I think MS was smarter and more forward-looking.
Not all games use GNM (low-level API, kinda like Mantle/DX12) though. Most games (especially multi-platform ones) use GNMX (Sony's DX11-esque, high-level API). This incurs a higher CPU overhead (draw calls).

Batman clearly doesn't use GNM. There are remasters that run at 1080p60 (Uncharted Trilogy by Bluepoint and TLOU by ND).

It seems like some other games may have received silent support.

So I have Moto Racer 4 (which I expected more from but ultimately it's an average game).

On the standard PS4 it seems to average ~45-50fps during races. It isn't smooth at all.

Now, there's no mention of Pro support in this game but, on the Pro, it basically holds a solid 60fps now (outside of intro fly-bys).

The resolution hasn't changed from the base mode (which appears to be 900p) but the performance is so much better.

Leads me to believe that there could be other "secret" Pro games out there where developers implemented support for the system without mentioning it.
I thought 1080p was "mandatory" for Pro games?
 

antyk

Member
Not all games use GNM (low-level API, kinda like Mantle/DX12) though. Most games (especially multi-platform ones) use GNMX (Sony's DX11-esque, high-level API). This incurs a higher CPU overhead (draw calls).

And? My point is that if not all games used GNMX, it wasn't simply possible for Sony to allow unpatched games run at higher clocked CPU & GPU. And my question was if Sony's policy with regards to this will (has?) change, i.e. if use of GNMX-like API will be required, to ensure easier / safer scalability of the software.

In this case it's very clear that MS had an advantage (and foresight) as a "software company" and I'm saying that as a huge supporter of Sony hardware (owner of PS4, PS3, PSVita, Xperia Z4 Tablet, Xperia Z3 Compact phone, etc.).
 
And? My point is that if not all games used GNMX, it wasn't simply possible for Sony to allow unpatched games run at higher clocked CPU & GPU. And my question was if Sony's policy with regards to this will (has?) change, i.e. if use of GNMX-like API will be required, to ensure easier / safer scalability of the software.

In this case it's very clear that MS had an advantage (and foresight) as a "software company" and I'm saying that as a huge supporter of Sony hardware (owner of PS4, PS3, PSVita, Xperia Z4 Tablet, Xperia Z3 Compact phone, etc.).
The problem with GNMX (and higher-level APIs in general such as DX11/OpenGL) is the higher CPU overhead, especially when it comes to draw calls and lack of multi-threading.

Mandating GNMX use with the Jaguar CPU is a very, very bad idea... don't you agree? If you want to achieve 60 fps (or at least rock-solid 30 fps), it's an absolute necessity to use all available (up to 7) Jaguar cores.

The only reason GNMX exists is because Sony wants certain "lazy" devs to easily port PC games to the PS4. It's clearly not ideal though and I explained why.

Regarding MS, I get your point, but they still confuse me with their corporate strategy. DX12 is also a low-level API, but on the other hand UWP seems more like a high-level abstraction (for example, it doesn't give developers access to the eSRAM). UWP porting is also not ideal (PC ports of GoW Remaster and Forza Horizon 3).

Spencer has said that XB1 games might need to be patched for Scorpio... on the other hand, XB1 S didn't need any patches. So yeah, it's confusing to figure out what exactly they're trying to do.
 

antyk

Member
The problem with GNMX (and higher-level APIs in general such as DX11/OpenGL) is the higher CPU overhead, especially when it comes to draw calls and lack of multi-threading.

Mandating GNMX use with the Jaguar CPU is a very, very bad idea... don't you agree? If you want to achieve 60 fps (or at least rock-solid 30 fps), it's an absolute necessity to use all available (up to 7) Jaguar cores.

The only reason GNMX exists is because Sony wants certain "lazy" devs to easily port PC games to the PS4. It's clearly not ideal though and I explained why.

Regarding MS, I get your point, but they still confuse me with their corporate strategy. DX12 is also a low-level API, but on the other hand UWP seems more like a high-level abstraction (for example, it doesn't give developers access to the eSRAM). UWP porting is also not ideal (PC ports of GoW Remaster and Forza Horizon 3).

Spencer has said that XB1 games might need to be patched for Scorpio... on the other hand, XB1 S didn't need any patches. So yeah, it's confusing to figure out what exactly they're trying to do.

Oh, I definitely agree that requiring utilisation of high-level API will impose performance penalty and that's particularly bad for current consoles, but - in the end - you can't eat the cake and still have it: you can't have easy scalability of software running on iterative consoles, without that abstraction. Unless you want to put the burden on the devs, to update & re-compile each game when new hardware appears, but then the devs & publishers won't be happy and most certainly gamers won't be happy - hence threads like this one.

