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[spwolf]

90hz headsets will be running at 90fps, though. There will be no cheating, running content at 45fps and then doing any sort of reprojecting to 90fps.


Yes, it will look a fair bit lower than 720p, in fact.

are you trying to say 90hz is going to be better since it gives less options to devs? thats funny.


As to the OP article, about transversal - Sony has great tool for that:

now problem with all of this is how to make it work at low price... whatever they do, it has to be the default choice, so if they give 2 move controllers and navigation controller as default choice, it will all cost too much... but maybe navigation + one move?

 

[Man]

The Move needs a redesign. I slapped my forehead when the final design was revealed five years ago as it was obvious even back than that the 'main' wand should have come equipped with an analog stick.

 

[JAYSIMPLE]

Well I'm sorry but vr is obviously going to fail then. Maybe in a few years it will have a chance but first impressions are important. There's no way ps4 owners will accept anything below 1080p. We have seen evidence on this very forum. I'm still deffo going to give it a go and I'm glad I'll be able to look past such things.

 

[Seanspeed]

are you trying to say 90hz is going to be better since it gives less options to devs? thats funny.

No, that's not what I'm saying.... :/

But 90fps should probably be better than 60fps reprojected, though. Less reliance on timewarp and so reduced latency. Shouldn't be any ghosting/artifacts issue, which gofreak was saying would be inherent to 90hz headsets as well.

 

[Danlord]

Its not about the number of pixels(in the way you're thinking). People seem to have this like 'locked' idea of what 720p or 1080p means, only thinking of it in terms of their living room TV or whatever.

VR has the resolution spread ALL around your vision. Its a huge FoV. So each pixel is much, much larger in your vision than it is looking at your TV from your couch.

1080p in VR with a 100degree FoV will be more like 480p or so in terms of an equivalent living room TV resolution. Maybe even slightly less.

Right yeah I get what you mean.

 

[Sidewinder]

In regards to No Man's Sky and Morpheus, I just want to re-quote myself from a previous thread rather;



Like I say, I think it's almost guaranteed and as many people mention it's a great fit for VR. I personally see Sony using No Man's Sky as one of the titles that they show VR off to the mainstream public when it's out, it seems like one of the best fit. Things can change of course, but No Man's Sky was 60fps when they were showing it off as the HD gamersyde videos demonstrate here (although they could be using frame interpolation but VR requires a minimum of 60 and it just adds up)

I could see Sony buying them up, if they're for sale that is. Would be a wise and I guess comparatively cheap investment for Morpheus and PS4 as a whole.

 

[Seanspeed]

Well I'm sorry but vr is obviously going to fail then. Maybe in a few years it will have a chance but first impressions are important. There's no way ps4 owners will accept anything below 1080p. We have seen evidence on this very forum. I'm still deffo going to give it a go and I'm glad I'll be able to look past such things.

I think we'll quickly see that much of the resolution hubbub was more 'my dad can beat up your dad' than any *real* care about pristine image quality. Bringing graphics to life is way more powerful than a small little bump in clarity.

 

[Sidewinder]

The Move needs a redesign. I slapped my forehead when the final design was revealed five years ago as it was obvious even back than that the 'main' wand should have come equipped with an analog stick.

Lol me too, I harassed them on the Playstation blog after the reveal, begging them to just add a stick on the Move and be done with it, no Nav needed.

 

[gofreak]

No, that's not what I'm saying.... :/

But 90fps should probably be better than 60fps reprojected, though. Less reliance on timewarp and so reduced latency. Shouldn't be any ghosting/artifacts issue, which gofreak was saying would be inherent to 90hz headsets as well.

Indeed 90 reprojected to 90 is better than 60 reprojected to 120 in terms of IQ (however, it should be noted, it is not as good in terms of latency). However in the former case, where you are warping at the end of each frame to reduce latency, you are not free of these artifacts.

It's a question of at what point these artifacts are perceived to be objectionable.

