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[remember_spinal]

From witcher, to cyberpunk, to skyrim, outerworlds, dragon age, etc…. I’m not counting isometric CRpgs like divinity and shadowrun due to the tactical nature of the games that add an extra element to the combat systems, more so the stuff that focuses on real time combat.

I think the VATS system was the perfect solution for this as it added some kind of tactical turn-based design to real time combat. It was like the perfect blend of something like pillars or pathfinder for 3d games.

It feels like a lot of WRPG games aren’t really doing a lot to evolve this specific attribute. Maybe because they are overly reliant on stat based gameplay, its necessary for them to dumb down the skill based gameplay aspect. Or maybe it’s the game engines that require resources be put into other things.

I just can’t help but think how much better Witcher would play if it had Shadows of Mordor combat, etc.

 

[Gaiff]

Not just RPGs, western games in general that don't rely on guns have shit combat. Seems most of them still haven't figured out how to make compelling melee combat like Nioh, DMC, or even the Souls game. God of War is good but that's one in a million and probably the best combat western devs have to offer.

 

[ACESHIGH]

Japanese: melee based combat.

West: gun based combat.

It's cultural. Look at how the Japanese always make weapons like swords or knives do more damage than a gun.

 

[Filben]

As someone already mentioned God of War is pretty good at this and also Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Maybe Mount & Blade? Haven't played that one. But generally most games tend to lean on vertical progression than on horizontal as the former is easier to manipulate by the devs and to balance for the whole game.

The combat in the Dishonored series is really engaging, but then again it is not really an RPG. Same goes for Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

 

[remember_spinal]

Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

 

[Fbh]

For the most part, yeah. I like WRPG's but be it Skyrim, Dragon Age, The Witcher 3 or Fallout I consistently find the combat to be weakest part of all of them. I don't necessarily think combat is truly bad in them (except Skyrim) but it's always serviceable at best.

 

[The Cockatrice]

The Surge has the best non-japanese melee combat alongside God of War. It's insane how absolutely no one has decided to copy that games incredibly unique mechanic, which is if you target a specific enemy limb you get the armor piece from that limb, if you cut the leg you get leg parts or leg mats. Its such an incredibly genius idea that I am shocked no one else attempted to do it. Then again, we have the Nemesis system and has not been used at all besides Mordor games. What a fucking wasted opportunity. Seems like these days western developers stopped innovating and would rather just give you colored loot and lootboxes and battlepasses. Whoever said gaming is better these days is such a fucking moron.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I’m looking at games like Mordhou, Chivalry, Sifu, For Honor, and even stuff like Spiderman and wondering how you can make such a generalization?

If only some of these Japanese developers that focus solely on combat, got everything else right.

 

[remember_spinal]

The Surge has the best non-japanese melee combat alongside God of War. It's insane how absolutely no one has decided to copy that games incredibly unique mechanic, which is if you target a specific enemy limb you get the armor piece from that limb, if you cut the leg you get leg parts or leg mats. Its such an incredibly genius idea that I am shocked no one else attempted to do it. Then again, we have the Nemesis system and has not been used at all besides Mordor games. What a fucking wasted opportunity. Seems like these days western developers stopped innovating and would rather just give you colored loot and lootboxes and battlepasses. Whoever said gaming is better these days is such a fucking moron.

I think Tears of The Kingdom is doing something similar. You can knock parts off monsters to make them into weapons

 

[remember_spinal]

looking at games like Mordhou, Chivalry, Sifu, For Honor, and even stuff like Spiderman and wondering how you can make such a generalization?

I specifically stated western rpg games…

 

[Jack Videogames]

Japanese: melee based combat.

West: gun based combat.

It's cultural. Look at how the Japanese always make weapons like swords or knives do more damage than a gun.

It's hard to shake off cultural imprints. Like when American games have the revolver being more powerful than regular handguns for some reason.

