Yes you would. LoL has a concede option and it probably gets used on 30% of the matches.
What's not fun is having a team with no kills against a team with like 10 kills each 20 min into the game. Then proceeding to play that match for another 30 min because the enemy team is taking forever to destroy your ancient.
Yeah, it is. A few days ago I played a game where the kill count was 23-2 in favor of the other team before the rax were even killed. I wasted 10 minutes sitting in the pool which could have been used to find another game.
I completely agree that sometimes teams are too quick to concede, but honestly that's why it's a vote. It's EXTREMELY rare that a team will make a comeback that all five of them have no inkling could take place, especially in a pub game. Having it as a vote will allow more experienced players to kill the concede if they see a chance for a comeback though.
Edit: It's also really annoying to sit through a game where you have a terrible array of heroes because none of the pubs would pick anything but their personal favorites, instead of having a proper team composition.
This is true, however a lot of people concede just because they don't want to play with certain people cause their being Bad Mannered, defeatist, etc. Even teams with terrible arrays of heroes are still winnable, we constantly have terrible hero compositions because we random in our Matchmaking games, and we just outplay.
There are variety of excuses people make as to why they lose games, but it mostly comes down to how you play the match, and very very rarely to your hero picks.
If you put in a concede option and it requires 5 votes, someone who thinks the game isn't over will just refuse the vote and your forced to play regardless. Same thing that happened with HoN before they changed it to 5-15, 4-30.
I do have to say that I really like how they set up leaves. Only punishing the first person to leave is a smart move. That way if nobody else wants to waste their time they can just leave and find a new game.
This I'm cool with. If you want to quit super early it would require everyone in on it. Then later on if things are going bad you can quit out even if you have one random player that just doesn't get that it's over and never will.
It is a must especially when games can last to an upward of over an hour. Also if we are losing 20-5 due to feeders on my team i will just AFK in base till we lose, no way i'm getting leaver/abadonment status.
This is true, however a lot of people concede just because they don't want to play with certain people cause their being Bad Mannered, defeatist, etc. Even teams with terrible arrays of heroes are still winnable, we constantly have terrible hero compositions because we random in our Matchmaking games, and we just outplay.
There are variety of excuses people make as to why they lose games, but it mostly comes down to how you play the match, and very very rarely to your hero picks.
If you put in a concede option and it requires 5 votes, someone who thinks the game isn't over will just refuse the vote and your forced to play regardless. Same thing that happened with HoN before they changed it to 5-15, 4-30.
Also, the 5 vote requirement is great because I use it to punish bad manners. If they want to concede after being an ass I will purposely fail it because they were assholes. Still, the benefit outweighs the cost on that one as far as I am concerned.
The hero selection at the start is so counterintuitive to creating good team compositions. The focus is on visual presentation and picking YOUR hero with the lore tidbits while only giving you one minute without any obvious means of communicating your picks to your teammates (no right-click ghost pick or default your text entry to the little corner text box). Playing with pubs with this menu is going to give you a mismatched team 4 out of 5 times
People are used to better implementations. Ideally, the current hero you have clicked, but not selected, should be the hero you default select if time runs out instead of randoming. Either that or use right-click to ghost-pick. Having all player hero selections lined up horizontally on the top of the screen does not clearly indicate what side you're playing on, or even highlight what your player slot is. If everyone loads quickly after finding a match you are looking at only having a minute for this possible team coordination. The text box doesn't recap hero picks, whether from your own team or the enemy's, and especially doesn't indicate randoms. Is hero swapping implemented? Did they have to swap PCs in the international tournament?
There's some games that are clearly lost. You can come back easily if you got a team behind you, and with dust in the game it makes you a threat no matter what, but when faceless void gets a godlike in 15 mins, or brood mother knocking out your bottom racks at the 16 min mark, it's kind of hard to come back when you lost all that in a short period of time. Playing 60 + minute games can be exhausting, and that's why some people just quit early.
Aesthet1c said:
Thanks vocab.
Will the tower change to attack you if you are attacking a hero under it?
The "lame duck scenario" -- where you know you've lost but still have to play until the end -- is an inherent design fail of DOTA, but I'm not sure you how fix it. Increase gold from tower kills? Upgraded creeps after each tower kill? Idk.
You'd be amazed what type of situations you can come back from, Me, Swiftlame, and MRMR, watched a game where a team came back from mega creeps and 2 towers on Ancient, facing a team that still had secondary towers up, to winning the game.
