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Dutch state secretary Blokhuis of Health, Welfare and Sport said that loot boxes and gambling-like constructs in video games are one's "own responsibility", with a focus on education and parenting. No games will be banned. He does say that gambling-like constructs in games should be limited or abolished, but this is not something that is the responsibility of the government.

Source.

There is still an investigation by the gambling authority going on, but it most likely will result in the same: no interference by the government. This is a continuation of previous policy, as during the Manhunt 2 "controversy", the government explicitly indicated nothing will be banned and that people have their own responsibility playing these games.

 

[Max_Po]

EA must be happy.

 

[Helios]

Good, stop waiting for daddy government to solve all your issues.

 

[Miles708]

I think an acceptable middle-ground could be labeling games with lootboxes and microtransactions as 18+ .

That said, not using psychological tricks to take your money would be nice.

 

[spons]

I think an acceptable middle-ground could be labeling games with lootboxes and microtransactions as 18+ .

That said, not using psychological tricks to take your money would be nice.

16/18+ games can only be sold to people older than 16 in the Netherlands. Because at that point you are not a minor anymore, it's your own responsibility. I agree with you that gambling constructs should be for adults only, and that is really where the Dutch government is going for I assume. Same with Manhunt 2, which was 18+, so you're an adult and not presumed to be infantile.

 

[iorek21]

As much as I have microtransactions, it’s better that governments don’t get involved in it

We should vote with our wallets, no need for the State to mess with what we should consume or not

 

[brian0057]

Good.

 

[Handy Fake]

The Dutch are pretty liberally minded over everything and anything, hardly a surprise.

 

[FMXVII]

So much for going Dutch.

 

[Shifty]

We should vote with our wallets, no need for the State to mess with what we should consume or not

And thus continues the status quo, because wallets aren't nearly loud enough to actually send the message that icky psychological tactics have no place in the medium.

 

[Fuz]

We should vote with our wallets, no need for the State to mess with what we should consume or not

This doesn't work, because we're being programmed.

It's TOTALLY the state's responsibility.

 

[FMXVII]

This doesn't work, because we're being programmed.

It's TOTALLY the state's responsibility.

It has gotten to the point that whenever I see "EA" written out, I hear it in my head as spoken in Chinese bray-all.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Letting your kid rack up hundreds of dollars in loot boxes isn’t EA’s fault.

The games need to be labeled and rated properly though.

 

[Fbh]

Good, I support personal freedom and responsibility.

The only form of regulation I'd be ok with is regarding children. I still think loot boxes and gambling should at very least have a larger effect on the rating .

 

[InterMusketeer]

I somewhat agree, but it's not that clear to most customers what games do and don't have micro-transactions and loot boxes. I don't think there's a clear PEGI label for that, for example. This stuff should be taken more seriously and regulated in some way. Right now it's the wild west when it comes to MTX. They can be added later on (CoD, CTR) or changed drastically (SWBF2), and governments shouldn't allow that to just happen. If customers are informed and aware of these mechanics before they buy the game, and the nature of the monetization doesn't change as time passes, I think it's fine to leave it up to parents to take responsibility for what their kids play.

 

[Fuz]

Good, I support personal freedom and responsibility.

It's not "Personal freedom" anymore when they have ARMIES of psychologists and marketers¹ studying the best way to wire our brains into spending and falling into those traps.


¹ the scum of the Earth.

 

[FMXVII]

It's not "Personal freedom" anymore when they have ARMIES of psychologists and marketers¹ studying the best way to wire our brains into spending and falling into those traps.


¹ the scum of the Earth.

Most people who aren't aware that they are affected directly by such things tend to be oblivious.

It sounds a lot like tautology... but, once again, that's the psychologists scripting it.

Gotta make those who aren't addicted believe that they are strong, independent gamers, after all.

 

[spons]

I somewhat agree, but it's not that clear to most customers what games do and don't have micro-transactions and loot boxes. I don't think there's a clear PEGI label for that, for example. This stuff should be taken more seriously and regulated in some way. Right now it's the wild west when it comes to MTX. They can be added later on (CoD, CTR) or changed drastically (SWBF2), and governments shouldn't allow that to just happen. If customers are informed and aware of these mechanics before they buy the game, and the nature of the monetization doesn't change as time passes, I think it's fine to leave it up to parents to take responsibility for what their kids play.

PEGI label should be there, absolutely. But you are implying most adult gamers have undergone a lobotomy and can't recognize a lootbox or microtransaction before they insert their credit card information.

