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[DragoonKain]

I believe strongly that while there are many older supremacists and extremists who are too far gone and can't be changed, the younger ones can still be salvaged. Many of them become part of these hate groups because they are confused, angry, vulnerable and fall in with the wrong crowd and are brainwashed. If someone's heart is still good and they have a good conscience, they have the potential to change. I actually know two people personally who fell in with a kind of a Neo Nazi crowd when they were in their mid teens. They were impoverished and were poorly educated, and eventually they saw how stupid it all was and they are the nicest people you will ever meet and are strong advocates for social equality. One of the things that helped change them was being forced to move into an area that was more diverse and had a larger population of minorities ironically. Being around people of different ethnicities made them realize that there's nothing wrong with these people. I asked them if they would have changed had they not made that move and they tell me very honestly that they may not have. They very well could have been pushed farther and farther into the dark depths of racism and hatred.

I've seen articles and documentaries about rehabilitating young kids who were kidnapped and forced into ISIS training cells, and how difficult of a task it is, but some of them have gone on to live normal lives. It's a very tough situation. The experts who work with these kids say that if they were shunned from society because of the horrible things they did, then they would have been lost forever, and it actually is what ISIS wants. They want these kids to be shunned and neglected as "damaged goods" because then they'll have nowhere else to go besides back to ISIS. I think the same logic can apply to supremacists groups.

My question is, where is the point of no return? Just because I know two people personally who changed, there are tons out there who don't change. Is it worth the effort to try and help these people change or is it too difficult of a task to pull off with such a wide reach? How much effort should be made to try and reach out to people and help them change?

Just wanted everyone's take.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

There's no no point of return. Exposure helps a lot but you actually have to, ya know, have a rehabilitation plan.

 

[TetraGenesis]

This is a great topic. I'm gonna need some time to formulate my own thoughts on it, but I look forward to reading everyone's perspectives.

 

[kswiston]

If they are at the point that they are attending rallies (and aren't young children dragged there by their parents), the odds of rehabilitation aren't all that great. If we're talking about a 15 year old gater typing angry messages on 4Chan, then sure, the effort is worthwhile. Plenty of people grow out of their parents' or friends' ideals in their late teens/early 20s.

There's no real point of no return if we are talking about individuals. I'm sure that there are 60 year olds out there that saw the error of their ways for one reason or another. I think it is more a matter of likelihood. Will the majority of the 30% of Americans who make up Trump's diehard base change their mind? No.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...-changes-his-mind_us_580cda19e4b000d0b1572f5f

 

[Torquill]

On an individual basis, not a lost cause.

http://didyouknowfacts.com/black-man-convinced-200-people-quit-kkk/

 

[jdstorm]

As much effort as a person is willing to give.

Ultimately if someone wants to change they should be given the support required to do so.

 

[DragoonKain]

As much effort as a person is willing to give.

Ultimately if someone wants to change they should be given the support required to do so.

I completely agree.

I've seen a lot of stories about some of the people who marched in Charlottesville being outed and stuff like that. And honestly, I can't sit here and say they don't deserve it, nor can I blame the people who outed them. People don't want extremists in our society, I don't want extremists in society. However, I do have concerns that this will just make angry and misguided people even angrier and more misguided making them harder to change and even more extreme in their beliefs and actions.

And if that happens, I can't sit here and blame people for outing them because they didn't do anything wrong, but I also wonder if that could be a key thing that pushes a person past the tipping point as well.

It's just a shitty situation all around with no great solutions and a lot of grey areas and guess work.

 

[Crayon]

To write off any human or group is serious shit and somewhat perilous. Even when done for self-defense, the change in perspective when people start to see "others" leads to serious consequences one way or another.

 

[Jintor]

i don't think it's a lost cause.

but i also think educating strangers who have no other connections to yourselves and no strong motive to form empathetic connections is extremely difficult.

i always hear motivational speakers of 'this black dude made friends with a random kkk guy and turned him from their bullshit' and i wonder how they do it.

 

[bionic77]

Not a lost cause but I am not interested in doing the job.

 

[Alcotholic]

In order for them to change, they would have to be open to the idea of change and understanding perspectives. Many of which I don't think are capable of.

 

[DragoonKain]

i don't think it's a lost cause.

but i also think educating strangers who have no other connections to yourselves and no strong motive to form empathetic connections is extremely difficult.

i always hear motivational speakers of 'this black dude made friends with a random kkk guy and turned him from their bullshit' and i wonder how they do it.

