Support NeoGAF

[onQ123]

It's good to see 4K/60fps games appear on the PS4 Pro.
I'm losing braincells reading onQ123's comments.

There is an ignore list use it

 

[Beerman462]

I said nothing about the secret sauce



1080's are not made to run FP16 operations so if a game is made around FP16 a 480 will run it better.

 

[onQ123]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10325/the-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-and-1070-founders-edition-review/5

GeForce GTX 1080, on the other hand, is not faster at FP16. In fact it’s downright slow. For their consumer cards, NVIDIA has severely limited FP16 CUDA performance. GTX 1080’s FP16 instruction rate is 1/128th its FP32 instruction rate, or after you factor in vec2 packing, the resulting theoretical performance (in FLOPs) is 1/64th the FP32 rate, or about 138 GFLOPs.

 

[Clear]

Doesn't it by definition become less impressive the more simple the graphics become?

And there's the reason why most console games target 30fps in a nutshell.

 

[Beerman462]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10325/the-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-and-1070-founders-edition-review/5

I was just looking at that review. Interesting, but I don't think it will be an issue on the consumer side. They seem to have done it to separate their Tesla cards and consumer cards more.

 

[Snafu]

I guess you missed the part about PS4 Pro GPU using features beyond Polaris? and you also missed this


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-mantis-burn-racing-on-ps4-pro

1080's are not made to run FP16 operations so if a game is made around FP16 a 480 will run it better.

So first you say Ps4 Pro has features beyond Polaris(no 2:1 16-bit performance) and then you say the 480 could outperform a 1080 because of the 16-bit support?
What Eurogamer says is pure speculation.

And even if the Ps4 pro had 2:1 FP16 support. You can's just make everything 16 bit. We use 32 bit floats for a reason. FP16 is mostly used on mobile only. People would return their PS4 Pro after seeing result of 16 bit G-Buffers.

 

[onQ123]

I was just looking at that review. Interesting, but I don't think it will be an issue on the consumer side. They seem to have done it to separate their Tesla cards and consumer cards more.

But you felt so confident jumping in to troll earlier

So first you say Ps4 Pro has features beyond Polaris(no 2:1 16-bit performance) and then you say the 480 could outperform a 1080 because of the 16-bit support?
What Eurogamer says is pure speculation.

And even if the Ps4 pro had 2:1 FP16 support. You can's just make everything 16 bit. We use 32 bit floats for a reason. FP16 is mostly used on mobile only. People would return their PS4 Pro after seeing result of 16 bit G-Buffers.

Look up!

 

[Dezeer]

It is nice to see that developers really can hit UHD 60 fps with PS 4 Pro, even if it is simpler isometric racing game.

So first you say Ps4 Pro has features beyond Polaris(no 2:1 16-bit performance) and then you say the 480 could outperform a 1080 because of the 16-bit support?

Polaris has a rate of 1:1 in FP32 to FP16 GFLOP where as consumer Pascal has a rate of 64:1, so if a graphics program would be using half precision heavily, it would run better on AMD hardware. But no-one is going to be using FP16 heavily when the other graphics manufacturer doesn't really support it.

 

[Beerman462]

But you felt so confident jumping in to troll earlier

No regrets. It's pretty unbelievable that FP16 would be that nerfed on Nvidia cards. At least I came back and admitted I was wrong on that one point. I don't see FP16 being used to that extent so I'm really not concerned.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I played this game at EGX and, man, it really was a ton of fun. It only ended up on my radar due to 4K60 but the game is fantastic.

I know at least one long-time ex-Rare guy is working on it.

Is it like a re-imagining of Iron man off road racing? I loved that game as a kid.

This looks cool.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

And there's the reason why most console games target 30fps in a nutshell.

The fact that framerate and visual complexity cannot be maximized simultaneously is the reason devs always choose the latter? I don't follow.

 

[Beerman462]

Is it like a re-imagining of Iron man off road racing? I loved that game as a kid.

This looks cool.

This is what I thought of. I used to play the arcade version.

 

[reptilescorpio]

PS4 Pro owners connected to 1080p displays get a super-sampled version of the 4K output, downscaled to full HD.

This interests me greatly

 

[dragonelite]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10325/the-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-and-1070-founders-edition-review/5

Different problem spaces I'm not familiar with deep learning yet and it might be that fp16 is precise enough for it. And they don't need fp32 for the precision. But what works for deep learning does not work for computer graphics. Where precision does matter.

 

[QuantumSquid]

I'm glad that consoles are pushing to get these resolutions into the mainstream. The sooner I can get a 4K 60fps graphics card for $600 or less, the better.

