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[Boem]

The only christmas specials I liked were Christmas Carol (absolutely great) and Capaldi's christmas special. The other christmas specials, both under RTD and under Moffat, never did anything for me. But that's fine, I understand how the christmas episodes are aimed at a slightly different/bigger/drunker audience than the main show.

I do hope that Moffat's successor (and I say this as someone who's tired of the constant predictions/demands about when Moffat should leave) tries to change the tradition of christmas episodes having to be specifically about christmas. I understand why Moffat keeps doing it as it's one of his trademarks by now, but eh, I feel like that horse has been beaten enough by now. I feel like we've done all the tropes, from Dickens to songs to living christmas trees to Santa.

I'll admit, I don't really know what kind of christmas adventures would make sense in place of what we have now though. I would just be happy if they toned down the deliberately christmas themed plots/characters/enemies. I was actually hoping at the time that the fact that Matt Smith's last adventure taking place in a town actually called 'Christmas' would mean the end of that, and signify the use of christmas imagery like that as belonging specifically to Smith's Doctor. And then Santa showed up. Luckily Nick Frost played him though, so I can't really hate on that.

 

[TheJoRu]

Moffat hates endings.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Good Christmas specials:
The Christmas Invasion
The Runaway Bride
The End of Time (if you count it, I guess. It's kind of in a weird spot)
Last Christmas

All the others have been pretty much unwatchable.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I just called all of you one of the best fanbases.

I dunno if Whovians everywhere are as cool.

 

[infiniteloop]

I just called all of you one of the best fanbases.

I dunno if Whovians everywhere are as cool.

?

'classic' who fans are usually awful.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

?

'classic' who fans are usually awful.

WhoGAF is all I have to go on. And it's great.

 

[infiniteloop]

true.

 

[Mudcrab]

?

'classic' who fans are usually awful.

Almost as bad as NuWho fans.

Spoiler

Big Finish Uber Alles.

 

[Vibranium]

?

'classic' who fans are usually awful.

We're not all that bad. I love every Doctor in classic and new Who.

 

[Fireblend]

Happy to hear River is coming back for an episode. Should be fun

 

[Future Foundation]

WhoGAF is all I have to go on. And it's great.

I've got GB and WhoGAF to go on. The latter is pretty damn cool.

 

[embalm]

I'm excited for some River. I really love her when she is used sparingly and I hope this episode is more of the same. I also love it when the Dr has call backs.

 

[paradox121]

The only christmas specials I liked were Christmas Carol (absolutely great) and Capaldi's christmas special. The other christmas specials, both under RTD and under Moffat, never did anything for me. But that's fine, I understand how the christmas episodes are aimed at a slightly different/bigger/drunker audience than the main show.

I do hope that Moffat's successor (and I say this as someone who's tired of the constant predictions/demands about when Moffat should leave) tries to change the tradition of christmas episodes having to be specifically about christmas. I understand why Moffat keeps doing it as it's one of his trademarks by now, but eh, I feel like that horse has been beaten enough by now. I feel like we've done all the tropes, from Dickens to songs to living christmas trees to Santa.

I'll admit, I don't really know what kind of christmas adventures would make sense in place of what we have now though. I would just be happy if they toned down the deliberately christmas themed plots/characters/enemies. I was actually hoping at the time that the fact that Matt Smith's last adventure taking place in a town actually called 'Christmas' would mean the end of that, and signify the use of christmas imagery like that as belonging specifically to Smith's Doctor. And then Santa showed up. Luckily Nick Frost played him though, so I can't really hate on that.

