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Religious institutions and governments hold enormous power us just because what they really know vs what the majority of us are told life, society, or the nature of the universe in general.
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Do Secret Socities Rule the World?
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Religious institutions and governments hold enormous power us just because what they really know vs what the majority of us are told life, society, or the nature of the universe in general.
You seem to a very smart dude/dudette that disagrees with a lot of my worldviews. I like you
I was referring specifically to the belief in God or a higher power/plane of existence, that so many "scientific minded" people seem to dismiss outright, when I think quantum physics is making great strides in unveiling the true reality of our existence and the possibilities of such claims being true.
The concept of God is most definitely ridiculed as a blasphemous concept in the current scientific community though. It shouldn't be, I agree, but it is.
But there is a serious fallacy in dismissing those theories based solely off that concept.
All the scientific and philosophical progress we have ever made are based off of ideas that were once only believed by romantic outcasts. Its not an effective argument to dissuade "conspiracy theorists". To do that you have to actually counter their reasoning and clearly make your own case, not just group them all together as romantics and dismiss them as such.
well said.
well humanity used to rape their children and eat their infants, so natural forces can be as dark and depraved as anything when it's driven by human nature. As depraved, ignorant, selfish, and self-destructive as anything, certainly not infallible. so don't get me wrong. WW wasn't the best of persons or presidents and he would probably number among the upper 10% anyway, but natural forces should scare you, not ease your mind. Natural forces like hunger, hate, paranoia, racism\tribalism, irrational fear of death and starvation and crowding that demands expansion into the territories of others, etc. Those are the natural forces at work here.
You could find polls about individual conspiracies, maybe one about a single world power? Not sure.
That quote suggested that there are lots of conspiracies...and the main reason they have support is because of comfort.
And then he says the truth about I guess a single conspiracy (or all of them?) is that the world is chaotic and no one has any control.
Pretty useless.
As I said in last post, most people find the story that fits in with their views already, and societal situation probably, comforting.
Blargonaut
Banned
edit: nvm
An evil conspiracy is still less scary to a lot of people than the randomness of chaos. People find the idea of incidents happening for a specific reason a comforting idea, because it enforces the illusion that life is something that be controlled, and therefore bad things happening to yourself can be avoided.
Blargonaut
Banned
I think this is definitely the case.
The thing is, the things you bring out as 'Evidence' for it are still anecdotal observations.
It is hardwired in our brains to assume things happen for a reason.
At it's most basic, the newfound Illuminati \ Masons \ Whatever conspiracies are brought up are basically religion.
I find most of them no different than Zeus and his crew up the Mount Olympus - And you'd find a whole lot of people thinking religion is true in the right circles, in the right time.
It is only natural, when stopped by mysterious Market Forces, to think malice is behind it. It is a convenient excuse to tell oneself, and the bigger the ego, the more needed are self-delusions to keep oneself sane.
If you're talking about business elites dictating policy, i wouldn't call that SECRET, nor i would call that "Ruling".
And we're done here.
It is hardwired in our brains to assume things happen for a reason.
At it's most basic, the newfound Illuminati \ Masons \ Whatever conspiracies are brought up are basically religion.
I find most of them no different than Zeus and his crew up the Mount Olympus - And you'd find a whole lot of people thinking religion is true in the right circles, in the right time.
It is only natural, when stopped by mysterious Market Forces, to think malice is behind it. It is a convenient excuse to tell oneself, and the bigger the ego, the more needed are self-delusions to keep oneself sane.
If you're talking about business elites dictating policy, i wouldn't call that SECRET, nor i would call that "Ruling".
And we're done here.
If the majority of Americans believe that the people they elect to office are the ones that hold the power, and it turns out that its instead people whom we don't even know the names of that do...then yeah it seems pretty secretive to me.
Turn on any of the major news network and they will rarely, if ever, place blame to the specific special interests or lobbyists that actually influenced the policies, law, whatever, but rather the politicians that voted them into law.
Evil conspiracy vs randomness
Neither sound comforting to me.
Explanations are comforting. Things that make sense to you. Things that fit in with your understanding of things, whatever that might be.
I think people like some structure, sure.
Some people get confused or unsure too, pretty understandable.
CornBurrito
Member
No. Girls rule the world.
Well, I dug up this here if anyone's interested. It's a topical result from a general conspiracy theory poll from PPP.
mmazurkiewicz
Member
well there is this one family named the Rothschilds...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family
yeh, i'd imagine they're part of whichever secret society that exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family
yeh, i'd imagine they're part of whichever secret society that exists.
I did get you wrong, but this sentiment of yours really clarifies how you meant it.