 

[Beerman462]

I'm glad that consoles are pushing to get these resolutions into the mainstream. The sooner I can get a 4K 60fps graphics card for $600 or less, the better.

I'm curious to see how this goes. I've been on 1080p for awhile. I was worried about going to a 1440p and being able to hold 60fps on my 1070 a year or two down the road. Probably will get a 1440 monitor next. Hopefully with GSync

 

[DangerMouse]

This is where I disagree highly: The secret sauce marketing thing. That kind of enhancement are usually marginal improvements. There's no secret sauce or whatever you call it. You have this physical hardware, performing more or less the same you'd expect it to do, depending on some enhancement.

We'll see how far they are able to push it but it's not marketing "secret sauce," we know and have seen multiple news stories that Cerny and his team have heavily customized the GPU beyond its base architecture. He's even said that they haven't covered all of the new additions so far beyond the checkboard uprendering customization they highlighted for 4K on more sophisticated titles. This card is clearly going to punch above its weight.

Those Digital Foundry comment sections are really something.

Simple looking indie titles running at native 4K is a reasonable expectation. If I was on consoles only, I'd be excited for other indie titles potentially being native 4K.

Makes me wonder if previously released indie titles will get a Pro patch.

Yeah. That Abzu screenshot for example, something like that game would probably look fantastic remastered to 4K. Supposedly the Trine games can do it too since back at launch the dev said they could have done it if Sony were to enable 4K output on the OG PS4. Probably because the game was originally built for 3D.

Hopefully a good number of indies can do it. It was cool seeing The Witness is going to get a patch.

 

[onQ123]

Different problem spaces I'm not familiar with deep learning yet and it might be that fp16 is precise enough for it. And they don't need fp32 for the precision. But what works for deep learning does not work for computer graphics. Where precision does matter.

Well MS , AMD , Sony & Intel think it will work for graphics

 

[QuantumSquid]

I'm curious to see how this goes. I've been on 1080p for awhile. I was worried about going to a 1440p and being able to hold 60fps on my 1070 a year or two down the road. Probably will get a 1440 monitor next. Hopefully with GSync

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me here but I personally view 1440p as a sort of "transition resolution" between 1080p and 4K, much like 720p was a transition resolution between standard def and 1080.

I'll upgrade to 4K when 1080p becomes outdated, and 4K-ready GPUs aren't expensive as hell.

 

[Beerman462]

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me here but I personally view 1440p as a sort of "transition resolution" between 1080p and 4K, much like 720p was a transition resolution between standard def and 1080.

I'll upgrade to 4K when 1080p becomes outdated, and 4K-ready GPUs aren't expensive as hell.

In the TV space I guess, but for my set up 1440p is fine. I'm still happy with 1080p and down sampling when I can.

 

[mxgt]

This is the kind of game I'd expect the pro to do at 4k60, it's not exactly a looker.

Game looks fun.

 

[Theonik]

Even a game this simple can't get locked 60fps at 4k lmao. I can't see any big game even getting 4k locked at 30.

'locking' a game at 60fps requires running the game at 16ms minimum for each frame, which mean that the game needs to be running way above that for the most part otherwise you'd get dips.

It's actually quite hard to do and very inefficient. You can 'lock' games at 60 on PC mostly because you have to luxury of just throwing more power at the problem and indeed often wasting performance.

 

[Rodelero]

Different problem spaces I'm not familiar with deep learning yet and it might be that fp16 is precise enough for it. And they don't need fp32 for the precision. But what works for deep learning does not work for computer graphics. Where precision does matter.

No guess work is necessary, and you are incorrect. Precision does matter, but a lot of calculations can be performed at lower precision than fp32. It's worth noting that low-precision floats aren't some new thing, they are used widely when doing graphics programming for mobile devices. There, typically, there is support not only for fp32, and fp16, but fp8 too. There are some areas where high precision is absolutely necessary, and some where it is beneficial, but there are also a lot of areas where high precision simply isn't necessary.

If you want an obvious example of why high precision isn't necessary across the board, consider that the actual output of the graphics pipeline isn't that precise. We have, for the longest time, used 32-bit colour for output, which is 8 bits per channel. That doesn't mean you can use low precision throughout, absolutely not, but in my experience it's rare you can't take advantage of lower precision somewhere. (For what it's worth, HDR boosts us beyond 8 bits per channel, but still not beyond the middle precision of 16 bit).

 

[Hip Hop]

4k and 60fps is pretty fucking impressive, regardless of how "simple" you label the game.

when the graphics are this basic, there's nothing impressive about it. Quite sad that it can't hold 60FPS actually.