The problem with the concede option is that it indefinitely breeds a defeatist attitude, if one lane loses teams automatically assume the game is over and start scapegoating people for the loss and begging for the immediate concede vote, instead of just playing the game out. Of course if your getting stomped 20-2 the game is over, but you only have yourself and your teammates to blame.
Yeah, that's an incredibly weak argument. Just because some people can make a comeback in those tough situations doesn't mean everyone can. And if the entire team is ready to just give up, which is going to happen regardless of whether or not the option exists, they're completely unlikely to make that comeback.
Even teams with terrible arrays of heroes are still winnable, we constantly have terrible hero compositions because we random in our Matchmaking games, and we just outplay.
That's great for you that you're that good! I don't give a shit. I'm not that good, and neither is the team of people I regularly play with. Why should I have to suffer just because you're better than me? I really, really like this game. I don't like wasting an extra 15-20 minutes because there's no concede option.
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
Also, the 5 vote requirement is great because I use it to punish bad manners. If they want to concede after being an ass I will purposely fail it because they were assholes. Still, the benefit outweighs the cost on that one as far as I am concerned.
If you dont pick anything the game just goes on and you can still talk / organize picks, the timer is just for the match countdown, not a timer for how long you have to pick a hero.
Togglesworlh said:
That's great for you that you're that good! I don't give a shit. I'm not that good, and neither is the team of people I regularly play with. Why should I have to suffer just because you're better than me? I really, really like this game. I don't like wasting an extra 15-20 minutes because there's no concede option.
So when you can concede you like to waste an extra 15-20 minutes to make that asshole suffer more Togglesworlh?
And I have to agree, Sebulon3k you have weak arguments, I mean you're too good, make so many comebacks and you make us suffer just because you're better than me. Get out of here.
Worst is the games when you're clearly lost, holed up in your base, and the other team just wants to fill out the rest of their builds for shits and giggles. Ya thanks jackass, I'm happy you got your divine rapier and wasted 20 minutes of our lives.
I tried Ancient Apparition and Weaver today. Really sucked with Weaver because I didn't realize til right near the end that walking through enemies with the W attack damages them. I thought I was supposed to use W to sneak up on them, unleash my Q, then attack.
I did okay as Ancient Apparition, but I made some obvious mistakes. His ultimate took me a bit to get the hang of and understand.
Also, this is more of a group effort. When I'm playing with my friends, we have one pub. He's a complete and total jackass the whole time. Blames us for his failures. Refuses to fight with the team. Yells at us constantly. You better believe that when he tries to surrender, we're going to vote no. He deserves it.
I believe a concede system should be in game, but 15 minutes is too early unless the score is 20-1 or the other team already has a rax. Comebacks do happen and the other team can get arrogant and start throwing. I would like to see a set of parameters that have to be met before a team can initiate a concede (i.e. X kill difference, X gold difference, 2 sets of rax down, after 30 minutes etc)
That is normally how it plays out though. Normally when I get the 20 minute surrender, the game is already over. Either someone left, the team is fighting between themselves, or they just got completely trashed. If the game is still reasonable, you may get one who wants to quit, but normally the others will put it down and they'll stick in. It works out pretty natural.
I'd be down for 20 minutes, but I think 25-30 are too long. I rather get into a game quicker where people actually want to play, rather than diddle around in another for an extra 10-15minutes. Even though 2 player are just afk in the pool.
And I have to agree, Sebulon3k you have weak arguments, I mean you're too good, make to many comebacks and you make us suffer just because you're better than me. Get out of here.
Okay, here's something I'm still trying to grasp. How do you know when it's a good time for your team to go after Roshan? Should you all be at a certain level or what?
Also, what's the best way to decide who takes the item you get from killing Roshan (the one that revives you if you die)?
Okay, here's something I'm still trying to grasp. How do you know when it's a good time for your team to go after Roshan? Should you all be at a certain level or what?
Also, what's the best way to decide who takes the item you get from killing Roshan (the one that revives you if you die)?
Okay, here's something I'm still trying to grasp. How do you know when it's a good time for your team to go after Roshan? Should you all be at a certain level or what?
Also, what's the best way to decide who takes the item you get from killing Roshan (the one that revives you if you die)?
The best times to Roshan are when a.) you have just won a big teamfight and aren't too low on HP to kill him, or b.) you have pushed out your lanes and your enemy is busy protecting their tier 2/3 towers. Alternatively c.) when your team is busy fighting their team and you have a hero who can solo Roshan like Lycanthrope or Ursa, but neither of those are in the game at the time.