I'm wondering if at some point they might shift to New Years specials like Sherlock or just Easter specials if the series stays in autumn. It's kinda become a weird British Christmas tradition at this point though, in the same way Christmas episodes of classic sitcoms used to be back in the day. I mean, I guess American shows have vaguely Christmas episodes, but its only over here where we have specific episodes on Christmas Day. Which to me has never made much sense, because the last thing I want to watch after 'enjoying' a Christmas with too much food and family is some fictional character doing the same thing, but there you go. The Christmas ratings seem to be slipping across the board though, perhaps because people are tired of the same old stuff, but I imagine mostly because Christmas emphasises new gadgets, which in turn emphasises non-broadcast stuff.

I'd totally agree with you that the best ones have been Christmas Carol and Last Christmas and both of those are pretty dour, sombre episodes loosely based around death and enjoying life while you have a chance. As much as DW does 'fluffy' Christmas episodes, I'm pretty sure they have higher than normal death counts. Waters of Mars was originally a Christmas episode for God's sake. That would have gone down well.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

In the thread, I specifically call out how much disagreement goes on in here without it getting personal

Spoiler

, assholes.

 

[Exterminieren]

As in all fanbases, there are absolutely insufferable elements- in our case, they're normally people who love either Modern Who or Classic Who and aggressively despise the other.

WhoGAF's great, though. You guys are good people.

 

[StealthGoblin]

My immediate reaction to the news was that of despair. Disliked her throughout. I do wonder whether Moffat is out of ideas.

He has trouble letting go.

 

[8bit]

I like Alex Kingston, and I'm sure she'll be a great foil to Peter Capaldi. I've been generally disappointed with the Christmas specials though so, we'll see.

 

[Ophelion]

Good Christmas specials:
The Christmas Invasion
The Runaway Bride
The End of Time (if you count it, I guess. It's kind of in a weird spot)
Last Christmas

All the others have been pretty much unwatchable.

I can always trust you to have my exact polarity-reversed tastes, Kuwabara. The consistency is somehow comforting. Everything in its proper place.

...

Last Christmas was pretty alright, though. Ended about as many times as Return of the King, but other than that, a good romp.

As for River, I'm always up for more of Professor Song. Depending on when in her timeline he's meeting her, it's going to be a very different story. It would actually be interesting if he bumps into her when she still doesn't have any real notion of who he is at all, somewhere just after Let's Kill Hitler, but before The Wedding of River Song on her timeline.

What would actually be especially cool is if since he's past the Doctors she was programmed to know about, she doesn't realize for the majority of the episode that he is the Doctor at all or maybe never does.

 

[DrForester]

Really don't get the hate for River Song, and it really makes sense for her to meet more than just 10 and 11. It all works out!

I liked River a LOT prior to her background reveal. It felt so stupid and underwhelming. I was hoping for a far grander story, someone who would have better grabbed The Doctor's interest. Not to just be his Companion's kid.

That being said, I love Kingston's performance and look forward to her working with Capaldi.

 

[danielcw]

I think River Song was great, but I also think they completely wrapped up her story already.

Well, her conclusion can always be Name of the Doctor but timey wimey will always be a way to bring her back.

Her last appearance was Name Of The Doctor, and that one opened a whole new question.
Before that, she was actually wrapped up, but now a question is raised. How could she be on Tranzalore, and in which form exactly.

I was hoping for a far grander story, someone who would have better grabbed The Doctor's interest. Not to just be his Companion's kid.

But it isn't just that. She isn't just a kid from a companion. She was also stolen and trained to be a weapon against the Doctor. Her whole live literally revolved about the Doctor, from conception, to purpose, even in freedom. From man she is supposed to kill with love to ever estranged husband.
I think that qualifies as grand

 

[Cowlick]

Her last appearance was Name Of The Doctor, and that one opened a whole new question.
Before that, she was actually wrapped up, but now a question is raised. How could she be on Tranzalore, and in which form exactly.

But we know, don't we? She's a projection from the Library.

 

[danielcw]

But we know, don't we? She's a projection from the Library.

Where was that said?
In some bonus material?

 

[Symphonia]

But we know, don't we? She's a projection from the Library.

Moffat's gonna Moffat and retcon that somehow.