If artifacts are a function of the age of your source frame, in the 90hz case your frames would be 11ms old. In the 60fps case 16ms old (in the 45fps case, 22ms). Artifacting will increase, all else equal, with source frame age, but it may not be objectionable, especially in light of the per-pixel quality tradeoff ,at 60fps as it might be from 45fps. In effect what I'm saying is that a 120hz panel may bring half-rate signals into play as a target framerate for VR, an option that slower panels don't offer. That's an interesting proposition, I think - if it is acceptable for your game, it means you could target 60fps instead of 90 on another panel. If it's not acceptable for your game, you then have to target 120 - instead of 90 on the other panel - which is more restrictive on your budget, but would yield and even smoother experience.

For Sony I think it's the right gamble because 60 is a better sweet spot for PS4 than 90 would be. For PC HMDs think it could be something to think about too - it could reduce the processing requirements for VR games on their devices on one end, while on the other letting hardcore users with high end PCs target a smoother experience at 120fps native. Rather than making everyone - high or low - target 90fps.

 

[Danlord]

I could see Sony buying them up, if they're for sale that is. Would be a wise and I guess comparatively cheap investment for Morpheus and PS4 as a whole.

Me too, I enjoyed Joe Danger on PS3 and I am incredibly hyped for No Man's Sky so being first-party at Sony with more resources available to them I can imagine even better games. Surely if my conjecture is true that they are working with Morpheus and Sony would use this as one of the "killer apps" to advertise this to the masses then they could already be getting help from Sony to ensure its one of the smoothest titles for demonstrating VR.

 

[lukeskymac]

Well I'm sorry but vr is obviously going to fail then. Maybe in a few years it will have a chance but first impressions are important.

This is nothing like the 720p XB1 fiasco

There's no way ps4 owners will accept anything below 1080p. We have seen evidence on this very forum. I'm still deffo going to give it a go and I'm glad I'll be able to look past such things.

Oh, so that's what you're getting at. Stop trolling.

 

[googleplex]

The Move needs a redesign. I slapped my forehead when the final design was revealed five years ago as it was obvious even back than that the 'main' wand should have come equipped with an analog stick.

Or Sony just makes a cheap Analog ad-on.

But I'm no longer sure that the Move needs a analog for VR anymore. Slow 'Tank' controls seem to be the more comfortable for people while walking around in VR. Dutura and Unfinished Swan On PS3 allows for Movement using only one Move controller. And it works pretty well. TTP did a great Move analysis in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7rtL8Caqhg&t=06m15s

But Loco Motion in VR is a tough problem to solve. The Guys at Cloudhead games has a pretty neat control scheme that they say doesn't make people sick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SMTUsvq7iY

 

[lukeskymac]

Or Sony just makes a cheap Analog ad-on.

Ugh, that makes all the buttons on the main Move controller useless...

But I'm no longer sure that the Move needs a analog for VR anymore. Slow 'Tank' controls seem to be the more comfortable for people while walking around in VR.

For 1st person games, sure. But I'm not convinced you can't make good 3rd person games with VR, and I imagine neither is Sony based on this:

So I'd be disappointed if they don't rework Move to have a stick in it. It would be unnecesarily limiting. Though I suppose in the case presented by the slide, a regular DS4 would be more appropriate.

 

[-griffy-]

Well I'm sorry but vr is obviously going to fail then. Maybe in a few years it will have a chance but first impressions are important. There's no way ps4 owners will accept anything below 1080p. We have seen evidence on this very forum. I'm still deffo going to give it a go and I'm glad I'll be able to look past such things.

People have an entirely different set of expectations when they are putting a device on their head that provides a 3D image at 120fps and tracks their every movement. There is so much more going on as far as the visual experience than resolution alone.

 

[googleplex]

Ugh, that makes all the buttons on the main Move controller useless...



For 1st person games, sure. But I'm not convinced you can't make good 3rd person games with VR, and I imagine neither is Sony based on this:

So I'd be disappointed if they don't rework Move to have a stick in it. It would be unnecesarily limiting. Though I suppose in the case presented by the slide, a regular DS4 would be more appropriate.

That add-on uses the Navigation controller. It has buttons and direction pad. So you'll have buttons. Also the PS4 already has a 3D imput device for 3rd person games. The DS4

 

[Danlord]

Ugh, that makes all the buttons on the main Move controller useless...



For 1st person games, sure. But I'm not convinced you can't make good 3rd person games with VR, and I imagine neither is Sony based on this:

So I'd be disappointed if they don't rework Move to have a stick in it. It would be unnecesarily limiting. Though I suppose in the case presented by the slide, a regular DS4 would be more appropriate.