Are you being serious? That's ridiculous. It is a statement clearly made in jest and even if it wasn't, it would never affect you, unless you're one of those assholes, which based on your own proclamation of skill and optimism, you couldn't possibly be, because you're the kind of guy who likes to try even when there doesn't appear to be much hope. There are legitimate reasons for this feature to exist, and there are no good reasons for it not to exist. Having no counter-argument is not an excuse to ignore something someone says.
I'm for a concede option, but I don't think it should be as trivial as cutting off the game 20 minutes in, outside of a total stomp. With all the data the game keeps tabs on, there should be a means to gauge a suitable instance for allowing an early concede.
My main idea for a concede is one that's worked into the fabric of the game itself: Glyph of Decimation. Slot it below Fortification, shade it with some manner of hazardous colour, and lock it until a combination of conditions are met: being down 4-6 towers, having lost a set of barracks (this would naturally be prioritized very highly), being behind in kills by a significant margin, etc. Once unlocked and pressed by someone on the team, the other team members can vote for or against its use. If a majority (no less than 4/5, ideally) is achieved, the Glyph activates its effect: All friendly buildings and creeps are reduced to a tenth of their former strength.
The advantages are fairly clear. The enemy team can't be scummy and draw out the game for the sake of griefing, because the creeps will finish it if they don't. The endgame accelerates drastically and the losing team doesn't have to wait long for the game to conclude, and the match still has something of a proper ending instead of an abrupt fade to black.
Why drag it out at all at that point? Seems silly.
EDIT: In other, more important matters, is PlayDOTA the only option when looking for good hero guides? They only have two for Dazzle, and the latest one is over a year and a half old. I already learned quite a bit from reading it, but I know sometimes the metagame changes so that the individual hero might change, too. U:
i don't mind how hon implements concede, but it still breeds a defeatist attitude if you're constantly conceding at fifteen minutes just because you're down 10 kills. Some people in hon gaf tend to spam the concede button just because they're not having fun.
Are you being serious? That's ridiculous. It is a statement clearly made in jest and even if it wasn't, it would never affect you, unless you're one of those assholes, which based on your own proclamation of skill and optimism, you couldn't possibly be, because you're the kind of guy who likes to try even when there doesn't appear to be much hope. There are legitimate reasons for this feature to exist, and there are no good reasons for it not to exist. Having no counter-argument is not an excuse to ignore something someone says.
You defended the statement you were stating is purely in jest, and I don't think that they shouldn't put in a concede feature, I just don't like the defeatist attitude it breeds, it's necessary in situations where your getting stomped, but outside of those situations I don't think it's needed. There is a lot to learn in games where your down and have to farm / ward / assist etc under pressure, and in those situations you'd probably concede cause people assume the game is lost.
I never said the function shouldn't be put in, just needs to be carefully implemented, or you'll get people who "zone out" of games without even assessing why the game is going poorly or what can be done to win, because they know they have a concede function which lets them immediately go join another lobby. Yes you can say not everyone wants to try hard or is as optimistic as me, but those same people that constantly mash the concede button are the same type of people that will post that their stuck in a certain rating range because of reasons other then themselves.
I was playing Devil's Adv
Togglesworlh said:
EDIT: In other, more important matters, is PlayDOTA the only option when looking for good hero guides? They only have two for Dazzle, and the latest one is over a year and a half old. I already learned quite a bit from reading it, but I know sometimes the metagame changes so that the individual hero might change, too. U:
In addition to the reasons I've given, you've never been in a match of LoL where the enemy team gives up after losing a couple of towers, denying you an endgame entirely? Or a game where a teammate (or several) want to end it at the first sign of adversity? It's to the point that I hate queuing with randoms anymore, because the cheap concession helps create an atmosphere of expectant and instant gratification, "Things are all of a sudden hard, GAME OVER LET'S MAKE ANOTHER". So yes, drag it out like this, because making concession cheap and easy is solving a problem with another problem. The nature of the game is a team game, it needn't cater to the "fuck you I've got mine" crowd.
It was a statement made in jest, and I defended it because I have actually done it before. Very rarely, but, yes, I have done it. I am not ashamed. Sometimes you get that guy on your team who, always in allchat, because he can't handle being mature, calls his entire team scrubs, insults them to no end with any number of vulgar phrases, and finally starts feeding just to get it over faster.
