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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]
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Chrono Helix
Member
Add a Pugna to decrepify the target.
You do get a win I think, if it's after 10 minutes. If somebody ragequits, and makes it 4vs5, and it's safe to leave. After 10 minutes you get a loss regardless. It's a pretty shitty system. Have like 10 losses because of people leaving. Hope they change that soon :/
There are only 2 ways to reliably win games in matchmaking:
Go solo mid and just destroy the lane and gank everyone, like go as bloodseeker and go 20-0.
Go to easy lane with your teams hardcarry as lich and deny w sacrifice and stack pull and then win the crap out of your lane as their allies do nothing to help them.
Go solo mid and just destroy the lane and gank everyone, like go as bloodseeker and go 20-0.
Go to easy lane with your teams hardcarry as lich and deny w sacrifice and stack pull and then win the crap out of your lane as their allies do nothing to help them.
Both these things don't help if the rest of your team feeds like crazy, buy no/shit items and are just generally bad/new though.
Can't win 1 vs 5.
The_Player
Member
It's 5 losses in a row now. SO. FUCKING. FRUSTRATED.
True, when I said reliably, I didn't mean 100% of the time, I just meant its a lot more likely than if you are doing something else.
Happens to everyone. Gone total choke mode the last two days myself, gonna bring it back now.
RadicalRad
Member
What time does Gaf usually do organized games? Seemed dead last night.
SOMEONE CARRY THIS MAN TO VICTORY!
Dreams-Visions
Member
I think it depends on the nature of the game, somehow. For example, perhaps we didn't win because our first disconnect happened before first blood? Maybe...not sure how the game determines under what conditions a game will count or not. What I do know is that I feel robbed of one of the better-earned victories I've had. Rare are the times when a team can go 3v5 for 35 minutes of a game against 4 solid carries and a high-tier support and win.
The fact that they quit right as we were finishing off the fountain made me feel all good inside, but the fact that we didn't get a win really is a travesty.
Alas, it's not like the Beta stats will carry over into the final release, so this is all just practice anyway. I'll always have the replay.
Gully State
Member
I hope that W/L ratios can be reset and divided into seasons. A nice reset every once would be good for player morale.
Yeah, another wasted 30mins of my life in solo MM. Why do people even join a game if they are just going to quit immediately? I really like this game and I'm starting to get the hang of it, but I'm not going to play solo anymore. Just gotta hope that my friends get invited to the beta soon..
Technosteve
Banned
mine is hovering around 50 w / 60 l
i don't feel bad, match making should be 50/50 when done right........ but this is dota ;_;
dorkimoe
Member
thats actually a good idea. The season thing. Also im still in love with that mercenary matchmaking idea. If you queue solo you only get people who queue solo. Ill wait an extra 5-10 minutes for a game to get into one thats somewhat fair
also for the love of god add the concede option
Technosteve
Banned
it's called siting at the fountain and alt tabing on to gaf
good for bad players' morale*
Gully State
Member
My thought is that matchmaking should put you in a fair fight when done right. Winning however is up to how you and your team perform. What I mean is that having a losing record but all your matches are fairly close is way more indicative of proper matchmaking than rolling half your opponents while being rolled the other half.
Even bad players need good morale damnit..
>pick shadow fiend
>turtle 30 minutes
>get him skadi, treads, helm, manta, butterfly and bkb
Well done Quantic.
Spirit Breaker and Sand King. Maximum testosterone.
Technosteve
Banned
Yeah Dota needs baseball stats yeah.....
nerf the SHIT out of phoenix and make pit lord a bit more interesting to play
Gully State
Member
My point is that matchmaking shouldn't be about setting up games so that everyone has a .500 record no matter what. It should be about putting people in competitive games.
Also, DOTA2 already keeps track of quite a bit of stats as it is. (GPM, XP/Min, Last hits/Denials, etc..).
Fuck no. Keep those stats hidden. I don't need a bunch of "my kdr is better than yours im playing carry noob"
Schweinehund
Member
That's pretty neat.
It's unfortunate to see valve's trademarking of DoTA impeding the original wc3 community and its game... /s
I would like to see some more aghanim effects on some heroes. Would be neat to see one on Kunkka.
I'm hovering around +15 for win/losses, but most of the time I've been playing the game I've been +5/-5. Queuing with others will get you way more wins if that is what you're into. Don't sweat it if you're not breaking even.
throwawayname
Member
Now I know why CM is picked in every game
Rather than resetting lifetime win/losses (they should when the game leaves Beta, but that's it), I'd rather they included more recent results:
- 20-30 this month
- 10-8 this week
- 5-1 today
Lifetime stats and hero aggregates are cool, I end up wondering how I'm doing of late, more than cumulative wins and losses.
I imagine once the stat APIs start showing up, the community will take it and run.
SteveWinwood
Member
Finding videos of people playing dota on youtube with not the worst songs in history blaring over them is really hard.
Gully State
Member
Yeah that's what I meant to say. None of your lifetime stats are deleted but they can be segregated by X period of time or Y number of games played. That way you can see the things you're improving upon as well as the things that look like you need to work on.