I keep thinking the types of games that would be nice to explore in a 3rd person VR.

God-type games like Godus, Black and White for example would be really nice.

Total-War would also be another, basically any combat RTS would be a nice fit because rather than be "limited" by the screen space and moving to the edges to navigate the world, you can actually "be" in the world looking around the areas quicker and using the Move controller as an action stick.

Dead Nation would be a nice game to explore in VR, or maybe something like a game of miniature creatures/people like Pikmin and you're the deity over them and such.

Mostly it seems RTS-style games that would be interesting to explore in 3rd-person VR but this is where Indie's come in and with a touch of creative brilliance with VR can/will do it wonders.

 

[Natureboy99]

I'm hoping I can use it to play any games, not just ones that support VR.
I want to play laying on my back.

Watch tv & movies too.

 

[onQ123]

Kinda surprised that Morpheus has received such rave reviews. But I can't help but think it will be a waste of time like Move.

How was Move a waste of time? Sports Champion 1 & 2 are the best motion controlled games on the market & as you can see Move is still being used for Project Morpheus & the DS4 is basically Move inside of a controller.

 

[lukeskymac]

That add-on uses the Navigation controller. It has buttons and direction pad. So you'll have buttons. Also the PS4 already has a 3D imput device for 3rd person games. The DS4

You'll have two shoulder buttons, a dpad and two face buttons from the Nav, yes, but the buttons from the main controller will be useless. It's two for the price of one. I guess they're using that setup because they want to reveal the new controllers at E3, along with pricing.

 

[googleplex]

You'll have two shoulder buttons, a dpad and two face buttons from the Nav, yes, but the buttons from the main controller will be useless. It's two for the price of one. I guess they're using that setup because they want to reveal the new controllers at E3, along with pricing.

That DualPlay shell is a 3D printed failed kickstarter. But the ideal is sound. Sony could easily produce a add-on for tge Move giving it analog and full use of its buttons. Remember the Move has a port at the bottom for just that. The point is to make somthing that compatible with the Millions of Move controllers people already have.

 

[mrklaw]

Yeah sorry, but screw Morpheus if their solution is going to have ghosting.

VR has enough image quality issues as it is, without Sony taking shortcuts that introduce new ones.

Impressions are positive, and many said that they didn't notice any major difference between 60Hz with re projection and 120Hz native demos, apart from some minor noise on hard edges. And Digital Foundry seem to think that is reasonable trade off to get better quality graphics.

I think we'll quickly see that much of the resolution hubbub was more 'my dad can beat up your dad' than any *real* care about pristine image quality. Bringing graphics to life is way more powerful than a small little bump in clarity.

As backed up by GDC demos I think. Both morpheus and Vive getting great impressions and many observers saying that resolution isn't so critical as long as they nail everything else (which they seem to be doing)

 

[lukeskymac]

That DualPlay shell is a 3D printed failed kickstarter. But the ideal is sound. Sony could easily produce a add-on for tge Move giving it analog and full use of its buttons. Remember the Move has a port at the bottom for just that. The point is to make somthing that compatible with the Millions of Move controllers people already have.

That makes sense, but I'd like them to make a brand-new one for the millions that don't have a Move like me as well =P

 

[mrklaw]

are you trying to say 90hz is going to be better since it gives less options to devs? thats funny.


As to the OP article, about transversal - Sony has great tool for that:

now problem with all of this is how to make it work at low price... whatever they do, it has to be the default choice, so if they give 2 move controllers and navigation controller as default choice, it will all cost too much... but maybe navigation + one move?

That was a mis-step by Sony IMO. Nav doesn't have the glowing ball for positional tracking, and I think the motion sensors are downgraded comoared to the main move unit. So it would make a poor VR controller. Ideally I'd have liked a stick on the main unit, but I think buttons will be ok for forward motion.

 

[dofry]

Yeah, it was ahead of its time," smiles Marks. "A bit. Maybe."

 

[googleplex]

That makes sense, but I'd like them to make a brand-new one for the millions that don't have a Move like me as well =P

Lol

I'd rather them leave a Move resign for Morpheus 2 and make it easier on my pocket.