 

[Gargus]

I think an acceptable middle-ground could be labeling games with lootboxes and microtransactions as 18+ .

That said, not using psychological tricks to take your money would be nice.

There are no psychological tricks. I have never bought anything in my life ever, never spent money without knowing i was spending money. Everytime I spent money, regardless of how foolish it was I did so of my own free will. No one has ever tricked me into spending money somehow and I didn't realize it. And its damn near impossible in a game because you have to verify you're going to spend money by first adding a payment method, then you have to approve it. You know full well you're going to spend money and it's up to you if it's worth it.

To me there is nothing wrong with loot boxes. It's no different than buying a pack of pokemon cards, a blind box toy, trading cards, or a lottery ticket. Even a bubble gum machine is taking a chance you'll get a flavor you like out of it.

And for people who say they prey on children all I have to say is that it's the parent's fault if a child spends money. They are a child they aren't supposed to have access to bank account numbers or credit cards.

Lazy, mindless, unwilling and stupid people want rules for this kind of shit because they dont want to think for themselves, they dont want to be bothered to parent their children, they want to blame someone else for their dumb mistakes, and they want someone else to do the work for them.

 

[-Arcadia-]

As much as I want to get rid of these, they’re right.

if you’re a moron that can’t stop spending hundreds of dollars on stupid crap, instead of seeing the game is worthless, and leaving it to fail, that’s on you.

 

[InterMusketeer]

PEGI label should be there, absolutely. But you are implying most adult gamers have undergone a lobotomy and can't recognize a lootbox or microtransaction before they insert their credit card information.

Even if you never pay for a single lootbox, it does shape your game experience. Usually for the worst. People should be made aware of that before they buy the game. I don't think that's any different from games with other types of content (violence, drugs etc.) that people may not want to engage with.

 

[Dunki]

This is the only right decision

 

[FMXVII]

There are no psychological tricks. I have never bought anything in my life ever, never spent money without knowing i was spending money. Everytime I spent money, regardless of how foolish it was I did so of my own free will. No one has ever tricked me into spending money somehow and I didn't realize it. And its damn near impossible in a game because you have to verify you're going to spend money by first adding a payment method, then you have to approve it. You know full well you're going to spend money and it's up to you if it's worth it.

To me there is nothing wrong with loot boxes. It's no different than buying a pack of pokemon cards, a blind box toy, trading cards, or a lottery ticket. Even a bubble gum machine is taking a chance you'll get a flavor you like out of it.

And for people who say they prey on children all I have to say is that it's the parent's fault if a child spends money. They are a child they aren't supposed to have access to bank account numbers or credit cards.

Lazy, mindless, unwilling and stupid people want rules for this kind of shit because they dont want to think for themselves, they dont want to be bothered to parent their children, they want to blame someone else for their dumb mistakes, and they want someone else to do the work for them.

Excellent observations.

Let's bring Marlboro commercials back while we're at it.

"Carcinomapuff, I choose YOU!"

*Carcinomapuff uses Fiberglass*

*Breatheachu is metastasized and unable to escape*

 

[-Arcadia-]

Excellent observations.

Let's bring Marlboro commercials back while we're at it.

"Carcinomapuff, I choose YOU!"

*Carcinomapuff uses Fiberglass*

*Breatheachu is metastasized and unable to escape*

If stupid people want to off themselves with cigarettes, and improve my quality of life by de-clowning things, I’m down for that too.

 

[Spukc]

yeah it's up to the parents to teach their kids not to do crack

 

[FMXVII]

yeah it's up to the parents to teach their kids not to do crack

Yup.

Let the market decide.

 

[Helios]

Remember kids, lootboxes are the same as crack.

 

[FMXVII]

If stupid people want to off themselves with cigarettes, and improve my quality of life by de-clowning things, I’m down for that too.

Stupid people, eh?

I keep forgetting that lack of empathy is a hallmark of intelligence.

 

[Paasei]

It's been a long time ago when I last agreed with my government. As much as I hate microtransactions/lootboxes, they are absolutely right. Your own, or parenting, responsibility.

 

[Xenon]

I hate loot boxes from a gaming perspective not a legal one. What if they start examining drop rates in normal play because in a sense that is gambling as well granted with time but still just as addictive.
The big thing they need to do is just make sure the games that have it R rated M.