 

[ClanOfNone]

The Surge has the best non-japanese melee combat alongside God of War. It's insane how absolutely no one has decided to copy that games incredibly unique mechanic, which is if you target a specific enemy limb you get the armor piece from that limb, if you cut the leg you get leg parts or leg mats. Its such an incredibly genius idea that I am shocked no one else attempted to do it. Then again, we have the Nemesis system and has not been used at all besides Mordor games. What a fucking wasted opportunity. Seems like these days western developers stopped innovating and would rather just give you colored loot and lootboxes and battlepasses. Whoever said gaming is better these days is such a fucking moron.

The Nemesis system only appearing in 2 games is one of gaming's biggest crimes. I'm even more surprised that other devs haven't made their own version of it. It made an otherwise mediocre game a whole lotta fun, I still play a few hours here and there.

 

[Azelover]

I believe so, yes.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I specifically stated western rpg games…

Oh gotcha. I’m not a big JRPG guy but the few that I have played like Dragon Quest and the Tales games aren’t very complex. Scarlet Nexus didn’t feel so either.

I’m perfectly happy with serviceable combat. Stuff like Xenoblades looks to bloated to me and is a turn off.

 

[remember_spinal]

Oh gotcha. I’m not a big JRPG guy but the few that I have played like Dragon Quest and the Tales games aren’t very complex. Scarlet Nexus didn’t feel so either.

I’m perfectly happy with serviceable combat. Stuff like Xenoblades looks to bloated to me and is a turn off.

Elden Ring is a JRPG though

 

[YukiOnna]

Yes. They also lack in boss design (or are devoid of bosses altogether sometimes) which prevents me from sticking with it.
Would love to see them take away from the mechanical nature of Japanese games or boss design because FROM rips them apart.

 

[SeraphJan]

Darksider had pretty good combat

 

[R6Rider]

Generally the opposite for me.

So many JRPGs have flashy and spammy combat combined with damage sponge enemies. Leads to boring and repetitive combat very quickly.

 

[remember_spinal]

Generally the opposite for me.

So many JRPGs have flashy and spammy combat combined with damage sponge enemies. Leads to boring and repetitive combat very quickly.

But shooting things for 5 minutes isn’t spongey?

 

[R6Rider]

But shooting things for 5 minutes isn’t spongey?

Not sure what games you are specifically referencing.

If it's Cyberpunk, I think that game is bad anyway, especially the combat.

Also, I don't consider Elden Ring a JRPG, or Dragon's Dogma for that matter.

 

[T4keD0wN]

From witcher, to cyberpunk, to skyrim, outerworlds, dragon age, etc…. I’m not counting isometric CRpgs like divinity and shadowrun due to the tactical nature of the games that add an extra element to the combat systems, more so the stuff that focuses on real time combat.

I think the VATS system was the perfect solution for this as it added some kind of tactical turn-based design to real time combat. It was like the perfect blend of something like pillars or pathfinder for 3d games.

It feels like a lot of WRPG games aren’t really doing a lot to evolve this specific attribute. Maybe because they are overly reliant on stat based gameplay, its necessary for them to dumb down the skill based gameplay aspect. Or maybe it’s the game engines that require resources be put into other things.

I just can’t help but think how much better Witcher would play if it had Shadows of Mordor combat, etc.

Nah, it just depends on which examples you pick and how far you stretch what counts as an RPG.
Doesnt every game no matter the camera perspective have some form"tactical nature". Do real-time ones like Diablo count?

And Cyberpunk, Witcher 3 can have great combat unless you for some ungodly reason play the vanilla versions.

 

[Wildebeest]

MMO setting the standards for RPG gameplay really messed with single player RPG design. Bad UI and control conventions. Braindead enemy behaviour. Weird floaty combat. MMO was killing single player RPG as a genre, but instead of the single player fighting back it started to cry like a baby and beg for its life saying how it was just like the MMO, or even worse just like GTA or Uncharted.

 

[Magic Carpet]

I think the answer is YES they do lack engaging combat, But do I want that in my RPG? I don't want to play Starfield like some Souls game.

 

[remember_spinal]

I think the answer is YES they do lack engaging combat, But do I want that in my RPG? I don't want to play Starfield like some Souls game.

