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Epic knows PS4/NEXTXBOX specs - [Giving recommendations w/ commercial mindedness]

I would be ecstatic if next generation consoles used top of the line hardware, even if they cost upwards of $600, but I'm hardly the majority it seems. I'm curious as to why people's opinions on console prices haven't changed in years, though. iPads cost at least $500, cell phones are even more unless you get them with a contract, TVs generally cost around $1,000, and a GTX 690 is about the same price as a TV, so why is it that people don't seem willing to pay more than $350 for something that will last at least twice as long as an iPad?

And if Epic were truly looking for more power they could start focusing heavily on PC development.
 

Ponn

Banned
Ubisoft have just said their plan for the next gen. Get more money from us. So, are you ready to pay more?

Nope. I'm actually building myself a backlog on my PS3. I bought a 3DS and Vita and building up a collection of DS, 3DS, PSP and Vita games along with PSone classics. I'm pretty set for next gen, the rest of you have fun getting reamed and dealing with the coming storm. Any real interesting OMG graphical games i will just watch on youtube.
 

SYNTAX182

Member
I would be ecstatic if next generation consoles used top of the line hardware, even if they cost upwards of $600, but I'm hardly the majority it seems. I'm curious as to why people's opinions on console prices haven't changed in years, though. iPads cost at least $500, cell phones are even more unless you get them with a contract, TVs generally cost around $1,000, and a GTX 690 is about the same price as a TV, so why is it that people don't seem willing to pay more than $350 for something that will last at least twice as long as an iPad?

And if Epic were truly looking for more power they could start focusing heavily on PC development.

Interesting question. I think iPad's are trendy right now, and tablets in general. An iPad can do more things like internet browsing, videos on the go, etc. It's portable as well. This could be an advantage the WiiU might have as well with their tablet. Consoles are mostly advertised to play games, and iPad's, cellphones and such appeal more to a wider audience than just gamers, it is advertised to do more things, so it has a wider apeal.
 

Pyrrhus

Member
But this goes w/ the underlying assumption that graphical advancement is the only thing that can be made, which makes no sense. It's all about how the graphics are supposed to draw you in, while we're still stuck with the conventional controller scheme limiting how we affect the world that's being drawn with ever more realism. You'd have a far more profound effect on advancing games if a little more money's put into digesting Kinect/Wii/Move/etc control schemes, advancing that to another level, and providing experiences that can really change the way games are played out. Money just never goes in that direction because people have been taught to be solely fixated on visuals, and throw out everything else.

Extra graphical fidelity is great, but what really made this gen was the true rise of social integration into our consoles. I don't mind more graphical bling myself, but I do not think it'll convince a lot of people to switch over by itself.

I can't say I agree with your opinions on what constitutes good progress for games as a medium. I was happier before I had to flail my arms to do what amounts to a button press or tell games that, no, I don't want them to tweet about what I just did. The social media integration is mostly just a tool to keep us stuck on a particular format or game by using our friends as an anchor rather than something that has meaningfully contributed to games as a medium. Halo: Reach death match isn't a terribly different experience from Halo 2.

Beyond that, more power doesn't just allow things to look nicer. It allows for a more complex game world with more details, more interactivity, and greater persistence of details.

Consider the following. All objects in the environment potentially interactive and dynamically destructible, with properly calculated weight and density. Battles with the scale and complexity of the real thing rather than 60 or so mannequins on screen shuffling around like a Dynasty Warriors game. Logical, persistent social interaction with NPCs in games like Skyrim rather than the entire town colluding to beat you to death for stealing a cheap sword and meanwhile standing on top of a pile of their slain family members having a chat about the weather. Complex hit detection, procedural animation and model deformation so that everybody's clothing and hair moves realistically, armor and swords don't clip through the player character's body, and you can hit objects and people with flexible objects like whips and damage and animation will be determined and displayed dynamically rather than just relying on static hitboxes and canned animations.

Many of these elements have been used individually in the past as a central gimmick for a game, but they could all work in tandem on more powerful hardware. And that would create new experiences that are more robust and engaging than people even considered possible a few years ago. People who think we've reached the point of diminishing returns just aren't thinking ambitiously enough.
 

NateDrake

Member
Great. I can't wait to buy a $599 console & $90 games next-gen. I understand your view on this Epic, but the consumer doesn't want to spend tons of money to make your vision become a reality. Any developer can create an engine that requires insane amounts of power but that doesn't mean it is financially feasible for the console manufacturer to meet your expectations.