 

[Tesseract]

based

 

[FMXVII]

I hate loot boxes from a gaming perspective not a legal one. What if they start examining drop rates in normal play because in a sense that is gambling as well granted with time but still just as addictive.
The big thing they need to do is just make sure the games that have it R rated M.

Rated M, for Manipilation?

Rated M, for Microtransactions?

Rated M, for Market Economics?

Rated M, for Moron?

Rated M, for Muh stockholders!

Rated M, for Modern science shows that this shit is exploitable manipulation of flaws in the human psyche?

Why so M?

 

[Petrae]

The video game industry isn’t going to change shit unless forced to do so by governments, so any decision to stay out of it empowers publishers to keep their greedy fat fingers in the wallets of consumers at all times.

That said, this isn’t surprising. Very few governments have an interest in taking the video game industry to task these days. Empty words, useless hearings, and feigned outrage to placate the growing group of people angered by this bullshit are what you’re going to get. Hot air, no action. For every Belgium, you’ll get hundreds of USAs or Englands.

This is the outcome that video game consumers wrought, anyway, It’s what they voted with their wallets for, so the industry is justified in continuing to find ways to exploit these consumers. If they’re dumb enough— and obviously many are dumb enough— to keep throwing millions of dollars at publishers for shit that used to be in games for free or for gambling-driven content, then it’s hard to keep pointing the finger solely at publishers.

 

[Tesseract]

i wish there was gambling in apex legends matches

 

[-Arcadia-]

This is the outcome that video game consumers wrought, anyway, It’s what they voted with their wallets for, so the industry is justified in continuing to find ways to exploit these consumers. If they’re dumb enough— and obviously many are dumb enough— to keep throwing millions of dollars at publishers for shit that used to be in games for free or for gambling-driven content, then it’s hard to keep pointing the finger solely at publishers.

Bingo. People throw all their criticism at these big companies... for making money, but none at the people literally funding such practices. If you want to stop loot boxes, start ‘shaming’ the shit out of people who do this.

Granted, those big companies deserve their own criticism for defiling what gaming is, but those efforts would go nowhere, without the millions happily enabling them.

 

[Phase]

Welp, then slap that adult rating on then.

 

[FMXVII]

Bingo. People throw all their criticism at these big companies... for making money, but none at the people literally funding such practices. If you want to stop loot boxes, start ‘shaming’ the shit out of people who do this.

Granted, those big companies deserve their own criticism for defiling what gaming is, but those efforts would go nowhere, without the millions happily enabling them.

The practices in question (pay for p2p, Dei Wan DLC, etc) weren't exploiting flawed human psyche, though... unless you count abject stupidity as a flaw.

 

[Fbh]

It's not "Personal freedom" anymore when they have ARMIES of psychologists and marketers¹ studying the best way to wire our brains into spending and falling into those traps.


¹ the scum of the Earth.

Yes it is. No one is forcing you to buy anything, and if you really feel you are developing a gambling problem and can't help yourself then it's up to you to take responsibility and either take measures to fix the issue yourself or seek help.
I realized I was developing a problem with alcohol some years ago and took steps to fix it, I didn't whine about how them evil alcohol makers are at fault and how the government should solve all my issues for me.

If marketers are destroying your freedom then, hell, let's ban everything. Let's sell games (or everything, really) in white boxes with the title written in Arial Black and screenshots /trailers/info only available after signing an agreement that you consent to them being shown to you. Let's have political campaigns be the candidate standing in front of a white backgroundfor no more than 5 minutes reading specific and realistic proposals in a monotone voice.

 

[Petrae]

Welp, then slap that adult rating on then.

You’d think that would make the most sense— and, hell, a ratings board like the ESRB could do this without any kind of outside intervention— but not marketing this shit to kids would cost publishers millions of dollars.

Kids these days are very successful at manipulating their parents/guardians for cash. Parents can’t say no; they’re tired after working all day, perhaps two jobs every week, and they’ll gladly pay to keep little Johnny’s mouth shut for a few hours so they can rest. Video game companies KNOW this, and they’re not about to start cutting back on targeting kids, even somewhat.

That’s where the governmental intervention would come into play, but I just don’t see it happening.

 

[RedVIper]

It's not "Personal freedom" anymore when they have ARMIES of psychologists and marketers¹ studying the best way to wire our brains into spending and falling into those traps.


¹ the scum of the Earth.

That's true for everything not just lootboxes.

You would have to ban marketing as a whole if you want companies to stop "tricking" people into spending money.

 

[iorek21]

But almost everything in modern life is designed to be addictive.

Social media is designed for that purpose, smartphones, apps.