I was really hoping starfield would have some type of advanced VATS system though. Being able to head shot in an rpg is great,

 

[Magic Carpet]

I was really hoping starfield would have some type of advanced VATS system though. Being able to head shot in an rpg is great,

Yes I would prefer some sort of VATS over a skill based action combat. Even Gunplay works in VATS.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

It's hard to shake off cultural imprints. Like when American games have the revolver being more powerful than regular handguns for some reason.

Granted revolvers can be chambered in big fuck-off powerful calibers that outside of Czechnological Wizardry like the FK Brno doesn't really work for autoloading handguns. Pitting the most popular revolver caliber (.357 mag) against the most popular semi caliber (9mm parabellum) isn't even a contest.

Not really disagreeing with you, just autistically nitpicking like the gun nut I am.

 

[Talkin Hawkin]

Western RPG's should go back to their turn based and table top roots. That's when they had the best combat.

 

[Yoshichan]

How dare you mention the term ”western”, don’t you know it’s derogatory? You should be ashamed of your words and deeds.

 

[Danjin44]

In my opinion because most western devs are much more concern about realism and immersion more than actual combat mechanics in their RPG.

 

[Barrico82]

Yes the only western RPG combat system worth mentioning is Horizon and even that in the 2nd game they ruined it

 

[DragoonWalker]

Well it's not like Japanese RPGs had brilliant combat either. Up until recent years, a lot of them were turn based, so it was a love it or hate it thing. It's just that the trends have moved to meld the action game--something Japanese devs also already excel--with their RPGs so now they have "engaging combat". Western RPGs evolved from a different lineage so it's just not as much a priority for them and players don't seem to demand it either.

 

[-tetsuo-]

most games in general tend to lack engaging combat

 

[OZ9000]

Mass Effect 2 and 3 have amazing combat.

 

[rofif]

forspoken.... ekhm... very fun, active combat... ekhm...
aaa western. ok.yes

 

[remember_spinal]

forspoken.... ekhm... very fun, active combat... ekhm...
aaa western. ok.yes

One of teh few areas in excelled in

 

[ungalo]

Maybe because they are overly reliant on stat based gameplay, its necessary for them to dumb down the skill based gameplay aspect.

That's it, you know the answer. Although they are slowly but surely getting more dynamic. I think CDPR games are a different case compared to Bethesda games. Cyberpunk has already almost an action game feeling.

 

[remember_spinal]

That's it, you know the answer. Although they are slowly but surely getting more dynamic. I think CDPR games are a different case than Bethesda games. Cyberpunk has already almost an action game feeling.

Cyberpunk did do it a bit better, they went out of their way to make a lot of different gun types.

 

[Sentenza]

No, they absolutely do-

I’m not counting isometric CRpgs like divinity and shadowrun due to the tactical nature of the games

-OH. It's one of those threads.

 

[FrozenFlame]

Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

Listen, KCD is one of the greatest/memorable games that I've played in the last decade, but the combat is the one thing that they really, REALLY, need to improve.for the sequel. It was ass.

As for the thread, perhaps it's one of those rose-colored glasses moment, but I do remember Kingdom of Amalur being great (if not the only thing about the game) combat.

 

[64bitmodels]

Not just RPGs, western games in general that don't rely on guns have shit combat. Seems most of them still haven't figured out how to make compelling melee combat like Nioh, DMC, or even the Souls game. God of War is good but that's one in a million and probably the best combat western devs have to offer.

agreed at first, but then i remembered Prince of Persia and Batman existed.

 

[NanaMiku]

Not just RPGs, western games in general that don't rely on guns have shit combat. Seems most of them still haven't figured out how to make compelling melee combat like Nioh, DMC, or even the Souls game. God of War is good but that's one in a million and probably the best combat western devs have to offer.

In my opinion because most western devs are much more concern about realism and immersion more than actual combat mechanics in their RPG.

I forgot where I saw this. But when western devs are making a proposal, they usually start it with "experience as x" and gameplay later. That's why sometime you get a game with great immersion but disjointed gameplay

 

[Danjin44]

I forgot where I saw this. But when western devs are making a proposal, they usually start it with "experience as x" and gameplay later. That's why sometime you get a game with great immersion but disjointed gameplay

Exactly! I bet you anything number one priority for games like RDR2 was realism and actual movement and combat is after thought.

