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Doctor Who Off-Season | Hey Missy, you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind
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Lucian Cat
Kissed a mod for a tag; liked it
I love this thread title <3
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It was literally never mentioned again. "There'll be consequences..." Nope. Should have saved it for her end.
I think you give undue weight to the idea that for something to be science fiction it has to be about the future, or even humanity's future. Exploring timey-wimey (which Moffat has done arguably more than any era of Who to date) or alien-human interaction (I think Moffat's Doctors have been more alien than they've been in a long time, and RTD's by comparison much more human) is just as SF without visiting the future.
And let's not forget that the point of looking at the future *is* to explore the drama of the present.
This has *got* to be the first time I've ever seen someone say the problem with Moffat's era, compared to RTD's, is that it's *too character driven*. The complaint is usually quite the opposite, that Moffat is driven too much by spectacle and clever plotting and neglects the human element, while RTD's big on showing the character impact of things.
acheron_xl
Member
I'm kind of amazed at how quickly into Capaldi's reign I was totally over Smith's characterization of The Doctor. It was nice at the time, but man.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The timey wimey stuff is mechanically science fiction, but its rarely been philosophically science fiction. For every The Girl Who Waited there's The Angels Take Manhattan. This is, ironically, one of the only things Wedding of River song does right buried under a completely bungled execution. I went to the "future humanity" episodes as an example because they're the most clear possible representation of the show trying to be about humanity and its potential. There's an alienness to Smith's manic mannerisms sure, but the show never did nearly enough with that for my tastes. Capaldi is getting there, the first series is promising.
My problem isn't even explicitly with the lack of future episodes, its with the shift in focus, the shift in what the show is concerned with. You're absolutely right that the point is to explore the drama of the present, but lots of things do that, including just drama set in the present. Science fiction is about examining the present through a speculative lens. That doesn't always mean the future, but it does mean that the mechanically science fiction elements should also have thematic purpose behind them.
The problem with Moffat's stuff is absolutely that its too character centric, but the problem is that its too character centric while neglecting the human elements. This shows up everywhere, including in the overarching character dynamics of 5 (5 probably handled it the best to be fair, I don't have many gripes with it, it just has small issues that crop again larger later) and 6, but nowhere is it more apparent then S7 where most of the "meaningful character work" is presented as characters talking about how awesome other characters are (namely the Doctor and Clara talking about each other), resulting in the bizarre dynamics of the climax of the finale where Clara's sacrifice doesn't feel earned in anyway because we've just been told all season about how important the Doctor is to her
Again, S8 is much better in this regard and has me hopeful for the future
I feel the same. I loved The Eleventh Doctor but I can't imagine returning to that persona anytime soon because I love Twelve so much.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Hopefully she comes back sooner rather than later. If only because god damn it I want to know every last detail of her escape.
Tizoc
Member
I'd like that actually...and then we see the last of Clara and he gets a new companion for the next season.
Yep, I was worried he'd be back with a new regeneration next time though. Good to have confirmation that the same actress will still show up again, she was amazing in the role.
I would like to see Martha and Mickey back next year for an episode or two since it's the 10th anniversary of New Who and they are the only companions you could easily bring back, since you could just have Martha call the Doctor again.
"You think I'd give you an entire Cyberman army without implementing a failsafe to protect myself?"
Hot Coldman
Banned
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Why would we argue about best showrunner when Hinchcliffe exists
acheron_xl
Member
Hinchcliffe is OK, but I'd rather have Graham Williams.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
The only episodes I really liked with Williams were Horror of Fang Rock, City of Death, Ribos Operation, Stones of Blood & Androids of Tara.
They're great eps but I don't think they make up for the large amount of clunkers in his time.
acheron_xl
Member
I'm just really fond of the Key to Time arc. Maybe it's Mary Tamm's fault.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Yeah, she was pretty much the perfect companion to spar with Tom Baker. One of my favourites too.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
So series 8 was pretty great, yeah? The best "weird" alien in ages with the Flatline things, a nice mixture of tones between Robots of Sherwood and Listen, and only one real stinker in the entire bunch.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Majority of the eps were great, capaldi was great. Season opener and finale were pretty bad though.
acheron_xl
Member
I think so, yeah. It's been a bit depressing this season when I listen to a Doctor Who podcast (The Doctor Who Podcast chief among them), and they all take turns shitting on everything every week.