Porn is addictive, so is junk food, drugs and lots of other things.

Should we ask for all these things to be prohibited or should we leave the choice of whether using it or not to the people?

Leaving the right of choice in the hands of the State is a very dangerous thing

 

[Spukc]

But almost everything in modern life is designed to be addictive.

Social media is designed for that purpose, smartphones, apps.

Porn is addictive, so is junk food, drugs and lots of other things.

Should we ask for all these things to be prohibited or should we leave the choice of whether using it or not to the people?

Leaving the right of choice in the hands of the State is a very dangerous thing

yeah let kids decide if they want to smoke or drink or gamble

 

[iorek21]

yeah let kids decide if they want to smoke or drink or gamble

Well, kids are under their parents care, are they not?

Parents should be more attentive of what their kids do online, and that’s that

 

[Miles708]

There are no psychological tricks. I have never bought anything in my life ever, never spent money without knowing i was spending money. Everytime I spent money, regardless of how foolish it was I did so of my own free will. No one has ever tricked me into spending money somehow and I didn't realize it. And its damn near impossible in a game because you have to verify you're going to spend money by first adding a payment method, then you have to approve it. You know full well you're going to spend money and it's up to you if it's worth it.

To me there is nothing wrong with loot boxes. It's no different than buying a pack of pokemon cards, a blind box toy, trading cards, or a lottery ticket. Even a bubble gum machine is taking a chance you'll get a flavor you like out of it.

And for people who say they prey on children all I have to say is that it's the parent's fault if a child spends money. They are a child they aren't supposed to have access to bank account numbers or credit cards.

Lazy, mindless, unwilling and stupid people want rules for this kind of shit because they dont want to think for themselves, they dont want to be bothered to parent their children, they want to blame someone else for their dumb mistakes, and they want someone else to do the work for them.

I understand your reasoning, but that's because you are a careful spender (even with things you eventually regret buying) and, essentially, you know what you're doing.

But this is the point, don't you think? For 18+ games, I agree with you 100%: I don't like loot boxes, I decide to not buy those games, I hope they don't put them in games I like, and that's, essentially, it.

But for 6+ or 12+ games? You say parents should be careful with their children, and again, I agree with you 100%.
Problem is, "parents" are not tech people, we're not there yet, and maybe they don't even know what a loot box is or, heck, even that microtransaction exist as a concept.
This is my experience and it's not representative of everyone of course, but my parents are not able to use a smartphone beyond the absolute bare minimum (call, photo, mayyyyybe whatsapp) and so are my friend's parents. They care, but they just don't know what's going on. Children are MUCH more literate and capable, when it comes to technology, the gap is massive.

The point of the discussion is, I think, to be able to make an informed choice.
To do it, give people the info they need. PEGI should do it, ESRB should do it. But if they don't, and if there are reasons to think that publishers are acting in bad faith, then (and only then) government regulation is required.

 

[Psykodad]

The Dutch are pretty liberally minded over everything and anything, hardly a surprise.

The government's also corrupt as hell.

But they have a point, in this case.

 

[EightBit Man]

The big problem I have with this, is that there's a limit to self-responsibility. At some point we're at the mercy of outside influences and circumstances. And these neoliberal corporate fucks know and make use of that.

 

[Abriael_GN]

It's not "Personal freedom" anymore when they have ARMIES of psychologists and marketers¹ studying the best way to wire our brains into spending and falling into those traps.
¹ the scum of the Earth.

If you let others "wire your brain" it's your responsibility and you have no one else to blame than yourself. If you allow others to run your "personal freedom" you shouldn't complain that you don't have it.

Maybe you should face your own responsibilities instead of expecting others to take care of them for you.

Also, this is for you.

Good on the Dutch.

 

[Fuz]

If you let others "wire your brain" it's your responsibility and you have no one else to blame than yourself

Evidently, you have no fucking idea of what you're talking about.

 

[Miles708]

If you let others "wire your brain" it's your responsibility and you have no one else to blame than yourself. If you allow others to run your "personal freedom" you shouldn't complain that you don't have it.

Maybe you should face your own responsibilities instead of expecting others to take care of them for you.

Also, this is for you.

Good on the Dutch.

I think Abriael_GN could have a point, if you think the advertising industry is worth several billion dollars. Clearly, these strategies are working.

 

[jono51]

imagine not being able to stop yourself from buying barbie dress up lootboxes in a game

like, turn off the game and go play slots where you can win some dolla