 

[Team Filler]

I generally like the idea of River and love Alex Kingston, but they really wore the character thin with season 6 (similar to how the paternoster gang came very close to overstaying their welcome). I think a once-in-a-long-while appearance is a much better treatment of River Song.

Midway through my pre-series 9 series 8 rewatch, just finished Kill the Moon and I think I dislike the episode even more, knowing how they handle The Doctor and Clara afterwards, and I'm convinced even moreso than before that Clara was very much in the wrong for her behavior at the end of the episode. One of the lines that irks me in particular is her bit about,

don’t you dare lump me in with the rest of all the little humans that you think are so tiny and silly and predictable.

This is the same Doctor that says in his very first episode,

Those people down there. They’re never small to me. Don’t make assumptions about how far I will go to protect them because I’ve already come a very long way.

It would've made much more sense for them to show in later episodes that it Clara is projecting her own sense of superiority or laissez-faire attitude over others onto the Doctor in this moment, especially when you consider that early on in Kill the Moon she insists they leave because it has become dangerous, and the Doctor almost reprimands her for thinking their time-traveling thing is ever not dangerous.

Instead, we're expected to think Danny has the right of the situation (sure the Doctor is a prat towards soldiers because of their small-minded thinking, and Danny is no different when the Doctor encounters him) and that his and Clara's forced, crap-relationship is actually this really special and heartfelt coupling that is unceremoniously cutoff by Danny's inability to pay a single seconds attention to the street he is crossing.

 

[Cowlick]

Where was that said?
In some bonus material?

 

[danielcw]

Not sure what I am seeing here.
Are you trying to say, that the episode said she was an echo from library?
Because I don't remember that being said or implied in the episode at all.
Didn't she just say that it is complicated

 

[Box of Bunnies]

Not sure what I am seeing here.
Are you trying to say, that the episode said she was an echo from library?
Because I don't remember that being said or implied in the episode at all.
Didn't she just say that it is complicated

DOCTOR: Oh, she's dead, I'm afraid. She's been dead for a very long time.
RIVER: Yeah, probably should have mentioned that. Never the right time.

and then

DOCTOR: There is a time to live and a time to sleep. You are an echo, River. Like Clara. Like all of us, in the end. My fault, I know, but you should've faded by now.

 

[Boem]

?

'classic' who fans are usually awful.

Hey now, that's me you're talking about.

Spoiler

I like both though, and even though I have my preferences (preferring the Moffat era over the RTD era) I don't think I ever hate on people for thinking the opposite. It's all fun, even though opinions on what's more fun can vary. I also don't blame people for not being interested in the classic series - I'd be the first to admit that it has aged a lot.

Spoiler

Please love me.

 

[8bit]

DOCTOR: Oh, she's dead, I'm afraid. She's been dead for a very long time.
RIVER: Yeah, probably should have mentioned that. Never the right time.

and then

DOCTOR: There is a time to live and a time to sleep. You are an echo, River. Like Clara. Like all of us, in the end. My fault, I know, but you should've faded by now.

River also says something like I died saving him and he saved me to the library IIRC.

 

[Worthintendo]

?

'classic' who fans are usually awful.

Out of interest can I ask why? Just as someone who grew up watching the end of the McCoy stuff when it was on TV and then going back to watch as much as I can of the old stuff, I consider myself just as much a fan of classic as I am new.

 

[danielcw]

DOCTOR: Oh, she's dead, I'm afraid. She's been dead for a very long time.
RIVER: Yeah, probably should have mentioned that. Never the right time.

and then

DOCTOR: There is a time to live and a time to sleep. You are an echo, River. Like Clara. Like all of us, in the end. My fault, I know, but you should've faded by now.

Guess I will have to give the episode another spin, when I renew my Netflix account

 

[Platy]

always saw every appearance of River as "we are not seeing her on the correct timeline order"

Kill Hitler is her "first" and library is her last.