I think like my two friends, the best way to get anyone to change is to expose them to a diverse group of people. I think the biggest reason homosexuality is more accepted in society today than it has ever been is because every person on this planet knows someone who is gay. Whether it be a family member or a friend, or a friend of a friend. And when you spend time with them and get to know them you understand they are no different. It's happening organically. Not because people are intimidated to have to accept homosexuals. They want to. That's the best way for change to stick, when people change willingly.

That's the best way to be educated in anything. To get to know it firsthand. In the situation of supremacists though, I'd like to say everyone knows someone of a different ethnicity, but not everyone does. There are people who live an areas that can go the first 15 years into their lives without seeing someone of a different race as difficult as it is to believe. You can't just take racists and drop them in diverse regions. It's tough.

 

[IaN_GAF]

I tend to ponder that a lack of education in the first place is what creates a situation in which a person could drift off into the insanity of the extremes of the political / ethical / moral spectrum.

 

[Ogodei]

Anyone can change, but they have to be open to the idea.

 

[norm9]

Not a lost cause but I am not interested in doing the job.

This. I'd make more progress mentally and emotionally by banging my own head against a brick wall. But lots of luck to the patient soul willing to try.

 

[Slayven]

First they would have to want to change

and second nobody got time correcting their parents mistakes

 

[Orayn]

Trump defunded one of the only big organizations devoted to this.

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/8/17/life_after_hate_trump_admin_stops

 

[Shoeless]

I don't think that any person is too far gone to be rehabilitated, but it's always a question of whether the effort required is "cost effective." It's pretty much the same argument as to whether actively reforming prisoners versus just keeping them locked up and safely out of public access is the better alternative.

Some people may only require a reasoned discussion. Others may actually require years of intense therapy and counselling carefully applied by professionals. But if that's what it takes to make some of them see reason, who is going to pay for that?

I think anyone can be saved, but I don't know how many people would be willing to foot the time or the bill required to do it.

 

[kswiston]

I don't think that any person is too far gone to be rehabilitated, but it's always a question of whether the effort required is "cost effective." It's pretty much the same argument as to whether actively reforming prisoners versus just keeping them locked up and safely out of public access is the better alternative.

Some people may only require a reasoned discussion. Others may actually require years of intense therapy and counselling carefully applied by professionals. But if that's what it takes to make some of them see reason, who is going to pay for that?

I think anyone can be saved, but I don't know how many people would be willing to foot the time or the bill required to do it.

This basically summarizes how I feel.

 

[Slayven]

Phrasing this as "rehabilitating" comes too close to "mental illness" territory, which is to give shit an excuse or pass.

 

[Kuroi Gogeta]

I'll be one of the people to offer a hot take in this thread:

Yes.

It is a lost cause because unless the individual sees their views as a problem and see how those views are hurting them, they won't change. Hate and anger are very potent and addictive. It is soothing to simply be able to blame your lack of economic opportunity and loneliness not on the fact that you are unwilling to adapt to a changing world, but because there is something wrong with the world itself. Much like any addiction, until the addict sees that there is a problem then they won't stop.

We are talking about people who's entire support network believes some variation of the same thing. Do you know how hard it is to walk away from that support network? the friends, the family, the spiritual leaders? It is a tough process that the individual themselves has to initiate and be willing to seek help for. It isn't a lost cause to educate and rehabilitate people who express genuine curiosity and seek to challenge their own views, but it is pointless to approach them and try to get them to see how they are wrong.

 

[dragonchild]

After a certain point people don't stop being who they are. But when society sets down a few rules, the benefits can kick in a generation later. The opposite applies. There's a reason why Texas takes such a keen interest in the K-12 textbooks everyone uses.

The Nazis in Germany didn't stop being Nazis on the inside; privately they were Nazis until they died. They just weren't allowed to spew their ideology of hatred out in public. Germany made it against the law. That resulted in a near-eradication of public hate speech in Germany, which in turn limited its ability to fester over generations. America's bigots fiercely maintained the right to raise their children into monsters, and we responded by. . . allowing them to homeschool.

Yes, I mean go for their kids and educate them. I ain't talking kidnapping or brainwashing, but they will certainly see it that way. I'm saying put the hammer down on "I can raise mah kids however I want", make school mandatory and teach civics and critical thinking. FFS they wrote our textbooks and made kids recite the Pledge and maintain a 24x7 artillery assault on the separation of church and state. See, whatever indoctrination they do is OK to them. But destroy the institutionalization of bigotry and they will respond as if their very way of life is under attack, because well, it is. It's just that a "way of life" that depends on oppressing and killing others isn't a valid form of democracy. So yeah, it's high time we destroyed it.