I agree with but my problem and most of us know science and technology have enabled those natural force to achieve thing in this world that wouldn't be achieved before hand. Not only that there seems to be this well apathy by people just leave the worst people in power to their own devices instead of being vigilant and opposing them.
block tower
Member
its a funny thing on Gaf OT, you can have people reasonably debate economics, politics and social issues; ive even seen great write ups about how some of these systems are so controlled and managed so that their is a status quo maintained for the gain of power. but somehow the idea the an elite few, however many a "few'" is, that works behind the scenes to maintain power, is ridiculed and seen with Illuminati jokes.so sadly i doubt we'll get a good discussion out of this, nor will 'skeptics" really look into this subject in further detail.
we can call it apathy. truth of the matter is it's fear. we're of the system, why would we want to bring it down? and since these are the worst people, and we know this, and we're not denying it anymore, we're afraid to take them on, because we know what happens to the loser.
I don't think it's really fear, it's just a matter of time marching on that gives perspective.
block tower
Member
you haven't failed, its just the audience your addressing. as an atheist its always insulting how ridiculed conspiracy theories are on this site. as if wanting to discuss more reasonable aspects of plausible conspiracy theories are the same as trying to debate a religious belief system. im someone who is a cynic and a skeptic, but a lot of conspiracy theories are hardly that far-fetched, uncomfortable and perhaps a stretch if your ignorant to them, but certainly not implausible. i love the idea that humans can achieve great success and fetes when it comes to science, art, and other aspects of life, but as soon as conspiracy theories of human intervention arise, suddenly humans become the most inept creatures on the planet and everyone who might give credence to a conspiracy theory isnt very discerning from fact or fiction.
like i said, sadly with this topic GAF OT is the wrong audience.
CornBurrito
Member
It doesn't matter how plausible something sounds. What matters is the objective evidence that can be gathered. Evolution isn't particularly plausible, especially since human minds are hard pressed to grasp the time involved, or how there really aren't solidified distinct species, but a gradient. Yet the evidence for it is there. In contrast, nearly every civilization has similar creation myths. With short time periods (1000s of years) and special creation of humans. Despite being more plausible the evidence for it isn't there.
go on. I have an idea of what you might mean, but I want more to draw from.
perspective could just be another comfort zone buffer.
Don't worry, I think you succeeded. It's just here we're marked with a unique brand of skepticism. Perhaps a more extreme kind.
What block said.
Somewhat back on track, you know what I find most fascinating about conspiracy theories like this? How fun they are, whether true or false. I'll level; I don't believe in a singular secretive body puppeteering politics incognito, but fuck is it fun to chase after the possibility.
I'm sorry but after seeing someone get blown up for wanting to testify about a coverup I tend not to buy in to this bullshit reasoning. When the sociopaths of this world fear being exposed nothing is off the table and the idea that our judicial system should be trusted in light citizen united, the lack of banks being prosecuted for the worst crime of the last 200 years, and racial bullshit we see makes me laugh.
The people involved with said crimes have also gone to certain lengths to ensure any investigation yeilds jack see jfk assination or 9/11. Be it big or small crimes the notion you shouldn't consider something because of lack evidence doesn't mean you should ignore it when the very people accused are the ones responsible for that lack of evidence.
in an ideal world I would live by what you said but after 10 years of watching society lie to itself when it matters this is a hollow statement much like the alan moore quote.
I think that all the evidence supporting evolution should be considered also along with our creation myths. As you mentioned they are all very similar (fall from grace, knowledge of good and evil) and were developed around the same time in parts of the world that had no contact with each other. I find that utterly fascinating as it may suggest some underlying truth and perhaps divine intervention of some sort.
Well I have been on this planet longer than most. I have a perspective range that might not be smarter or as perceptive as some, or maybe so and some, doesn't matter... I've seen more. That's an honest fact.
It's regurgitation.
CornBurrito
Member
Feel free to live in a world where only things that sound plausible are correct, regardless of the evidence present.
No sorry. At best it plays into human cognition and that our myths are simply derived from our naturally evolved cognitive processes. You also see similar fairy tales across cultures. Because humans are humans. It doesn't suggest an underlying truth to the earth being 1000s instead of millions of years old, nor does it suggest divine intervention. Giving equal weight to creation myths or any weight to them just because they exist is asinine.
The truth is
[redacted]
*shredding commencing*
When you're talking about government agencies and incredibly powerful companies, evidence can be harder to come by. You're right to suggest not spreading them as anything but theories until proven otherwise though.
But it's not like evolution wasn't happening until it was discovered.
CornBurrito
Member
Ok? I never said it wasn't. I'm simply giving an example of something that isn't plausible to most humans. Many scientific theories are at odds with intuitive human cognition. Even humans who believe in evolution often have a poor or incorrect understanding of it because they try and work a more naturally plausible/cognitively intuitive explanation into it.