Nobody likes that guy. Ever. Not even the other team, who might be full of trashtalkers. I have no problem with trashtalk in general (though it can go too far), but when someone's trashtalking their own team? Anything's game, baby. Me and my friends then proceed to just mess around and enjoy ourselves. It becomes a different kind of game, but still an enjoyable one.
Sometimes you also get that guy who insults his own team and then he wins. I think that's worse, because then he thinks he won it single-handedly. That guy.
I would never grief someone undeserving. Except in an MMO, because that is part of what makes MMOs great, but that's neither here nor there.
and I don't think that they shouldn't put in a concede feature, I just don't like the defeatist attitude it breeds, it's necessary in situations where your getting stomped, but outside of those situations I don't think it's needed. There is a lot to learn in games where your down and have to farm / ward / assist etc under pressure, and in those situations you'd probably concede cause people assume the game is lost.
I never said the function shouldn't be put in, just needs to be carefully implemented, or you'll get people who "zone out" of games without even assessing why the game is going poorly or what can be done to win, because they know they have a concede function which lets them immediately go join another lobby. Yes you can say not everyone wants to try hard or is as optimistic as me, but those same people that constantly mash the concede button are the same type of people that will post that their stuck in a certain rating range because of reasons other then themselves.
I would agree that sometimes people give up too early, including me, as much as I try not to, but I absolutely don't agree that having an option to concede is going to make it worse in any way. Those people are going to give up regardless. Without a concede function, everyone on their team is worse for it, because they're not only fighting the other team, which undoubtedly has an advantage - they're also fighting the defeatist on their own team.
Well that is an answer. Sometimes I don't consider the obvious. U:
Botolf said:
In addition to the reasons I've given, you've never been in a match of LoL where the enemy team gives up after losing a couple of towers, denying you an endgame entirely? Or a game where a teammate (or several) want to end it at the first sign of adversity? It's to the point that I hate queuing with randoms anymore, because the cheap concession helps create an atmosphere of expectant and instant gratification, "Things are all of a sudden hard, GAME OVER LET'S MAKE ANOTHER". So yes, drag it out like this, because making concession cheap and easy is solving a problem with another problem. The nature of the game is a team game, it needn't cater to the "fuck you I've got mine" crowd.
Yes, I've been in that situation in both LoL and HoN. It's a little blue-ballin', but I don't really give a shit if I finish or not. If it's a win, it's a win. Why should I care if I get to blow up their base? There's no reason to drag it out unless you hate yourself if you're losing or the other team if you're winning.
I'd agree with the "no concede" if I hadn't played hundreds and hundreds of dota games where one of the teams just stops caring, causing the rest of the game to be busy work while we go through the motions. It happens far too often not to have a concede. If it it causes people to give up early when they have a chance to win, that's far better than wasting your and everyone elses time when it's actually clear cut.
Yes you would. LoL has a concede option and it probably gets used on 30% of the matches.
What's not fun is having a team with no kills against a team with like 10 kills each 20 min into the game. Then proceeding to play that match for another 30 min because the enemy team is taking forever to destroy your ancient.
this is completely wrong. I'd say at least 70% of games end in concede, if not close to 80%. especially because barracks actually respawn in league. any games ending before 50 minutes usually ends in a concede, because it's so hard to break the last 2 base towers in league. by saying 30% of games end in concede, you're saying the other 70% of games end when the other side loses their whole base.
this is completely wrong. I'd say at least 70% of games end in concede, if not close to 80%. especially because barracks actually respawn in league. any games ending before 50 minutes usually ends in a concede, because it's so hard to break the last 2 base towers in league. by saying 30% of games end in concede, you're saying the other 70% of games end when the other side loses their whole base.
Obviously I have no stats because the game doesn't track it for me, buuuut I'd say under half of my games in LoL ended with surrenders.
It definitely happened more often in HoN, too, for whatever reason. Probably because the game is so ugly it makes people more prone to depression and/or anger. (Also HoN/Dota lasts longer than LoL on average.)
I would agree that sometimes people give up too early, including me, as much as I try not to, but I absolutely don't agree that having an option to concede is going to make it worse in any way. Those people are going to give up regardless. Without a concede function, everyone on their team is worse for it, because they're not only fighting the other team, which undoubtedly has an advantage - they're also fighting the defeatist on their own team.
Obviously I have no stats because the game doesn't track it for me, buuuut I'd say under half of my games in LoL ended with surrenders.
It definitely happened more often in HoN, too, for whatever reason. Probably because the game is so ugly it makes people more prone to depression and/or anger. (Also HoN/Dota lasts longer than LoL on average.)