Epic, if you want to create Avatar like graphics then go to the PC & have fun doing so.
 

daakusedo

Member
If the future for a lot of developers was not so unpredictable to not say dark and seeing the monopolies becoming worse, this race for high end tech would be hilarious with lot of people not even impressed by what they're seeing now.
 

McLovin

Member
They should listen, could you imagine how the 360 would have been if they didn't listen? I swear if they Wii next gen I'm going exclusively to pc.... Maybe Ps4 after price drop.
 

Harlock

Member
I wish the PS4 and Xbox720 were more different between them. I hate to see those comparison videos where you can´t see any difference.
 

vg260

Member
I'd rather spend a bit more for the console if this next gen is going to last as long as the current gen personally. The PS3 and Xbox 360 can still have some good looking games but you can tell how much better they could be if the specs had been higher. I at least want next gen systems to be able to handle a solid frame rate without screen tearing and blurry textures popping in all over the place. Developers of AAA titles have had to do far too many tricks to make the games look as good as they are and you can tell. I'd much rather pay $500-600 for a new system that is going to be "Current gen" for 7+ years than buy a $300-400 system that will be under powered within 2 years.


Same here. An $100 or so extra investment initially is not a big deal for something that's targeted to last much longer than the latest iPad or iPhone or most other pieces of electronics. Especially considering one game itself is $60. Just rent one game or two and there you go. I feel like it's kind of silly how much they're willing to blow on the latest phone or tablet knowing they'll be outdated in a year. Most consumers would probably disagree.
 

theBishop

Banned
Is this the first actual confirmation that we are to not be TOO excited about next-gen ? Very worrying if true.

seriously? :/

Without even knowing the specs we have no idea what Epic knows now and what they're advocating for. Epic famously convinced Microsoft to double the ram in Xbox360. We know that it payed off, but 360 would still be a huge boost over Xbox1 with 256MB ram.

Really what this comes down to is Epic are the premiere middleware providers in the industry and their technical decisions must factor into the engineering of next-gen hardware. It doesn't say anything about the current plans of Microsoft and Sony.
 

MrMephistoX

Member
This.

The level of graphics being put out in something like Uncharted is perfectly fine - just give people the ability to put more bodies on screen and some more interaction with the environment and we're good.

I do not need 'Avatar in real-time'.

You're definitely in the minority: people who merely want that would be better off buying a PC.
 
They should listen, could you imagine how the 360 would have been if they didn't listen? I swear if they Wii next gen I'm going exclusively to pc.... Maybe Ps4 after price drop.
The 360 would likely have been cheaper, which would have lead to quicker adoption, and still its focus as the generational standard. Probably would have worked out better for the PS3 too.
 

salpa

Banned
CPU is not a hindrance to AI. I agree with more RAM though, but GPU is most important on a console.

AI is CPU bound 100%.

In the past it wasn't, and in 2D games it's not, but in 3D worlds it most definitely is.

AI is just a set of complex instructions on the surface, but once you delve into that complexity there is an enormous amount of instructions going on that are directly read by your CPU.

Your GPU can only take orders as fast as it can receive them. Kepler is trying to change this with dynamic parallelism, which has the GPU kind of assume what will happen next, but that's not an absolute solution to solving CPU bottleknecks, which are very common.
 

UrbanRats

Member
I understand the problems related to too expensive hardware, but personally, i need to have a reason to upgrade from Ps3/360, otherwise i'll just stick to PC.
Changing console for the sake of changing it is stupid, so there must be a significant upgrade; how much is "significant" i don't really know, though.
 

kodecraft

Member
Thats always been the most disturbing difference between "console" game developers and "PC" game developers to me. Now that their so close its bleeding over. What happened to being smarter about your developing and programming, being more creative and getting every last ounce of juice out of the machine. There is a reason why at the end of the consoles life games look better then launch games. Yet instead of enjoying them or letting us enjoy them they want to skip right into the next console.

Then theres the lazy developers, lets make everything bloated and just whine we need 8 gigs of ram and the newest tech to hide our lazy programming. In the end the consumers paying for that and only a handful of these developers are using all that tech, or in the case of next gen able to afford to use it. These companies have piss poor track records of thinking about the future or their actions.

There's already a market for the hardware dependent lazy programming, its the PC. You get all your FPS and the best graphics to your heart content without having to worry about constraints. Console gaming should stay a separate ecosystem.

This, its the same thing with American car manufacturers VS foreign ones.

-More horsepowered box-shaped gas guzzlers (American cars) and the tighter handling gas efficient long lasting durable foreign cars.
 