Everything else is in between

 

[M.Bluth]

Yikes the River Song haters are out in droves today. Thankfully I still find the character quite enjoyable and its been years since she's been on DW cant wait to see what her and 12 are like together on screen.

Oh, I don't really hate River. There's potential for a great story between her and 12. I definitely would enjoy a River Song that is more in-line with the series 8 tone.

But it's a Christmas special, so it probably won't.

 

[infiniteloop]

i want this
http://www.dwcompletehistory.com

 

[paradox121]

That does seem cool. Questionable selection of episodes to start with though:

Seeing that Human/Dalek monstrosity again I ... kinda wanna go rewatch Daleks In Manhattan. I wonder what Andrew Garfield regrets more, that or Spider-man.

 

[TheJoRu]

Seeing that Human/Dalek monstrosity again I ... kinda wanna go rewatch Daleks In Manhattan. I wonder what Andrew Garfield regrets more, that or Spider-man.

No one really cares about his Doctor Who-appearance, nor was he the cause of anything particularly bad in it (he was in fact one of the better things about it), so I doubt he's bothered by it. Any negative connotations in terms of his short tenure as Spider-Man probably stings more.

 

[The Real Abed]

Andrew Garfield was in Daleks in Manhattan?

 

[ClivePwned]

Andrew Garfield was in Daleks in Manhattan?

yes, he's the kid from Hooverville who tags along with The Doctor and Martha.

Also, Felicity Jones (also from ASM2, Theory of Everything, Star Wars: Rogue One) was in The Unicorn and the Wasp.

Doctor Who: The stepping stone for bigger and better things in America.

Spoiler

Unless you're David Tennant

 

[BrokenFiction]

Doctor Who: The stepping stone for bigger and better things in America.

Spoiler

Unless you're David Tennant

Well, Jessica Jones might have something to say about that.

 

[Quick]

yes, he's the kid from Hooverville who tags along with The Doctor and Martha.

Also, Felicity Jones (also from ASM2, Theory of Everything, Star Wars: Rogue One) was in The Unicorn and the Wasp.

Doctor Who: The stepping stone for bigger and better things in America.

Spoiler

Unless you're David Tennant

Carey Mulligan is Sally Sparrow in Blink, just to add in.

 

[APZonerunner]

In truth I don't think it has much to do with Doctor Who and everything to do with the fact that Hollywood loves poaching British acting talent and you have to I think actively avoid it to be a young British actor now and not pass through Doctor Who as a guest star. The 'new location of the week' thing means they churn through guests at an alarming rate, and within the UK it's a relatively prestigious job that it's hard to say no to.

The actual stars have never had much luck - I wouldn't be surprised to see Smith's Hollywood career lose steam (especially after Terminator, hahahaha) into a role here and there like Eccleston, Karen Gillan sort of had a stint there doing TV but it seems to be tapering off - Freema Agyeman had quite a bit of success doing that Sex & the City prequel, but she's back on UK shows more now, Barrowman has his regular role on Arrow but doesn't seem to be able to translate that to any other big roles, etc. In fairness to Tennant, too, he had one failed pilot and decided he didn't like Hollywood and moved back to the UK where he started a family and continues to have a solid body of TV & stage work here.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Andrew Garfield is (like the rest of the episode entire) pretty shitty in that two-parter. He's not the shittiest thing in it - but he's still pretty bad.

(that two-parter is the worst Doctor Who anything I've watched since it's return, and some of the worst Doctor Who, period)

 

[Mariolee]

In truth I don't think it has much to do with Doctor Who and everything to do with the fact that Hollywood loves poaching British acting talent and you have to I think actively avoid it to be a young British actor now and not pass through Doctor Who as a guest star. The 'new location of the week' thing means they churn through guests at an alarming rate, and within the UK it's a relatively prestigious job that it's hard to say no to.