The case with X1S is different I think, because it's exactly the same hardware, just clocked higher. For PS4Pro the GPU - in addition to having 2x the CUs and higher clock - is fundamentally a jump from 2nd gen GCN (Sea Islands) to 4th gen (Arctic Islands) which I'm sure adds a lot of small & big architectural changes that may break games not compiled against it specifically. That's why in PS4 mode Pro "disables" the Polaris10 features. Still, Sony could at least leave the Jaguar at higher clock, unless there are also some changes of which I'm not aware of?
 
Oh, I definitely agree that requiring utilisation of high-level API will impose performance penalty and that's particularly bad for current consoles, but - in the end - you can't eat the cake and still have it: you can't have easy scalability of software running on iterative consoles, without that abstraction. Unless you want to put the burden on the devs, to update & re-compile each game when new hardware appears, but then the devs & publishers won't be happy and most certainly gamers won't be happy - hence threads like this one.
Then perhaps Sony should allow certain games (GNMX ones) to get a free performance boost. GNM games will need to be patched.

The case with X1S is different I think, because it's exactly the same hardware, just clocked higher. For PS4Pro the GPU - in addition to having 2x the CUs and higher clock - is fundamentally a jump from 2nd gen GCN (Sea Islands) to 4th gen (Arctic Islands) which I'm sure adds a lot of small & big architectural changes that may break games not compiled against it specifically. That's why in PS4 mode Pro "disables" the Polaris10 features. Still, Sony could at least leave the Jaguar at higher clock, unless there are also some changes of which I'm not aware of?
I understand disabling half the CUs and downclocking, but how do they explicitly disable Polaris-specific features?

Polaris CUs have a higher efficiency due to microarchitectural improvements, even if we're talking about 18 CUs clocked @ 800 MHz...

Believe it or not, there are games that are optimized for OG PS4/GCN 1.1 down to the register level:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=128400914&postcount=206
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=128408021&postcount=220
 

antyk

Member
Then perhaps Sony should allow certain games (GNMX ones) to get a free performance boost. GNM games will need to be patched.

Maybe it's not that simple, e.g. devs could use a mixture of APIs depending on criticality (performance requirement) of given code? The same like e.g. Noughty Dog devs were using assembly for parts of their codebase, but elsewhere were just calling the standard libraries?

I understand disabling half the CUs and downclocking, but how do they explicitly disable Polaris-specific features?

Polaris CUs have a higher efficiency due to microarchitectural improvements, even if we're talking about 18 CUs clocked @ 800 MHz...

I'd imagine that designing a GPU - like most things in life, really - is largely based on extending / refining existing architecture, so on ADDING stuff to what's already there. Because PS4Pro APU is still a custom-made chip, Sony simply could order AMD to provide with means to disable those additions? I imagine that devs "talk" to the GPU via some sort of bus or scheduler where jobs are fed and distributed to the CUs, so maybe it was enough that this 'scheduler' knows it needs to operate in legacy mode and behaves accordingly? Just guessing here :)
 

synce

Member
I would imagine most games are bottlenecked by the CPU and not the GPU, so they wouldn't get nearly as big a boost as Batman. Didn't watch teh entire video but I'd be surprised if Digital Foundry didn't at least mention this
 

Synth

Member
I would imagine most games are bottlenecked by the CPU and not the GPU, so they wouldn't get nearly as big a boost as Batman. Didn't watch teh entire video but I'd be surprised if Digital Foundry didn't at least mention this

They did mention it, and I'd agree that for this reason you would be unlikely to see games going from say 30fps to 60fps... but at the same time, I'd argue that the differences in XB1 versions of games should illustrate how little many games have to spare GPU-wise also, so the CPU probably wouldn't prevent many of them hitting a more consistent framerate target.
 

andshrew

Member
Yeah, exactly: we can only speculate. That's fine and all, but some people seem to have decided "my speculation must be the actual case!" without any evidence.

So both games in the collection are indeed Pro enabled. You can determine this from the JSON file the PS4 accesses whenever you install or update a game which has the property neoEnable set to 1. Both games have been explicitly developed to take advantage of the Pro hardware.

Arkham Asylum
http://tmdb.np.dl.playstation.net/tmdb2/CUSA04607_00_1ADD4D76A39BE2E4B4CBB6456E3C49B7512FC6A8/CUSA04607_00.json said:
{"revision":4,"formatVersion":4,"npTitleId":"CUSA04607_00","console":"PS4","names":[{"name":"Batman: Return to Arkham - Arkham Asylum"}],"icons":[{"icon":"http://gs2-sec.ww.prod.dl.playstation.net/gs2-sec/appkgo/prod/CUSA04607_00/4/i_555335ebeb4ed25440819fc616462cfb1384ba190cca84dca1f2a8095c669a25/i/icon0.png","type":"512x512"}],"parentalLevel":7,"pronunciation":"http://gs2-sec.ww.prod.dl.playstation.net/gs2-sec/appkgo/prod/CUSA04607_00/4/i_555335ebeb4ed25440819fc616462cfb1384ba190cca84dca1f2a8095c669a25/i/pronunciation.xml","contentId":"EP1018-CUSA04607_00-ARKHAMASYLUMHD00","backgroundImage":"http://gs2-sec.ww.prod.dl.playstation.net/gs2-sec/appkgo/prod/CUSA04607_00/4/i_555335ebeb4ed25440819fc616462cfb1384ba190cca84dca1f2a8095c669a25/i/pic0.png","category":"gd","psVr":0,"neoEnable":1}