 

[Inuhanyou]

when the graphics are this basic, there's nothing impressive about it. Quite sad that it can't hold 60FPS actually.

Consoles don't generally hold 60 even when aiming for that FPS in general, let alone pushing this kind of pixel count.

 

[thelastword]

Even a game this simple can't get locked 60fps at 4k lmao. I can't see any big game even getting 4k locked at 30.

A few dips below 60fps and from what I saw in that video it's 60fps 99% of the time and you want to mock this.

Did you miss the part where the devs said they had to optimize to get the game to hit 60fps at 4k? You have a small development studio that is giving us a a nicely detailed top world racer with some good effects and spiffy physics and you deem it a laughing matter because to you the graphics are simple? A dev good enough to give us 4 1080p screens at 30fps each?

In the era of games when you have awful releases like Broforce and Tetris on the PS4. You have AAA releasese like Witcher 3, Fallout 4, Just Cause, Unity and their issues. You have efforts where 9 year old games that don't run at a locked 60fps at 1080p on these consoles, with framerates exceedingly worse than the few dropped frames you see here. A gen where you have remasters like Payday, Darksiders, Sleeping Dogs, Prototype that are all abysmal work which can't even keep a locked 30 with awful dips, some having no AA and AF. You have the Bioshock collection that falls into the 30's, then the deadrising collection which has it's own set of problems and you believe this dev deserve your chagrin and not the devs from the titles mentioned above?

I mentioned Broforce and Tetris to show that even if the game is indie it doesn mean it's a walk in the park to do 4k 60fps. I've seen so many indie games that look way worse with more performance problems than what we see here at only 1080p resolution at that. So if a few dips is that bad to you at 4k, then I hope you don't play COD or Battlefield or battlefront or Witcher or all these AAA titles coming down the pipeline this holiday.

The crazy thing about all of this is that the conversation has changed so much..You visit the "Can the Pro do 4k native games" and you had so many people saying outright "NO". Then when people heard that Elder Scrolls, TLOUR etc are native, people are now saying "TLOU is only a PS3 game etc...".....It's really bad form because I've seen this trend with every game that has had good performance, good presets and good resolutions. Can you believe the excuses people make for MGSV's performance and good presets or Arkham Asylum's great graphics and no loadtimes. I think it's hightime we praise developers that do good work regardless of platform or budget and make less excuses for those who don't stack as well.

Despite a title being indie or AAA, you can see when effort and optimization work goes into a title. For those who believe these games will be the only 4k titles on the PRO, then I think they are in for a rude awakening.

 

[spazchicken]

The guy talking can't pronounce the "R" sound or am I hearing things?

 

[kyser73]

The guy talking can't pronounce the "R" sound or am I hearing things?

Yeah, Rich has rhotacism.

OT - in 4K those little cars actually look like little toys - I actually wanted to reach in and pick one up. While it's simple, the physics look like a ton of fun to muck around with, and hey, its 4k60 on a $399 box.

Although its good to see the goalpost shifting relating to 'Well, it's an indie/PS3 remaster' in response to the whole 'Pro can't do native 4K' nonsense.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Yeah, Rich has rhotacism.

OT - in 4K those little cars actually look like little toys - I actually wanted to reach in and pick one up. While it's simple, the physics look like a ton of fun to muck around with, and hey, its 4k60 on a $399 box.

Although its good to see the goalpost shifting relating to 'Well, it's an indie/PS3 remaster' in response to the whole 'Pro can't do native 4K' nonsense.

Well, atleast we know what the Pro's graphical limitations are when pushed to the maximum pixel count. PS3 level graphics at 4K 30, and lesser indies at 4K 60.

I wonder if a game like KZ3 could run on Pro at 4K 30....i bet most PS2 games would not have any issues, would like to see those KH remasters on Pro as well

 

[onQ123]

Well, atleast we know what the Pro's graphical limitations are when pushed to the maximum pixel count. PS3 level graphics at 4K 30, and lesser indies at 4K 60.

I wonder if a game like KZ3 could run on Pro at 4K 30....i bet most PS2 games would not have any issues, would like to see those KH remasters on Pro as well

This is not the limitations this is the beginning & if a bigger dev team is willing to take the time & effort to optimize for FP16 you can see even better looking games at native 4K but that's up to the devs & checkerboard rendering will probably be the best choice for bigger games.

 

[Kibbles]

Jeez that video is making me sick, weird style of gameplay

 

[kyser73]

Jeez that video is making me sick, weird style of gameplay

Have you never seen an isometric racing game before? Never played Micromachines or anything similar?