The actual stars have never had much luck - I wouldn't be surprised to see Smith's Hollywood career lose steam (especially after Terminator, hahahaha) into a role here and there like Eccleston, Karen Gillan sort of had a stint there doing TV but it seems to be tapering off - Freema Agyeman had quite a bit of success doing that Sex & the City prequel, but she's back on UK shows more now, Barrowman has his regular role on Arrow but doesn't seem to be able to translate that to any other big roles, etc. In fairness to Tennant, too, he had one failed pilot and decided he didn't like Hollywood and moved back to the UK where he started a family and continues to have a solid body of TV & stage work here.

It really is a shame that Karen Gillan's career hasn't taken off more outside of Guardians of the Galaxy. In particular because I was a big fan of Selfie in part because it featured John Cho and there aren't enough TV shows with a male Asian lead, especially one where the love interest is caucasian. I also loved what Gillan did with her character. Although offputting at first (which is the point), Eliza was a fantastic spin on the original character in My Fair Lady and I thought the commentary in each episode was actually incredibly relevant and apt. Also, it was pretty funny.

#saveSelfie

 

[APZonerunner]

Andrew Garfield is (like the rest of the episode entire) pretty shitty in that two-parter. He's not the shittiest thing in it - but he's still pretty bad.

(that two-parter is the worst Doctor Who anything I've watched since it's return, and some of the worst Doctor Who, period)

Still think thematically it's the most interesting Dalek story since Genesis, to be honest. It botches its concept (Dalek in-fighting, Sec going against the code, etc) less than Aslyum does (where 'insane' Dalek = 'a bit broken'). It's just wrecked by the bizarre "pig slave" bullshit and some really hammy guest stars with terrible accents.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Yeah, I don't disagree. Part of why it's such a disaster to me is because it botches the potential of the story so hard. If the story itself was just dumb and had nothing of any worth on the idea level, then I'd probably like it more - it'd just be a Season 1 episode of Torchwood, basically.

But it could have been/should have been more than what it was, and instead it ineptly murders any possibility for not just goodness, but mediocrity. It boldly shits its pants to death and then lets a bunch of pig men snurfle around for truffles.

 

[SigmasonicX]

There's just so much odd about that story. Why didn't the Daleks self-destruct the human Daleks as soon as they turned on them? How did Time Lord DNA get channeled through lightning, and why would that affect the human Daleks anyway? Why did the main Dalek keep that doofy accent when he took over that human's body? Why were there so many doofy accents? Etc.

I feel that they did somewhat use the Dalek from "Into the Dalek" to explore some of the "good Dalek" ideas they tried to address in "Daleks in Manhattan" but buried under everything else. If the Dalek survived and wasn't killed off screen, hopefully they could do more with it.

 

[Ophelion]

Still think thematically it's the most interesting Dalek story since Genesis, to be honest. It botches its concept (Dalek in-fighting, Sec going against the code, etc) less than Aslyum does (where 'insane' Dalek = 'a bit broken'). It's just wrecked by the bizarre "pig slave" bullshit and some really hammy guest stars with terrible accents.

I see what you did there.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Chris Taylor at Mashable just posted an article (spoilery) trying to outline where he thinks this season is going, and what the underlying thematic thrust is probably going to be.

Again, spoilery. But interesting.

 

[Ophelion]

Chris Taylor at Mashable just posted an article (spoilery) trying to outline where he thinks this season is going, and what the underlying thematic thrust is probably going to be.

Again, spoilery. But interesting.

A lot of his conjecture really feels like grasping at straws to me, but a lot of the little things Moffat and co. have let slip do indeed sound very exciting. Especially whatever's going on in that two-part opener.

The idea of

Spoiler

The 12th briefly becoming the 8th Doctor

is obviously very exciting to me as I'm sure it is to you, Bobby.

 

[StealthGoblin]

i want this
http://www.dwcompletehistory.com

Ludicrously expensive.