Exterminieren
Banned
Yep.
The quality of the individual episodes is probably the best we've had in an individual modern series, although series 4 and 5 probably hung together better.
Even the episodes that people don't like (KTM, ITFOTN) were disliked because they were trying to do something new and radical with the format and made a questionable job of it. No rewarmed Pertwee leftovers here!
acheron_xl
Member
I just wish we never had series 7B Clara. It put a proverbial turd in her character punchbowl that I've had a hard time getting over. I can intellectualize that she's vastly improved, but it's hard for me to shake that first impression.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
They duked on Sherwood, Mummy and Flatline???
acheron_xl
Member
They were admittedly relatively positive about the Mathieson episodes, and Listen (which I think is rather overrated,) but the hyperbolic scorn piled on everything else just gets tiresome. The show is 'too dark'. The Doctor is 'too mean'. Missy should've been the Rani, and is 'an embarrassment'. There aren't enough monsters and adventures and too much romance and relationship stuff. Dark Water is the worst episode since Colin's era, etc, etc... It really tempts me to do a podcast of my own, if for no other reason than to get analysis that's a level above 'Gallifrey Base complainer' into the ether.
paradox121
Member
She's almost entirely a new character. All that she's really missing is an intro episode, but otherwise she may as well have been introduced this year.
It's like the difference between S1 Rose and S2. One is a fantastic character, the other is the literal worst. Weirdly Amy's probably the only companion to survive two seasons and not have a personality transplant in between.
And re: all the podcast talk, I highly recommend everyone checks out Alasdair Wilkins (the guy who does the great AV Club reviews) podcast: http://debatingdoctorwho.tumblr.com/
He and Caroline Siede talk about the latest episode and compare it to something thematically linked from another series. Really great stuff, particularly for everyone who's a fan of his work already.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Yeah, I mean the season for me was:
Deep Breath 4/10
Into the Dalek 5/10
Robot of Sherwood 8/10
Listen 5/10
Time Heist 6/10
The Caretaker 8/10
Kill the Moon 6/10
Mummy on the Orient Express 9/10
Flatline 9/10
In the Forest of the Night 5/10
Dark Water/Death in Heaven 5/10
I think the last time there were 4 eps in a single season I liked was RTD's last full season...
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Funnily enough I'm fine with the darker bent they gave things, because its at least finally substantive darkness instead of window dressing. Capaldi is the perfect man to pull it off and I'm really hopeful that they can go interesting places with it
acheron_xl
Member
The thing I always say, is that Doctor Who is like Magic: the Gathering. If you don't like what's it's up to at the moment, just have patience - it'll change.
Maybe if everyone forgot about Tom Baker or Peter Davison!
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I loved season 8. There was no episode that I thought was out-and-out bad.
I think by the time his run is over, Capaldi will probably top Eccleston as my favorite new Doctor.
I think by the time his run is over, Capaldi will probably top Eccleston as my favorite new Doctor.
It's probably a Christmas special clip.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
don't be a grinch man
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Bump Into the Dalek up to a 7 or so (it was decent) and you have my ratings more or less.
And yeah its probably the best series since 4
This is more or less my rating, except I regarded the finale and into the Dalek a little higher
Absolutely. Sure RTD's era had issues but in terms of the old storytelling phrase 'show, don't tell' (in this case in relation to characters and emotions) he was far more on point.
Has the idea of The Doctor removing himself from all historical records been abandoned?
Or did it ever exist in the first place? Or only in the future timelines? Wouldn't he have had to delete any timelord/Master related records too?
I can't really remember what happened with that so could do with a reminder please.
Or did it ever exist in the first place? Or only in the future timelines? Wouldn't he have had to delete any timelord/Master related records too?
I can't really remember what happened with that so could do with a reminder please.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
So given that series 8 was so great, and as a vocal detractor of Smith's run as I'm sure most people have noticed, I have to ask: what the hell happened?