 

[KageMaru]

Looks like a great use of the system. Also liking the local multiplayer options.

 

[DangerMouse]

The fact that framerate and visual complexity cannot be maximized simultaneously is the reason devs always choose the latter? I don't follow.

Yes indeed.

Insomniac summed it up well.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/how-much-does-framerate-matter/

 

[thuway]

When is the Cerny talk?

 

[kyser73]

The fact that framerate and visual complexity cannot be maximized simultaneously is the reason devs always choose the latter? I don't follow.

It's a veiled criticism of your comment, referring to the preferences of many/most console owners wanting eye-candy over performance.

 

[Gator86]

I hope games like Battlefield 1 actually go for the Paragon route of recognizing a 1080p and having more effects alongside better IQ, rather than strictly downscaling the 4K mode. Cool that there's true 4K in the pipeline already for some games.

Same. It seems like a waste to bother with 4k stuff right now. No one has a 4k TV and most games will be too demanding to run it at an acceptable level. Just make great 1080p games.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Same. It seems like a waste to bother with 4k stuff right now. No one has a 4k TV and most games will be too demanding to run it at an acceptable level. Just make great 1080p games.

That's not what checkerboard rendering does, and its not just for 4K televisions, it just renders at a much higher pixel count that will display much clearer on 4K televisions AND 1080p TV's than PS4. That is far easier for devs to do than adding in better assets for 1080p. It would be like focusing on another SKU entirely alongside PS4 and XB1 with that level of investment. Especially games like BF1 which are 900p.

Regardless, i don't think most devs will have more than 1 Pro mode for games they are concurrently working on with other SKU's.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

the new ps has got pc fans riled up. it's fun to watch

LOL at that digital foundry's comment section. Such a shit-fest cesspool of sodium, racism, hatred and stupidity.

Sometimes I think youtube's implementation of moderators might not be such a bad thing.

 

[kyser73]

That's not what checkerboard rendering does, and its not just for 4K televisions, it just renders at a much higher pixel count that will display much clearer on 4K televisions AND 1080p TV's than PS4. That is far easier for devs to do than adding in better assets for 1080p. It would be like focusing on another SKU entirely alongside PS4 and XB1 with that level of investment. Especially games like BF1 which are 900p.

Regardless, i don't think most devs will have more than 1 Pro mode for games they are concurrently working on with other SKU's.

Slightly OT but doesn't it work with the Pro detecting the TV output resolution & adjusting accordingly?

I.e. Pro is rendering at e.g. 1800p. Plug Pro into 4K TV & checkerboard rendering is then used; plug into 1080p then at minimum the Pro down samples from the 1800p render to 1080p output, hence the 'ease' of improved IQ on a 1080p display.

So rather than checkerboard & SSAA from checkerboarded 4K, it's SSAA from 1800p.

(The reason I've used 1800p is that was the target resolution mentioned in the Pro dev slides that were leaked.)

 

[freefornow]

When is the Cerny talk?

Well, if it's "behind closed doors" you'll probably be there and will be able to tell us all the "inside" stuff. Amirite?

 

[Inuhanyou]

Slightly OT but doesn't it work with the Pro detecting the TV output resolution & adjusting accordingly?

I.e. Pro is rendering at e.g. 1800p. Plug Pro into 4K TV & checkerboard rendering is then used; plug into 1080p then at minimum the Pro down samples from the 1800p render to 1080p output, hence the 'ease' of improved IQ on a 1080p display.

So rather than checkerboard & SSAA from checkerboarded 4K, it's SSAA from 1800p.

(The reason I've used 1800p is that was the target resolution mentioned in the Pro dev slides that were leaked.)

I don't think 1800p is particularly special in implementation, its just an example of a res devs had gotten working before that time period.

As for checkerboard rendering, its not scaling, its filling in the pixels from other indispersed frames. So they are still taking the exact same final image used for the 4K checkerboarded frame and downsampling it to 1080p, like Horizon is going to do.

The "detecting what TV you have" is only based on if you have two different pro modes entirely, if devs want, it can just automatically chose a mode based on what TV you have.

 

[valkillmore]

If soundtrack is good I'm in!

Spotify, dude. A games soundtrack hasn't been a deal-breaker for me for years.

 

[visiblemode]

I love games like this and this one looks great. I wanna pick it up.

 

[thuway]

Well, if it's "behind closed doors" you'll probably be there and will be able to tell us all the "inside" stuff. Amirite?

Alright guys I'll leave this thread.

 

[Afrikan]

Is it like a re-imagining of Iron man off road racing? I loved that game as a kid.