Sentenza

Member
I'm not. The amount of subtle (and not-so-subtle) lobbying against high-end gaming over the past years has been staggering, particularly on this forum. Unsurprisingly, it started when Nintendo released the Wii. I can't recall gamers on message boards worrying incessantly about development costs before that.

I wonder how different this thread would be had that never happened.
I find somehow ironic that people apparently so concerned with development costs and "creativity" are still willing to support a market model essentially defined by *close platforms* and manufacturers imposing royalty fees on developers.
 

mantidor

Member
The guy sounds like an ass "we need to render Avatar in real time because is what gamers want even if the don't know they want it"? seriously?
 

mclem

Member
AI is CPU bound 100%.

In the past it wasn't, and in 2D games it's not, but in 3D worlds it most definitely is.

AI is just a set of complex instructions on the surface, but once you delve into that complexity there is an enormous amount of instructions going on that are directly read by your CPU.

Your GPU can only take orders as fast as it can receive them. Kepler is trying to change this with dynamic parallelism, which has the GPU kind of assume what will happen next, but that's not an absolute solution to solving CPU bottleknecks, which are very common.


Um, no. The problem with AI at the moment is that 'just a set of complex instructions' is, well, nowhere near comprehensive enough to get a particularly smart AI. Someone needs to write a better 'just a set of complex instructions'. And that's *hard*. And nothing to do with the power of the processing units.
 
Avatar on realtime? :lol :lol


But I do hope MS and Sony listen, there is no excuse for these consoles to not push boundaries, but I am sure things like Kinect will cloud MS's judgement. Here's hoping the technically capable developers can convince them it is worth it.
 
Super high performance consoles would be treading dangerous waters. As has been stated multiple times in this thread, game production costs would skyrocket, development time would be ridiculous, and the initial hardware costs would be substantially higher than previous generations.

Do people really need insane Avatar visuals? I mean, Uncharted 3 looked great to me. Then again, I'm not a stickler for graphics in the first place. I think that Mario 3 is just as good a game as any of the Uncharteds.
 

zlatko

Banned
I want a step above Witcher 2 and Battlefield 3 on max settings on PC.

Give me that and I'll pony up with the right software to push it. see Metal Gear Solid.
 

McLovin

Member
Interesting question. I think iPad's are trendy right now, and tablets in general. An iPad can do more things like internet browsing, videos on the go, etc. It's portable as well. This could be an advantage the WiiU might have as well with their tablet. Consoles are mostly advertised to play games, and iPad's, cellphones and such appeal more to a wider audience than just gamers, it is advertised to do more things, so it has a wider apeal.
That tablet isn't really mobile from my understanding its a dumb terminal with button and sensors. I don't mean dumb as in stupid, but that it doesn't do processing. The video comes from the console.
 

Hiltz

Member
This shit is getting out of hand. It's understandable why Epic wants to do this ,but it's like even if Sony and Microsoft were to wait until 2015, these next-gen super consoles will be at least $600.
 

jmdajr

Member
Show me some cool games and I won't give a fuck. Chances are they will look just fine on my 1080p hdtv. I don't need 4k gaming or whatever insane expectations people need.

Heck my pc still has a 8800gt (not that I play games on it). I'm sure to me it will look like a leap.
 

HylianTom

Banned
This shit is getting out of hand. It's understandable why Epic wants to do this ,but it's like even if Sony and Microsoft were to wait until 2015, these next-gen super consoles will be at least $600.
The thing is.. what happens to Sony if they have another PS3-level loss? Do they survive? Looking at what the PS3 already produces (i.e. beautiful, beautiful graphics), is the improvement in graphics and power really worth the risk? No matter what path they choose with this next console, the games are gonna be gorgeous.

I just don't see it as a worthwhile risk, and if I loved Sony and wanted them to be around so that they make their games for a long, long time, then I'd want them to play it safe.
 

SYNTAX182

Member
AI is CPU bound 100%.

In the past it wasn't, and in 2D games it's not, but in 3D worlds it most definitely is.

AI is just a set of complex instructions on the surface, but once you delve into that complexity there is an enormous amount of instructions going on that are directly read by your CPU.

Your GPU can only take orders as fast as it can receive them. Kepler is trying to change this with dynamic parallelism, which has the GPU kind of assume what will happen next, but that's not an absolute solution to solving CPU bottleknecks, which are very common.

Programming is the bottleneck on AI complexity, not the current processing power of CPUs
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
Honestly, if next-gen consoles are capable of doing games as good looking as Witcher 2 on Ultra with stable FPS, i'll be fine with it. I don't want Avatar graphics for 800$. Give me that in 2020 or something when its going to be 300$.
 