My only point is that something sounding implausible doesn't make it false. Nor does something sounding plausible make it true. All that matters is the objective evidence that can be gathered for the claim.
I'm not and that wasn't my point.
If one side of the equation is destroying evidence while claiming they are just you have a problem we have exactly that going on visibly in almost every country.
I would love total truth but in our world when truth can be the reason you're out of power it causes a very dynamic we see at play.
Nature sure is mysterious.
CornBurrito
Member
If it is going on visibly in every country then you'd have evidence for it happening.
Turning absence of evidence into evidence is crazy. Because now any evidence for the conspiracy is evidence, but no evidence for it also becomes evidence. You've made it "heads I win, tails you lose."
You might be right, but don't expect to convince anyone else.
Yes it is.
block tower
Member
considering the U.S. even has a Freedom of Information Act, id say your premise that all evidence or information on real happenings in just our own country is available knowledge is a bit ridiculous. not to mention documents either get denied or are released with heavy redacting all the time. so i fail to see your point about lack of evidence or information doesn't mean evidence. even if you had "evidence" on a particular subject you wished to learn more about, again, you could easily be denied certain portions of information. if you dont believe me feel free to google search how futile getting access to certain information on classified topics are.
Again misrepresenting what I'm actually saying as something else.
Since you need an examples of this behavior lets introduce the fbi's history of internal investgation for when agents may have broke rules or done things improperly never turning out a single case where they have to be not justified. There is something wrong when an instutition like the fbi or cops basically never find anything wrong about the very people they employ in protecting us. Something like that should be statistical impossible yet here it is right before you. How about the us not proecescuting big banks for what they did in the last decade in regards to banking collapse. So again my point what good is evidence when it doesn't matter by those who could do something about it.
There's no absence of evidence in the two things I mention the only absence is justice or even the attempt at bringing it about.
I don't convince people of boogeymen I expose them to the nature of events that have taken place and ask them why are they complacement when by all accounts they shouldn't be. Wanna accuse me of what you did please bring up some real quotes and hold me down for something I actually did vs a notion you haven't proved.
People believe in their views and understanding of things. It's probably why some conspiracies manage to spread so much without damning evidence.
You seem aware.
I don't find that as a reasonable enough explanation. I think there is a lot about our history that would blow us away if we knew, Im atleast open to the possibility of some type of divine intervention. Humans evolved incredibly quickly in a comparatively short amount of time and there are enough missing links for me to remain open on the subject.
I also am open to the idea that the world at one time had technology/a way of communicating across great distances with one another. It would explain the similarities between our creation myths and other remarkable coincidences like the building of pyramids in every part of the world.
I very much doubt there's a big enough group that basically controls the whole world, but I'm sure there are plenty of very powerful groups that control whatever sector they're in, wasn't there a group that basically controlled England's banks lending rate or something last year?
CornBurrito
Member
And that's my point. How reasonable it is to you doesn't matter. The evidence for evolution is there. The evidence for a young earth or special creation is not. What evidence do you have that humans evolved quicker than other species?
That humans around the world have similar cognitive processes and this natural cognition is rooted in most myths/fairy tales does not mean those stories are rooted in truth. It means they are rooted in natural cognitive processes.The evidence points to that right now. I have no problem believing what the evidence shows, and revising if new evidence becomes available. Meanwhile you just believe whatever the fuck you want it seems.
block tower
Member
i think the idea that the ancient world was in better communication than normally thought of is a very interesting. after all histories and anthropologists are constantly revising their knowledge of who was where at what time; so i think that is something that time may answer more than anything . i think just the subject of Pangea is infinitely fascinating to me. to sit there and think about how nature carried on as one gigantic ecosystem and then slowly evolved as separate vastly self sufficient ecosystems is so cool. so what humanity did between all that is equally fascinating.
speculawyer
Member
also OP. you should watch some videos by robert anton wilson, as he shows alot of conspiracies aren't real.
you shoud watch R.A.W. in general, as he's a very interesting man.
This is so accurate.
I've met and dealt with many millionaires and some billionaires . . . and it is not like they are a bunch of geniuses. A few are. Some are pretty smart. Many were just at the right place at the right time. Many were just born into it.
None of them had any strong control of things.
Lol did you read anything from my post other then what you quoted? Never claimed either
CornBurrito
Member
I'm inclined to believe that a world-controlling group doesn't exist. Certain industries? Perhaps.
I just want to say with utter disgust that I'm sick of special interest groups and lobbyists in politics. I think voting for a politician is meaningless when these outside parties are influencing laws and policies.
I just want to say with utter disgust that I'm sick of special interest groups and lobbyists in politics. I think voting for a politician is meaningless when these outside parties are influencing laws and policies.
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