 

[Seanspeed]

In effect what I'm saying is that a 120hz panel may bring half-rate signals into play as a target framerate for VR, an option that slower panels don't offer.

Well that didn't seem to be what you were saying at first at all. You replied to somebody about the ghosting issue and then tried to make it sound like it would be the same with 90hz headsets. You then went on about the other stuff, but I was mainly talking about how this probably wont be the case - 90hz headsets running at 90fps, and therefore not using any reprojection technique, should at least see minimal to no ghosting/artifacts by comparison. They wont be completely free from it, no, and it depends just on how solidly a game is running, but in ideal circumstances, timewarp wont even be necessary.

Basically, no, the problem isn't going to be inherent to both types of headsets. I think 60fps->120fps is certainly a cool option, but this has mainly come about because of the PS4's limitations, not because its some great solution. Its a compromise. And when the other option is a full 120fps, then it creates quite a gap and I expect that gap to be quite noticeable when we see what sorts of experiences we get running on either 60 or 120(in terms of graphics achievable). Honestly, I'm quite alright with the medium ground of 90fps. I do think we'll see 120hz PC headsets soon enough though, too. And I also hope it doesn't create a situation where devs feel the compulsion to push graphics rather than focus on better performance.

We'll see.

 

[3rdamention]

Lol me too, I harassed them on the Playstation blog after the reveal, begging them to just add a stick on the Move and be done with it, no Nav needed.

They could have put a stick right where the Move button is, and made it a clickable analog stick just like today's controllers... That click would replace the move button's functionality...

 

[Jomjom]

I really hope they eventually enable it for pc. It looks so much more comfortable and professionally made than the other two competitors but having it limited to the ps4 will hurt its adoption speed.

 

[LX_Theo]

I need Shadow of the Colossus in VR.

 

[Seanspeed]

I really hope they eventually enable it for pc. It looks so much more comfortable and professionally made than the other two competitors

Just prototypes man. I'm sure both the 'competitors' will come up with nicer final designs.

 

[Robcat]

Who is really going to stand there with a sharpshooter and a vr headset on? The idea is cool but this isn't going anywhere.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Just prototypes man. I'm sure both the 'competitors' will come up with nicer final designs.

You'd think they'd have ditched the dumb ski-goggles type construction by now. How is it comfortable in any way, shape or form to have the center of gravity of the entire device lie multiple inches in front of your face.

 

[onQ123]

They could have put a stick right where the Move button is, and made it a clickable analog stick just like today's controllers... That click would replace the move button's functionality...

 

[Jomjom]

Just prototypes man. I'm sure both the 'competitors' will come up with nicer final designs.

No point in speculation. All i can do is compare the current state and as far as comfort the consensus is that the Morpheus is way ahead right now.

 

[giant_frying_pan]

It'll be big if they PC enable it, which I think they might considering how friendly theyve been recently with DS4 on PC.

Yeah this is key for me. I'm interested in buying a VR headset but not Vive and Oculus AND Morpheus. If Sony lock it to PS4 only, that narrows down the choice for me.

 

[Callibretto]

No point in speculation. All i can do is compare the current state and as far as comfort the consensus is that the Morpheus is way ahead right now.

I'm actually surprised no one copy Morpheus setup of how to wear it since it's first reveal last year. even from last year, many people agree that Morpheus method to wear it is more comfortable than all the other vr headset.

 

[hodayathink]

Depending on how well time-warp/reprojection works, it looks like things could get even more interesting once we start getting displays with something like 180hz or 240hz displays, as we could get more "easy" divisors to target fps to.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Sad that devs still haven't figured out movement. That is going to be crucial...

 

[maquiladora]

It was a 3D controller in a 2D world - until now.

I imagining this as the voiceover from the trailer of a Pixar film about a Move controller.

 

[Loofy]

Im not convinced on Sony's support. Stuff like London Heist have the potential to be amazing.

Same with that Sorcery demo Sony showed with move..
http://youtu.be/llAI7lNd6OQ

So what was the final game like? literally an extended demo. Every move exclusive game Sony threw out had the same budget as some of those carnival shovelware games on Wii. If sony wants morpheus to succeed they don't have to throw AAA money at it, but at least give us one A games.