 

[kswiston]

Phrasing this as "rehabilitating" comes too close to "mental illness" territory, which is to give shit an excuse or pass.

There's probably some overlap.

However, I also don't think that (most) mental illness and emotional trauma gives people a free pass. It can help explain why people do what they do, but they still did it.

 

[norm9]

Perhaps electrocution? Beatings? Maybe some sort of surgery, either brain or body part removal?

Spoiler

joking, or not?

 

[More_Badass]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...-changes-his-mind_us_580cda19e4b000d0b1572f5f

Also this
How A Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away From ISIS

 

[rokkerkory]

Let God do that

 

[DragoonKain]

After a certain point people don't stop being who they are. But when society sets down a few rules, the benefits can kick in a generation later. The opposite applies. There's a reason why Texas takes such a keen interest in the K-12 textbooks everyone uses.

The Nazis in Germany didn't stop being Nazis on the inside; privately they were Nazis until they died. They just weren't allowed to spew their ideology of hatred out in public. Germany made it against the law. That resulted in a near-eradication of public hate speech in Germany, which in turn limited its ability to fester over generations. America's bigots fiercely maintained the right to raise their children into monsters, and we responded by. . . allowing them to homeschool.

Yes, I mean go for their kids and educate them. I ain't talking kidnapping or brainwashing, but they will certainly see it that way. I'm saying put the hammer down on "I can raise mah kids however I want", make school mandatory and teach civics and critical thinking. FFS they wrote our textbooks and made kids recite the Pledge and maintain a 24x7 artillery assault on the separation of church and state. See, whatever indoctrination they do is OK to them. But destroy the institutionalization of bigotry and they will respond as if their very way of life is under attack, because well, it is. It's just that a "way of life" that depends on oppressing and killing others isn't a valid form of democracy. So yeah, it's high time we destroyed it.

For many, absolutely, but I do think that many Nazi soldiers realized Hitler was a total nutjob at some point and were only fighting out of fear that they'd be executed if they didn't fight.

But I do agree that it's important to educate kids so it has a trickle down effect. However, that doesn't always work. Many kids grow up to be opposite of their parents and are rebellious by nature, even with parents doing a great job, they can't stay around them 24/7. Kids will always be at risk to be exposed to hatred and propaganda, and some just take to it no matter how great their parents are. Still, parenting is important and even though there are no guarantees, it does help the chances that a kid doesn't grow up to be hateful.

 

[BotoxAgent]

They can change but it takes too much effort and patience to pull it off. And I would never try to do it knowin how vile and reprehensible they could be.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Also this
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...town-helped-young-muslims-turn-away-from-isis

Also this:

Fight against extremism for former neo-Nazi from Chicago ramps up after Trump, Charlottesville

 

[IaN_GAF]

Let God do that

We'd need a God first and who knows how tough that will be to aquire.

I second everyone who places value on the education of the next generation. America and Europe alike.

 

[Ogodei]

Phrasing this as "rehabilitating" comes too close to "mental illness" territory, which is to give shit an excuse or pass.

Same phrase often used for criminals, you are "rehabilitated" such that you are fit to once again function in society.

 

[Deepwater]

Not a lost cause but I am not interested in doing the job.

+1

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Also this
How A Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away From ISIS

this is probably the better course of action. a single person, small group can't do much of anything but a systemic targeted approach towards assimilating/re-assimilating done at the government level will have a higher success rate.

 

[Rktk]

Not a lost cause but I am not interested in doing the job.

You don't have to do the job, your tax dollars do.

 

[RedSparrows]

Phrasing this as "rehabilitating" comes too close to "mental illness" territory, which is to give shit an excuse or pass.

Really? To rehabilitate in my mind is to help someone adjust after a transgression, to take part in civil society.

 

[MHWilliams]

It's not a lost cause on an individual basis, if you have the time and effort to devote to the rehabilitation. Or you are a large scale organization with significant resources and generally, governmental backing.

Once you move beyond that, it becomes more of a fool's quest. The truth is people's beliefs are generally tied to their worldview, which is tied to their sense of self. Minds will fight hard not to change a worldview, generally requiring a catastrophic event, like rock bottom or being placed in a situation that runs completely counter to your world view.