 

[fart town usa]

As much as people rail on it, I really enjoy the combat in ME1.

Fallout 3 is the best that I can think of for WRPG, the VAT system is so damn cool. That game blew my mind back when it released.

 

[GymWolf]

I think Tears of The Kingdom is doing something similar. You can knock parts off monsters to make them into weapons

That break after 5 hits?

Do we know if they confirmed that?

 

[RevGaming]

From witcher, to cyberpunk, to skyrim, outerworlds, dragon age, etc…. I’m not counting isometric CRpgs like divinity and shadowrun due to the tactical nature of the games that add an extra element to the combat systems, more so the stuff that focuses on real time combat.

I think the VATS system was the perfect solution for this as it added some kind of tactical turn-based design to real time combat. It was like the perfect blend of something like pillars or pathfinder for 3d games.

It feels like a lot of WRPG games aren’t really doing a lot to evolve this specific attribute. Maybe because they are overly reliant on stat based gameplay, its necessary for them to dumb down the skill based gameplay aspect. Or maybe it’s the game engines that require resources be put into other things.

I just can’t help but think how much better Witcher would play if it had Shadows of Mordor combat, etc.

WRPGs usually don't require any type of reflexes, it's mostly let your stats and high level gear do the talking. The combat itself is very simple.

 

[Filben]

but the combat is the one thing that they really, REALLY

It's not a stat-only combat though. And for what it's worth it's one of the very few combat system where you don't make ridiculous dodge rolls, like in 90% of western RPGs and even in some Eastern JRPGs.

 

[RoadHazard]

I'm one of the weird people who actually think the combat in TW3 feels pretty good once you get into the flow of it.

 

[anthraticus]

Not just RPGs, western games in general that don't rely on guns have shit combat. Seems most of them still haven't figured out how to make compelling melee combat like Nioh, DMC, or even the Souls game. God of War is good but that's one in a million and probably the best combat western devs have to offer.

Yup....for (melee) action combat...go Japenese with stuff like Ninja Gaiden, Souls, Dark Arisen, etc... and for better tactical combat, go cRPGs or squad based tactics games like Jagged Alliance 2, etc..

 

[Kyo]

I used to be a big fan of WRPGs in the early to mid-'90s - Ultima VII & Serpent Isle and Wizardry VII are still huge favorites of mine. In some ways I feel they still haven't been surpassed because the general development moved away from telling stories in text form to visual depictions. And, well, it's just so much easier to find one talented writer to make an encounter with a character come to life than it is to find a whole team of 3D artists, animators and voice actors (plus someone directing all of this) on top of needing a good writer to start with. But I digress...

I've long felt that most of these games are best when the "gameplay" (if you want to call it that) takes place in menus, multiple-choice dialogue systems, turn-based battles and so on. As soon as things move to more direct controls (and this has sadly become very common for the genre), things usually take a nosedive. Laggy controls, bad animation, mediocre hit feedback, poorly planned and poorly executed combat systems... And it's not just the combat - any kind of direct interaction with the game world tends to look and feel clunky. I've always found this pretty immersion-killing and I feel it's one aspect where the gameplay often fails to keep up with the increased visual fidelity of modern games. It was far less problematic with pixel art games, obviously.

 

[tusharngf]

The Surge has the best non-japanese melee combat alongside God of War. It's insane how absolutely no one has decided to copy that games incredibly unique mechanic, which is if you target a specific enemy limb you get the armor piece from that limb, if you cut the leg you get leg parts or leg mats. Its such an incredibly genius idea that I am shocked no one else attempted to do it. Then again, we have the Nemesis system and has not been used at all besides Mordor games. What a fucking wasted opportunity. Seems like these days western developers stopped innovating and would rather just give you colored loot and lootboxes and battlepasses. Whoever said gaming is better these days is such a fucking moron.

yes SURGE got some slick combat moves. They are similar to bloodborne in many aspects.