 

[gofreak]

Well that didn't seem to be what you were saying at first at all. You replied to somebody about the ghosting issue and then tried to make it sound like it would be the same with 90hz headsets.

What was said was that this was a shortcut Sony was taking - what I replied was that it's not a Morpheus specific technique, that time warping is used on all these sets. 60-120 is Morpheus specific for now, but that's not a bad option judging by impressions.

You then went on about the other stuff, but I was mainly talking about how this probably wont be the case - 90hz headsets running at 90fps, and therefore not using any reprojection technique, should at least see minimal to no ghosting/artifacts by comparison. They wont be completely free from it, no, and it depends just on how solidly a game is running, but in ideal circumstances, timewarp wont even be necessary.

My point was, though, that even at a native framerate (90, or even 120) you're probably going to be using time warping. It reduces latency further, and can help smooth out framerate dips into something more consistent from a latency POV. That's why these artifacts are still an issue at native framerates - less so at 90hz, but I think the question is if 60 is acceptable or not. In the 90 or 120hz case, a dev could turn off time warping but at the expense of latency.

60->120 is the lower limit in use today for reprojection, and it is for now exclusive to Morpheus, but,my original point was that this general technique is not new to VR. I've seen many people talking about it since GDC as if it is.

I think 60fps->120fps is certainly a cool option, but this has mainly come about because of the PS4's limitations, not because its some great solution.

I think when we see 120hz panels more widely available - which is inevitable - it's a technique that will be used beyond PS4, if it does a decent job. And if the OS/driver situation allows it. I think especially for PC where you would have the option to throw more power to get to a native 120 anyway. I think it would be less about the temptation to trade graphics against framerate as the temptation to broaden your target userbase by reducing processing requirements. Processing requirements are one of VR's biggest challenges to adoption, I think any option to lower the barrier to their content would be welcome by devs. Premium enthusiasts can spend more to avoid any compromises, and I'm sure they'd be eyeing 120hz and faster for their VR experiences as we go forward anyway.

 

[JAYSIMPLE]

People have an entirely different set of expectations when they are putting a device on their head that provides a 3D image at 120fps and tracks their every movement. There is so much more going on as far as the visual experience than resolution alone.

Also think how good the 3ds looks in 3d. I think it will look amazing when it's all around you. I don't notice the lower resolution on 3ds bar a few jaggies. It will look amazing I bet. Fingers crossed for no man's sky. If the price is right I'm so in

 

[three_muffins]

Sad that devs still haven't figured out movement. That is going to be crucial...

That is a major concern of mine as well. VR and image quality is one side, but if the controls are not immersive, the whole things feels a tad diminished.

 

[DavidDesu]

Well I'm sorry but vr is obviously going to fail then. Maybe in a few years it will have a chance but first impressions are important. There's no way ps4 owners will accept anything below 1080p. We have seen evidence on this very forum. I'm still deffo going to give it a go and I'm glad I'll be able to look past such things.

This isn't a flat display that just straps onto your face to play your current games on... it's virtual reality, as in truly virtual reality. Are people not getting this? It's a paradigm shift in immersion that makes everything that came before take a back seat, that makes just raw crazy graphical performance sort of meaningless. I think when you put people IN a Ferrari or on a mountain side or flying over a vast city scape, that truly has scale and surrounds your vision, no matter where you look, I'm sure that during that experience, something that is new and will blow people's minds, that very few will be pixel counting FFS.

Have you even read the article, the impressions, the way Digital Foundry describes the experiences they've had. This is not some shitty Virtual Boy thing, it's not a gimmick that people will simply tire of until the next big thing comes along. This IS the next big thing, in totality, and we can experience it very soon. First stage and of course it's at the lower end of capability but fundamentally at this point they have resolved many of the main limiting factors from past attempts at VR. This is VR that creates presence, true immersion in virtual worlds. It isn't just a gimmicky new display tech (which it seems many are adamant it apparently must be).

The lack of vision and the nitpicking over VR in the gaming community, or targeting Sony cos "PS4 is a puny console it'll never work HAHA" sort of nonsense is getting tiresome.