Togglesworlh
Banned
If you're always put in evenly matched fights, then odds are you're going to have around a 50% win ratio, anyway.
Matchmaking has never worked in a way that forces you to have a 50% ratio. It matches (or at least attempts to match) you up against similarly skilled players. The ratio is a
That is its purpose.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that matchmaking's purpose was to ensure a 50% ratio. Moreover, the system is not perfect, and, even now with the beta growing larger and larger in terms of playerbase, there still aren't enough people to make it work as close to perfect as is possible given any matchmaking algorithm out there. If that's all your issue is - that it isn't perfect - then I invite you to find a way to improve the algorithm that chooses your opponents. Someone out there will hire you for it!
God that turtle phase was boring to watch.
Technosteve
Banned
Question for you luke, matchmaking for Dota. I know that Halo Starcraft 2 and maybe company of hero uses an ELO ranking system it builds a over all ranking of your skill and the goal is to match you where you are in a situation to lose more then you win because it will progressively match you with better and better players until you lose. But for Dota your level can really differ from hero to hero especially in single draft were you might be force to play an unfamiliar hero.
What do you think Valve is doing to rank each player when they don't know what hero you will play in all pick mode. Single draft might give them a way to predict skill. Do you think they are just empirically looking at your "baseball stats" and ranking you that way?
Is that what the level system is going to be?
Gully State
Member
I was responding to the following quote..which I respectfully don't entirely agree with especially in DOTA when people complain about how mm results in either rolling an opponent or being rolled. I don't claim to have the answer to the problem nor did I imply it. I'm just saying that in an ideal matchmaking system, a .500 record for all doesn't necessarily show that it's working properly.
It's tough because just about everything gets disliked by this community.
Not sure how StarCraft handles it, but these systems usually aren't designed to have you lose more than you win, but rather focus players in on an even split between wins and losses.
Halo 2 used an ELO system, Halo 3 relied on Trueskill, but it was a modified version of Trueskill designed to create a more "natural" feeling progression - one of the upshots of Trueskill is that it can rapidly assess how "good" of a player you are and begin matching you there - in Halo 3 we throttled that back, creating a sense of progression.
In Halo: Reach, we used Trueskill as it was intended to be used, a pure matchmaking system where it was focused on finding the best (most competitive, best quality of service) match for a player. Trueskill, presumably like ELO, is trying to dial you in at a .500 win-rate. Players, as it happens, don't like to win half of their games. In fact, I posit that if you ask players what a bad night of any competitive game is, winning half (or losing half of your games) would typically be described as a shitty night of gaming.
I don't have any direct insight into what Valve is doing with DOTA2 matchmaking.
However, were I to guess, Valve has players use self-selection to initially place them in a pool (presumably from that choice at the beginning of the game, where some ELO/Trueskill /(let's just call it ValveSkill since I'm not sure if it's proprietary or not) begins matchmaking you in that Tier.
That self-selected metric is probably obsolesced pretty rapidly by ValveSkill. Then when teams are formed (I'm treating this as the simple, solo queue case), ValveSkill is actually building "teams" it thinks are reasonable and competitive.
Even if ValveSkill was just a scan of Tier (bucketed into 3 groups Low/Med/High) and a cross-section of Wins for those players (You can check player win totals pre-game by bringing up the Scoreboard, and typically you'll see pretty similar Win Totals across both teams) that could result in ok-enough games at this stage.
When people queue as a group, they are clearly manipulating the group up and down through three (player-facing) skill buckets (parenthetical is because they probably have way more subdivisions of skill than 3). E.g., I party with someone in High Tier and they usually pull me up into that game, if I solo queue I match with the other peasants in Medium.
How sticky my ValveSkill number/value is is really interesting. Trueskill is famously sticky, leading to players feeling "stuck" at level X. I'm guessing ValveSkill will have more migration between skill buckets, since DOTA has such a steep learning curve.
How/(if?) they will handle MM values per game mode (CM/SD/AP/???), per player, per Hero played is really interesting. I think because of the point in a game where a Hero is chosen (post matchmaking), there aren't super obvious solutions for how to approximate what a player's actual ValveSkill is per hero and take that into account.
It's not really my place to conjecture how they should/could do that in the thread though. I'm sure if they are interested in it, they have some Top Men over there doing it.
Togglesworlh
Banned
But that specific quote is true. Matchmaking, when done right, will result in evenly matched games every time*. As you improve, so too do your enemies. 50% win ratio is exactly what should happen.
*Of course, that's never going to be entirely true, because the algorithms aren't perfect. C'est la vie.
SteveWinwood
Member
YouTube purgegamers
Also, the boss guide to venomancer
Zomg how 2 outlane nooobz awesomez
Technosteve
Banned
Thanks for the response Luke, I think one way to solve a team que would be how WoW Arena does it. Force people in to teams and make that group play separate from general matchmaking. I wonder if this game will have an xp loot mechanic
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