JB1981

Member
I understand the problems related to too expensive hardware, but personally, i need to have a reason to upgrade from Ps3/360, otherwise i'll just stick to PC.
Changing console for the sake of changing it is stupid, so there must be a significant upgrade; how much is "significant" i don't really know, though.

i agree especially when PC is there as an alternative. that said, MS will probably focus on services
 

theBishop

Banned
I understand the problems related to too expensive hardware, but personally, i need to have a reason to upgrade from Ps3/360, otherwise i'll just stick to PC.
Changing console for the sake of changing it is stupid, so there must be a significant upgrade; how much is "significant" i don't really know, though.

I don't think $400 is too much to ask for a next-gen console. That strikes me as the right price to launch.

The problem in 05/06 was that PS3 launched way too high, and 360 was about the same when you factor in necessary costs. For most people not wired in cat-5, you had to buy an absurd $100 wifi dongle, and $50 for a year of online multiplayer. So early adopters were paying more like $550 before they bought a single game, and that's without nice-to-haves like the rechargeable battery pack (standard on PS3).

Microsoft and Sony should both strive to keep the cost-of-entry at $400 next gen. No hidden costs (*ahem* memory cards...), no subscriptions for basic functionality, etc. What I get for $400 should be able to plug into my HDTV (3DTV?), and get the full experience.
 

SYNTAX182

Member
That tablet isn't really mobile from my understanding its a dumb terminal with button and sensors. I don't mean dumb as in stupid, but that it doesn't do processing. The video comes from the console.

You are absolutely correct. I was just speaking in terms of it's a tablet, and less informed consumers thinking it's more so they are more inclined to purchase because it's considered a tablet because of their popularity at this time.
 
I really don't understand why almost everyone (devs, editors, players) want to have so powerful hardware.

I personally don't want more expensive games, or 3/4 of the upcoming games being sequels or having more boring stories/characters stereotypes and no creativity...

Some will say I'm a troll but I'm not I just entered this thread to say my feeling about that. Sorry to have chosen the Epic one.

Engines are great but the focus shouldn't be on them and the graphical power they can give. Hell even the physics that we were waiting for years are not there yet. There has a good step forward this generation but it's not as good as it could be.
 
Because the competition for your $60 is getting higher and higher.

What's being argued for here by some is that platform holders should put a cap on that competition with hardware.

You act like super-bleeding-edge consoles don't put their own cap on competition in the form of there only being a handful of companies able to take advantage of them, and in order to recoup their costs they all have to chase after the same narrow market segment with increasingly generic, streamlined blockbuster titles.

It's like you guys want Epic, Crytek, Ubisoft, Activision, Naughty Dog, and EA to be the only developers making games for you.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
So are they gonna be on par with WiiU, 1.5x the power or less?

I hate this assumption of the 1.5 purely because the raw tech specs of a mid range off the shelf 4xxx series gaming card like a 4830/4770 IS more than double the power of the Xenos. In pure raw numbers it's more than double.

I'm not saying those raw numbers will translate to something that'll visually standout like going from the PS2 --> PS3. I think in terms of the eye test you need quiet a bit more than that to get the at a glance difference people are looking for. In terms of pure raw numbers though the GPU will definitely be more than 1.5 x the difference.

It's like talking to a brick wall with people on this subject though.
 

UrbanRats

Member
I don't think $400 is too much to ask for a next-gen console. That strikes me as the right price to launch.

The problem in 05/06 was that PS3 launched way too high, and 360 was about the same when you factor in necessary costs. For most people not wired in cat-5, you had to buy an absurd $100 wifi dongle, and $50 for a year of online multiplayer. So early adopters were paying more like $550 before they bought a single game, and that's without nice-to-haves like the rechargeable battery pack (standard on PS3).

Microsoft and Sony should both strive to keep the cost-of-entry at $400 next gen. No hidden costs (*ahem* memory cards...), no subscriptions for basic functionality, etc. What I get for $400 should be able to plug into my HDTV (3DTV?), and get the full experience.

The problem is what upgrade can that get you in terms of power? What i mean is: i play Arkham City on my PC with great frame rate and a significant visual upgrade from console in terms of image quality and "side stuff" (physX, 3d quality etc).
Now do i want to pay 400$ to have basically the same (if not worst) upgrade from a new console? The thing about consoles is that they are closed systems, so devs allegedly can pump far more from their HW (i mean, look at Uncharted 3 on that oldass HW) so i don't expect the same specs i have on my PC, but i'm not sure i'm willing to pay 400$ for a slightly better IQ.
So, what can those 400$ get us? I agree with your reasoning, you can't ask 600 for a console, but it looks like we've hit a brick wall or something here, at the time of the SNES or the PS1, a major power upgrade was basically a given, now? Not so much.
 