Arkham City
http://tmdb.np.dl.playstation.net/tmdb2/CUSA02000_00_1C7DAD5E2602DEB6ADC3279419C812DA8D34260C/CUSA02000_00.json said:
{"revision":4,"formatVersion":4,"npTitleId":"CUSA02000_00","console":"PS4","names":[{"name":"Batman: Return to Arkham - Arkham City"}],"icons":[{"icon":"http://gs2-sec.ww.prod.dl.playstation.net/gs2-sec/appkgo/prod/CUSA02000_00/4/i_036fb6565f613ed42c4401927673a57293728b782d334cee66cf848f0118e204/i/icon0.png","type":"512x512"}],"parentalLevel":7,"pronunciation":"http://gs2-sec.ww.prod.dl.playstation.net/gs2-sec/appkgo/prod/CUSA02000_00/4/i_036fb6565f613ed42c4401927673a57293728b782d334cee66cf848f0118e204/i/pronunciation.xml","contentId":"EP1018-CUSA02000_00-ARKHAMCITYHD0000","backgroundImage":"http://gs2-sec.ww.prod.dl.playstation.net/gs2-sec/appkgo/prod/CUSA02000_00/4/i_036fb6565f613ed42c4401927673a57293728b782d334cee66cf848f0118e204/i/pic0.png","category":"gd","psVr":0,"neoEnable":1}
 

EmiPrime

Member
So both games in the collection are indeed Pro enabled. You can determine this from the JSON file the PS4 accesses whenever you install or update a game which has the property neoEnable set to 1. Both games have been explicitly developed to take advantage of the Pro hardware.

Great find! What a weird collection.
 

Izuna

Banned
So both games in the collection are indeed Pro enabled. You can determine this from the JSON file the PS4 accesses whenever you install or update a game which has the property neoEnable set to 1. Both games have been explicitly developed to take advantage of the Pro hardware.

Arkham Asylum


Arkham City

Thank you for your awesome work ;)

I hope we find out one day if that's all that needs to change for a game to work with the better hardware. It'll be too long before we get CFW or the like on PS4 (Pro) though.
 

bryanee

Member
This - I need details ! I've been waiting on a reason to pick this up and a Pro patch is exactly that.

In the other Return to Arkham thread some one spoke of the update. I believe he/she said its much smoother in AC now. I'd link the thread but I cant find it now.
 
So has anyone tried the new patch?

Don't know what the difference are but here is some screens I took from Asylum.

1080p using capture card:

amarectv2016-12-1001-g7swd.png

4k using ps4 pro screenshot funtion:

 
I started ng+ after the update installed and the opening with close-up Strange and Bruce struggling in the chair is much better. Definitely not as choppy.
 

Lt-47

Member
I'd love to know if they really improved the framerate but there's so few people who own the game around here. Not a lot of feedback...
 

witness

Member
I'd love to know if they really improved the framerate but there's so few people who own the game around here. Not a lot of feedback...

I can tell you as standard PS4 plebe, the frame rate is substantially improved and smooth with both games. They are as I remembered them now. Wife is making me wait until Christmas for the Pro 😞
 

SURGEdude

Member
And to think I was actually annoyed the PC wouldn't get this with, especially because of the upgraded textures. Instead it destroyed the artstyle and runs like shit on top of it.
 
But it's still a patch/version of the game that allow the base game to access more power, which means there is some QA that went into double-checking that the game could run without breaking things.

How do you know this?

Not getting a passive improvement on old PS4 games with the Pro is a substantial hit to any perceived value the console could have.

It should be as easy as adding a toggle with a user warning and calling it a day.

As an extreme example Darksouls 1 on PC was modded(based Durante) for higher resolution(no issue) and higher framerate(minor issues), but a lot of people choose the higher fidelity over some minor bugs.

I really hope Scorpio offers unpatched improvements on old games.

And to think I was actually annoyed the PC wouldn't get this with, especially because of the upgraded textures. Instead it destroyed the artstyle and runs like shit on top of it.

No Origins is a deal breaker as well.
 

kjacobson

Neo Member
So both games in the collection are indeed Pro enabled. You can determine this from the JSON file the PS4 accesses whenever you install or update a game which has the property neoEnable set to 1. Both games have been explicitly developed to take advantage of the Pro hardware.

Arkham Asylum


Arkham City

Is there a location where someone has analyzed the JSON files and possibly found other hidden games with PS4 Pro support or at least cataloged them?
 
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