This looks cool.

what the fuck is Iron man off road racing?

fake edit- you mean to tell me I've been calling this just Super Offroad racing all these years?


not the same style, but one of my favorite SNES games was Super Offroad Baja Racing.... Graphics were sick for it's time. Felt like 3D...lol..but wasn't obviously.

 

[0racle]

as someone with a 1080P TV who is getting new

what is super sampling? how much of an improvement will I notice in comparison to my PS4? I am playing on a 108" projector

 

[Inuhanyou]

as someone with a 1080P TV who is getting new

what is super sampling? how much of an improvement will I notice in comparison to my PS4? I am playing on a 108" projector

Super sampling basically is having a higher internal resolution than your display smushed onto your display.

For example imagine a 720p TV playing 1080p native game on PS4. The image quality and visual clarity of the game will be much higher on the 720p TV than a native 720p game onthat TV would be, cause the internal pixel count of the rendered image is much higher.

Its the opposite of what happened last gen and in current gen, where you had 720p games upscaling to 1080p TV's or 1080p games upscaling to 4K TV's, which would leave the image stretched and prone to artifacts and more easily seen jaggies.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I love Motorstorm RC. This looks great, though I'm realistically a couple years out from buying a 4K set.

 

[BONKERS]

I don't know what Richard is talking about. Downsampling to 1080p from 4k with the in game AA in the PC version clearly is a significant improvement in aliasing and image quality.

Even without AA, i'm sure the PS4P version outputting at 1080p will still look almost as good. (Hopefully they aren't running the DoF at fixed resolution, the flickering is fixed when downsampling)

At 1080p with just in the game AA, there's still quite a bit of aliasing on everything, and the dof flickers quite a bit

1080p/4k shots (This runs at >60FPS for me on a 980 even in early access. Pretty darn good)
*excuse the name blurring, don't know why I did that.*

Whatever they've got going for AA here (Based on how it looks, I want to say SMAAT2x, doesn't look like MSAA unless they are doing some kind of separate transparency pass), does an admirable job and the DOF blurs out the rest. But 4xSSAA on top of that is a big improvement. More so in motion.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/186564

while the rich pixel density and post-processing means that it isn't really required at all at 4K.

Thanks for the good laugh Richard. I'll let you know when my eyesight gets worse so I don't notice aliasing any more.

Super sampling basically is having a higher internal resolution than your display smushed onto your display.

For example imagine a 720p TV playing 1080p native game on PS4. The image quality and visual clarity of the game will be much higher on the 720p TV than a native 720p game onthat TV would be, cause the internal pixel count of the rendered image is much higher.

Its the opposite of what happened last gen and in current gen, where you had 720p games upscaling to 1080p TV's or 1080p games upscaling to 4K TV's, which would leave the image stretched and prone to artifacts and more easily seen jaggies.

This is a good layman explanation. To your point about 720p games from last gen upscaling to 1080p, here's DOA5 on PS3 vs PC at 1080p with the in game SSAA(Which has some rough edges still)screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/119261/picture:2

I'd like to add.
Super Sampling, at least the way it's done here is the bog standard brute force SSAA method.

It usually isn't good enough on it's own to tackle a lot of aliasing and needs to be combined with another AA method and a decent resolve.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/186550 (This compares 4xSSAA vs 4xSSAA+SMAA)

Here's some more comparisons of just OGSSAA, it's a big improvement but on it's own it still has some issues.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=35084
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=183796
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=72364
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=72376
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=149537(Edges still aliased, however this benefits a lot more from also running post processing at a higher resolution as well. Which doesn't seem to be the case here.)

Additional SSAA comparisons
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=105669
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=153840
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/180847/picture:0
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=103581
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=102050
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=176347
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=18723
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=151632
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=152474
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=135069
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=138039
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=119259
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=119261
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=76567

It's hard to show the Real difference maker, which is temporal stability. Which can only be shown in motion. SSAA, even basic will improve image quality in motion a lot!

Video example of SGSSAA in FFXIV.(4xOGSSAA+FXAA will look similar)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/8o36djz5fe7yj55/FFXIV_AA.7z

Another of Dead Island(Super compressed Youtube video however)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzndRrMiuNA

Because of this difference in motion, image quality will look better at 1080p with really good Anti Aliasing than native 4k with mediocre Anti Aliasing (In Mantis Burns Racing, 4k output on PS4P so far is without AA at all. But MBR also has the benefit that they have a really strong heavy DOF effect blurring out a big portion of the aliasing.)
But the PS4P with most games will be doing up-rendering from lower resolutions using CBR to fill in the gaps to create a psuedo 4k image, which will come with additional artifacts all of it's own.