Which is to say, dropping facts in a forum, or Twitter, or on YouTube is unlikely to change minds that aren't already receptive to what you're saying. It's been proven quite well that simply having facts won't change minds, otherwise contingents like anti-vaxxers or flat-earthers wouldn't be seeing some growth in their ranks. And there's no reason to believe that racists or sexists are much different.

 

[Slayven]

Really? To rehabilitate in my mind is to help someone adjust after a transgression, to take part in civil society.

What transgression has white supremacists experienced?

 

[LookAtMeGo]

I think the overwhelming show of support for the other side like we saw in Boston will do more than trying to have any kind of dialogue with these people.


And it looks like Vancouver Canada is following suit. Good. Show these fucks we wont allow it.

 

[Aurongel]

There's a reason social change historically takes place over the course of many, many decades. Once people are brought up believing in whatever fictitious fantasy their parents choose then it becomes heinously difficult to break that feedback loop. Ive always felt that this is why social change is usually discussed as something that occurs between generations rather than during. Hate and ignorance are powerful things that sometimes require a generation dying off before any meaningful change can take place.

Reeducate the ignorant isn't impossible but it's one of the most absolutely difficult and thankless jobs there is. Reshaping a worldview is like reshaping how a person frames every experience and idea they come across. It's a monumental task.

 

[thepotatoman]

Life After Hate was founded by 4 former members of various hate groups. They seem to think that the root cause for a lot of it is people with real non-race related problems in their own lives, and getting drawn into using these hate groups as a shitty answer to those problems. I don't think everyone in these hate groups are like that, but a good number of them probably are.

Stigmatizing them is a bad way to get anyone to convert, but a really good way to get people to not join up with them in the first place.

 

[paperboywriter]

It's worth the trouble. You can't just gas the nazies.

 

[gun_haver]

Phrasing this as "rehabilitating" comes too close to "mental illness" territory, which is to give shit an excuse or pass.

This hostility to people being open to criminal or deviant people possibly being mentally ill is becoming an obsession with some people around here. People have to be held accountable for what they do, but I've made posts just speculating that someone who did some crazy fucking thing might be mentally ill and got jumped on for it by like ten posters. I understand the perception that this, in some people's mind 'charitable' reaction, is something that bigots only afford to their chosen kinds of people, but that is not what I do and I don't think it advances the conversation about why criminals do what they do or what we should be doing about them.

There is no short hand for 'brought up in a chaotic environment, received poor education, has been signalled at all their lives that the wrongs things matter and does not have either the agency or mental capability to understand why they felt the need to do (whatever it is).'

It is easy to just wipe your hands of people and call them pieces of shit, it's easy because it's the end of the conversation and it feels simple, but it doesn't do anything. I don't blame anybody for not wanting to understand certain groups of people, but I am getting a bit sick of this attitude that anybody who does try to understand is somehow dismissing their crimes/attitudes and somehow normalising it.

It isn't even about sitting down with a rapist or white nationalist and having a nice long talk about how they feel, it's about looking at their lives and figuring out how they ended up where they did and what we are doing or not doing as a society that continues to produce these kinds of people. I'm sorry I'm ranting on a bit here but this flippant 'lol they were mentally ill right?' thing is becoming an irritating refrain that too many people are too satisfied with.

As for whether people are ever beyond some form of redemption, no, I don't think that's ever beyond a person, but it doesn't erase what they did before either. Depending on the extremity of what they did, it might be too late for their victims or society to ever be interested in forgiving them, but if somebody wants to change, that's good. It can be a pretty thankless proposition on the side of the criminal and the rehabilitator. Digging your heels in is a lot more attractive.

It's kind of a huge question.

 

[Famassu]

Phrasing this as "rehabilitating" comes too close to "mental illness" territory, which is to give shit an excuse or pass.

Uhh.. No? Describing it as rehabilitation does absolutely no such thing. Rehabilitating criminals is a thing. We can talk about rehabiliating white supremacist in the same way.

White supremacist are such for some reason. No one is born a hateful, racist fuck. As such, if we take the stance that such hateful shit is not something we want from people in society, we can make the argument that white supremacist need to be rehabilitated for them to be able to function as not hateful pieces of shit ina world with a lot of people who differ from them one way or the other.

 

[Maximo]

I mean first American needs to invest heavily in Mental Health and the outlook on mental health in general and change its ways of *PUNISH PUNISH Everyone goes to jail! NO MERCY* first I don't believe anyone is beyond rehab...in the current state of how america treats its people..its not a lost cause but sure as fuck won't get better until something drastic changes.