DjangoReinhardt

Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
I would be ecstatic if next generation consoles used top of the line hardware, even if they cost upwards of $600, but I'm hardly the majority it seems. I'm curious as to why people's opinions on console prices haven't changed in years, though. iPads cost at least $500, cell phones are even more unless you get them with a contract, TVs generally cost around $1,000, and a GTX 690 is about the same price as a TV, so why is it that people don't seem willing to pay more than $350 for something that will last at least twice as long as an iPad?

And if Epic were truly looking for more power they could start focusing heavily on PC development.

The satisfaction I receive from better graphics isn't worth the cost to me. I'd rather have cheaper games and an environment in which developers are less risk-averse in terms of design.

Great design and mechanics stick with me, not which game was the prettiest at the time of its release.
 

theBishop

Banned
You act like super-bleeding-edge consoles don't put their own cap on competition in the form of there only being a handful of companies able to take advantage of them, and in order to recoup their costs they all have to chase after the same narrow market segment with increasingly generic, streamlined blockbuster titles.

It's like you guys want Epic, Crytek, Activision, Naughty Dog, and EA to be the only developers making games for you.

Is that really what you see happening today? There's more variety in developer size and design scope than ever. I'd turn it back on you and ask why you think teams with the skills to push the envelope should be capped by 2005-era hardware.
 

Arcteryx

Member
The guy sounds like an ass "we need to render Avatar in real time because is what gamers want even if the don't know they want it"? seriously?

Sounds like typical marketing talk. But yea, I don't give a crap about Avatar-like graphics. I'd rather have a good game.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
You act like super-bleeding-edge consoles don't put their own cap on competition in the form of there only being a handful of companies able to take advantage of them, and in order to recoup their costs they all have to chase after the same narrow market segment with increasingly generic, streamlined blockbuster titles.

It's like you guys want Epic, Crytek, Activision, Naughty Dog, and EA to be the only developers making games for you.


If we end up in a situation where only a couple of companies can only produce a couple of games a year for these things, the market will react adversely and new opportunities will arise or consumers will go elsewhere. The market can set the bar for a sustainable quality standard at a level of supply that is satisfactory to the market.

We don't need hardware to artificially set that. Software competition and the market can sort that out.

Also, Epic/Crytek/Activision/ND/EA do have competition. They have to compete with legions of lower-cost developers selling games for a fraction of the price they're selling at on various platforms. There are new models and avenues opening up for developers who can't or don't wish to take blockbuster gambles.

If you're wishing that more or all developers could make games at the same standard as these devs and compete with them in the $60 tier and that it's 'not fair' if they can't - well, look, that's reality. Trying to smooth out the differences with crippled hardware seems like a crappy way of ignoring it.
 

Zee-Row

Banned
Epic wants higher specs but do other developers want it too? This gen has already killed a lot of developers because of the crazy budget games have on 360 and PS3.
 

theBishop

Banned
The problem is what upgrade can that get you in terms of power? What i mean is: i play Arkham City on my PC with great frame rate and a significant visual upgrade from console in terms of image quality and "side stuff" (physX, 3d quality etc).
Now do i want to pay 400$ to have basically the same (if not worst) upgrade from a new console? The thing about consoles is that they are closed systems, so devs allegedly can pump far more from their HW (i mean, look at Uncharted 3 on that oldass HW) so i don't expect the same specs i have on my PC, but i'm not sure i'm willing to pay 400$ for a slightly better IQ.
So, what can those 400$ get us? I agree with your reasoning, you can't ask 600 for a console, but it looks like we've hit a brick wall or something here, at the time of the SNES or the PS1, a major power upgrade was basically a given, now? Not so much.

I don't know what games you're playing, but I see us as just on the cusp of some pretty incredible design possibilities. Go play God of War 3 and watch as a whole level (on the back of a mountain-sized titan) shifts, moves, and changes perspective while you're playing. Go play Uncharted 2 during shootout where a whole building collapses around you. Or Alan Wake where the world constantly seems to shift from reality to delusion. I can't wait to see what Irrational is cooking up for Bioshock Infinite.

You're not the first person to drop the "games look good enough" argument. People were saying it about SNES. Those people have always been wrong, and it's been incredible game designers who consistently prove them wrong. I'm not pointing fingers, but it tends to be the people decrying so-called 'graphics whores' who actually lack the imagination to see what's coming.
 
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