Edit: sorry this came over quite harsh on you, didn't mean it to. I just keep seeing the same comments over and over from some folks it seems predictable as night turns to day and there's a lot of folk (not you) who just love to ignore everything people are saying who've tried it and push the idea that it won't work and is rubbish (it does and it isn't!). I may be getting a little mad at folk unnecessarily

 

[JAYSIMPLE]

This isn't a flat display that just straps onto your face to play your current games on... it's virtual reality, as in truly virtual reality. Are people not getting this? It's a paradigm shift in immersion that makes everything that came before take a back seat, that makes just raw crazy graphical performance sort of meaningless. I think when you put people IN a Ferrari or on a mountain side or flying over a vast city scape, that truly has scale and surrounds your vision, no matter where you look, I'm sure that during that experience, something that is new and will blow people's minds, that very few will be pixel counting FFS.

Have you even read the article, the impressions, the way Digital Foundry describes the experiences they've had. This is not some shitty Virtual Boy thing, it's not a gimmick that people will simply tire of until the next big thing comes along. This IS the next big thing, in totality, and we can experience it very soon. First stage and of course it's at the lower end of capability but fundamentally at this point they have resolved many of the main limiting factors from past attempts at VR. This is VR that creates presence, true immersion in virtual worlds. It isn't just a gimmicky new display tech (which it seems many are adamant it apparently must be).

The lack of vision and the nitpicking over VR in the gaming community, or targeting Sony cos "PS4 is a puny console it'll never work HAHA" sort of nonsense is getting tiresome.

Edit: sorry this came over quite harsh on you, didn't mean it to. I just keep seeing the same comments over and over from some folks it seems predictable as night turns to day and there's a lot of folk (not you) who just love to ignore everything people are saying who've tried it and push the idea that it won't work and is rubbish (it does and it isn't!). I may be getting a little mad at folk unnecessarily

Man no worries dude. I hope it is the next big thing and people lovebird. They just need to make sure the experiences are there from day one. Something lasting. Not a flash in the pan

 

[Jomjom]

Im not convinced on Sony's support. Stuff like London Heist have the potential to be amazing.

Same with that Sorcery demo Sony showed with move..
http://youtu.be/llAI7lNd6OQ

So what was the final game like? literally an extended demo. Every move exclusive game Sony threw out had the same budget as some of those carnival shovelware games on Wii. If sony wants morpheus to succeed they don't have to throw AAA money at it, but at least give us one A games.

Yup I share these concerns. More reason for them to make it PC compatible because there will be no lack of support there.

Sony should be trying to get these in as many hands as possible right now by making it the choice that works on the most platforms. There's no way the Steam and Oculus will ever work with Playstation.

Then when all these people have it regardless of what they bought it for, PC or PS4, and the PS5 comes out, these can act as a reason people pick up the PS5 if VR does turn out to be successful.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Yup I share these concerns. More reason for them to make it PC compatible because there will be no lack of support there.

Sony should be trying to get these in as many hands as possible right now by making it the choice that works on the most platforms. Then when all these people have it regardless of what they bought it for, PC or PS4, and the PS5 comes out, these can act as a reason people pick up the PS5 if VR does turn out to be successful.

Why release it on the PC when there's already big competition from Oculus and Valve, and newer, bigger and better VR headsets will be coming out every few months most likely? It's a platform open to every manufacturer out there and unless Sony is interested in keeping the Morpheus hardware up to date every year at least, there's little to no point in even releasing on there.

 

[googleplex]

Are people still going on about PC compatibility? There is zero reason or benefit for Sony to have Morpheus work on PC.

Just stop guys.

 

[cyberheater]

Are people still going on about PC compatibility? There is zero reason or benefit for Sony to have Morpheus work on PC.

Just stop guys.

About that. It's real simple. I'm not buying it unless it's PC compatible. I'm not having more then one VR head set in the house.

 

[AmyS]

What are the chances MS partners with Valve or Facebook to bring VR to their system? I can't see them staying on the sidelines of the VR wars.

Doubtful anything like that would happen for Xbox One.

Microsoft has a completely different, Augmented Reality system in development, (HoloLens) that's intended to become a product within the lifetime of Windows 10. They didn't mention consoles though.

HoloLens isn't expected to be ready earlier than 2018 and by then, the next generation Xbox should probably at least be on the horizon. And Microsoft had job listings last year for their next Xbox. But whether or not HoloLens is intended for PCs, a future Xbox, or both, wasn't made clear.