Well not what specifically changed, I can articulate that pretty easily. The first overarching plot in four series that doesn't revolve around convoluted timey-wimey bullshit that is going to feel like a cheat, the development of characters (Clara specifically) through choices that are made when dropped into actual situations instead of just puzzle boxes, the first time since, well, probably Eccleston where there are moments where we're maybe supposed to actually dislike the Doctor, or at the very least disapprove of him, the general decrease in fawning over him in general...there's an extensive list of what this series does right for me, on top of just, you know, telling good stories.
What I want to know is what the hell changed with Moffat? Because its not like these issues showed any sign of abating through S7, in fact the problems with Name and Time are utterly characteristic of the entire Smith run. So why the dramatic turnaround now?
Well not what specifically changed, I can articulate that pretty easily. The first overarching plot in four series that doesn't revolve around convoluted timey-wimey bullshit that is going to feel like a cheat, the development of characters (Clara specifically) through choices that are made when dropped into actual situations instead of just puzzle boxes, the first time since, well, probably Eccleston where there are moments where we're maybe supposed to actually dislike the Doctor, or at the very least disapprove of him, the general decrease in fawning over him in general...there's an extensive list of what this series does right for me, on top of just, you know, telling good stories.
What I want to know is what the hell changed with Moffat? Because its not like these issues showed any sign of abating through S7, in fact the problems with Name and Time are utterly characteristic of the entire Smith run. So why the dramatic turnaround now?
Masquerader
Member
Oh, never~! And I still prefer Capaldi. He just needs an amazing episode, his 'Caves of Androzani', tobe precise. I hope he gets it.
acheron_xl
Member
- Deep Breath 6/10
- Into the Dalek 7/10
- Robot of Sherwood 6/10
- Listen 6/10
- Time Heist 7/10
- The Caretaker 8/10
- Kill the Moon 5/10
- Mummy on the Orient Express 9/10
- Flatline 9/10
- In the Forest of the Night 4/10
- Dark Water 6/10
- Death in Heaven 8/10
Here's more or less how I feel.
*feeling may change or settle over time.
Moffat wanted to do something different. Maybe he's competent and self-aware enough to pull it off. Or maybe going from Marcus Wilson to Brian Minchin did it.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
My problem with "Into the Dalek" is that whilst it is a great ep if you take it by itself, the best part of the ep is basically a retread of "Dalek". I knew what the dalek was going to say before he said it, because we've seen it before.
Another thing that I think is rather relevant to showing and not telling is the whole "am I a good man?" thing. It feels like such an empty question to me because while the Moffat era Doctor can be unsympathetic or careless, he ultimately usually saves the day. As Clara learned in Flatline, it's not easy to keep everyone alive when you're being pursued by a monster.
I think the RTD era had better moral ambiguity surrounding the Doctor. In Family of Blood, he selfishly put everyone's life in danger while hiding, as well as not considering the possibility that his human version would have his own life, and one day have to sacrifice himself. In the End of Time, he seemed willing to put the life of the Master over the entire human race because he didn't want to be the last of his kind or lose his childhood friend. There's also the conclusion of the Christmas Invasion, where Harriet Jones did have good reason to destroy the Sycorax. Also the 9th Doctor's pure hatred of a single broken Dalek. I mean yes, Daleks are Hitler in a saltshaker, but it was hard to not feel sorry for it.
In the end, for me, "Am I a good man?" was like the dark age of the law in Ace Attorney. It's just a phrase that's repeated that ultimately doesn't really change the formula of what happens.
Exterminieren
Banned
Big Finish have announced that they're doing Third Doctor audios with a recast Third Doctor- Tim Trefor.
Really not sure how I feel about that. :S
Really not sure how I feel about that. :S
SigmasonicX
Member
It was just sort of irrelevant for most of series 7, and then after the Daleks got their memories of the Doctor back in "Time of the Doctor" from the Church of Evil, it's never been brought up again.
+2 for these references
and this also. With Eccleston in some key episodes you didn't need to even ask this question because it was already presented and floating around the head of the viewer (or at least for me) with the dilemma / situations given and Chris' reactions (I'm think Dalek here off the top of my head. He floated between rage and anguish and fury and some dark humour in this episode with such natural fluidity in some cases you honestly didn't know which way he was going to turn.
That to me is a far more effective and subtle way of creating a buzzword 'question that must never be answered' (as Moff may more literally state) for a season theme.
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