 

[paperboywriter]

It's definitely more effective to try and educate the young though.

 

[ZealousD]

Life After Hate was founded by 4 former members of various hate groups. They seem to think that the root cause for a lot of it is people with real non-race related problems in their own lives, and getting drawn into using these hate groups as a shitty answer to those problems. I don't think everyone in these hate groups are like that, but a good number of them probably are.

Stigmatizing them is a bad way to get anyone to convert, but a really good way to get people to not join up with them in the first place.

Life After Hate is currently fundraising right now. Obama originally promised them a grant but then the Trump Administration took their funding away.

https://publicgood.com/org/life-after-hate-inc/campaign/help-life-after-hate-fight-on

 

[Unbounded]

People can definitely change, just it isn't exactly easy, and AFAIK requires some sort of large realization or new experience to make it happen.

 

[Slayven]

Life After Hate was founded by 4 former members of various hate groups. They seem to think that the root cause for a lot of it is people with real non-race related problems in their own lives, and getting drawn into using these hate groups as a shitty answer to those problems. I don't think everyone in these hate groups are like that, but a good number of them probably are.

Stigmatizing them is a bad way to get anyone to convert, but a really good way to get people to not join up with them in the first place.

And the government just defunded them. Which leads into

This hostility to people being open to criminal or deviant people possibly being mentally ill is becoming an obsession with some people around here. People have to be held accountable for what they do, but I've made posts just speculating that someone who did some crazy fucking thing might be mentally ill and got jumped on for it by like ten posters. I understand the perception that this, in some people's mind 'charitable' reaction, is something that bigots only afford to their chosen kinds of people, but that is not what I do and I don't think it advances the conversation about why criminals do what they do or what we should be doing about them.

There is no short hand for 'brought up in a chaotic environment, received poor education, has been signalled at all their lives that the wrongs things matter and does not have either the agency or mental capability to understand why they felt the need to do (whatever it is).'

It is easy to just wipe your hands of people and call them pieces of shit, it's easy because it's the end of the conversation and it feels simple, but it doesn't do anything. I don't blame anybody for not wanting to understand certain groups of people, but I am getting a bit sick of this attitude that anybody who does try to understand is somehow dismissing their crimes/attitudes and somehow normalising it.

It isn't even about sitting down with a rapist or white nationalist and having a nice long talk about how they feel, it's about looking at their lives and figuring out how they ended up where they did and what we are doing or not doing as a society that continues to produce these kinds of people. I'm sorry I'm ranting on a bit here but this flippant 'lol they were mentally ill right?' thing is becoming an irritating refrain that too many people are too satisfied with.

As for whether people are ever beyond some form of redemption, no, I don't think that's ever beyond a person, but it doesn't erase what they did before either. Depending on the extremity of what they did, it might be too late for their victims or society to ever be interested in forgiving them, but if somebody wants to change, that's good. It can be a pretty thankless proposition on the side of the criminal and the rehabilitator. Digging your heels in is a lot more attractive.

It's kind of a huge question.

Talking to these people on a individual level with not solve that. "Rehabitlating" a couple dozens won't mean a thing if you don't fix the systematic racism that causes the problem.

Gutting of mental health. cause they voted for GOP

Gutting of social safety net. gutted because they fell for GOP dogwhistles

Terrible education system. gutted by the GOP

These people will chop off their own foot as long as brown person loses their leg int he same action.

How do you fix white sumprancy? I don't know but i doubt it is going door to door.

 

[DragoonKain]

Life After Hate was founded by 4 former members of various hate groups. They seem to think that the root cause for a lot of it is people with real non-race related problems in their own lives, and getting drawn into using these hate groups as a shitty answer to those problems. I don't think everyone in these hate groups are like that, but a good number of them probably are.

Stigmatizing them is a bad way to get anyone to convert, but a really good way to get people to not join up with them in the first place.

I think they are spot on. Poverty and lack of education(not necessarily academics, but social as well) are two major causes of it. Poverty creates desperation, desperation creates anger, anger creates the need for someone to blame.

Then in walks a supremacist in your life who gives you someone to blame and gives you something to channel that anger towards. A Neo Nazi is born.

Just one example. It's why so many impoverished regions of our country are the most violent and many impoverished countries are exposed to so much religious extremism. Those people are very susceptible to propaganda, rhetoric and being brainwashed. Desperate people do desperate things.