• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Epic Reveals Samaritan Processing Requirements: 10x 360 at 1080p, (4.4x 360 at 720p)

I wasn't floored by Samaritan either. It looks better, yes, but it doesn't look like what I would expect to get from a 6-7 year technology gap. It looks more like a half-generation leap, like Dreamcast to Xbox.

Wii-U is over 9000...
over 9000 what?
Just over 9000

This is what every tech based debate on gaf boils down to. And yet they will continue bantering...
 
How reliable is the "Wii U GPU > 1 TFLOP" statement supposed to be? I tried searching the internet, but the only place I found it mention was here. LOL

It came from a Japanese website back around E3.

For Samaritan, it ran on three cards, but they said they felt they could get it down to one with enough optimization.

So that would likely be either one 580 (1.5 TFLOPS) or the AMD equivalent 6970 (2.7 TFLOPS).

Basically they want a card in late 2013 that runs like a high end card from January 2012, or approximately two years old.

I remember them saying that, but it was never said if it was achieved. Which is the point of my question. There is a big difference between needing two 580s or one 6970.

To figure that out you need to calculate the average utilization each card gets when running Samaritan then extrapolate that to however many cards gets you 2.5tf.

Which leaves a hole in the information and knowing how that applies to next gen consoles.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I remember them saying that, but it was never said if it was achieved. Which is the point of my question. There is a big difference between needing two 580s or one 6970.

Presumably these questions will be answered when Unreal Engine 4 is debuted. :lol

I doubt they'll give any more performance information until then.
 
Im not gonna dispute you on these numbers, because frankly idk where they come from and am too lazy too look up. But I know for a fact that no game on pc today ever comes close to the max specifications of a modern gpu, except maybe heat and watts generated.

That is true for both cards and is because of API overhead not low utilization. AMD gets lower utilization then Nvidia primarily due to architectural trade offs.
 
Presumably these questions will be answered when Unreal Engine 4 is debuted. :lol

I doubt they'll give any more performance information until then.

I agree with you. But considering what they needed at first to run the demo, I'm leaning more towards them only getting the performance down to needing two 580s based on that calculation. Of course that's two 580s not being pushed to the max, but still far from only one.
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
That is true for both cards and is because of API overhead not low utilization. AMD gets lower utilization then Nvidia primarily due to architectural trade offs.

lmao at all the people in this thread saying they can't see a big difference in Samaritan.
 
This guy is going to be a master of fixing software bugs with this confirmation bias, lol.

Guess what. I am a software engineer with years of experience. And I totally work with chief architects. Fuck, I've seen my CEO from time to time. He surely agrees with me.

I don't see why there's this argument. Consoles and PCs have their strengths and weaknesses. Consoles have ease of use, but also suffer from poor cooling/power, etc.

Afaik as i know cooling was only really a problem until this gen and a few die shrinks solved that easily. Meanwhile i dont think you'll ever be able to take control from a horribly bloated windows kernel. Care to elaborate?
 

Fraenir

Neo Member
Drivers. One of the main reasons the pc is such a terrible platform.

The PC may not be a platform dedicated to gaming but that doesn't mean it cannot deliver an exceptional experience in comparison to the console counterpart.


Idk what this is even supposed to mean, but as a software engineer-in-training a windows pc is one of the absolutey worse platforms to attempt to get anywhere near peak performance from. And my professors, who have more knowledge than any of you combined, seem to agree.

Also, allow me to doubt the truthfulness behind your "show off". Were this true, you'd know the real difference between a game on a PC and a game on a console is marketing.
 

Sheikh

Banned
This means that the next xbox will be very much capable of doing the demo real time which was great . Isnt the next xbox supposedly 8 times more powerful than the current xbox?
 
The PC may not be a platform dedicated to gaming but that doesn't mean it cannot deliver an exceptional experience in comparison to the console counterpart.




Also, allow me to doubt the truthfulness behind your "show off". Were this true, you'd know the real difference between a game on a PC and a game on a console is marketing.

Or maybe its Windows/DirectX/Drivers? But you're right what the hell do I know?
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Afaik as i know cooling was only really a problem until this gen and a few die shrinks solved that easily. Meanwhile i dont think you'll ever be able to take control from a horribly bloated windows kernel. Care to elaborate?

The current PC hardware already has those die shrinks and they're massive cards. 28 nm with the 7000 series. And well above 350 Watts Total system Power.

Windows Kernel uses < 256 MB of RAM, and with PC hardware DDR3 the cost of that much RAM is less than $3.

I have no idea what you're even arguing or why there needs to be an argument. LOL.
 
The current PC hardware already has those die shrinks and they're massive cards. 28 nm with the 7000 series.

Windows Kernel uses < 256 MB of RAM, and with PC hardware DDR3 the cost of that much RAM is less than $3.

I have no idea what you're even arguing or why there needs to be an argument. LOL.

Oh it uses less than 256 ddr eh? How.....efficient? You probably know how to bypass Windows thread management too huh? What about ditching X86/64 for something more efficient? Teach me your ways sensei.
 

squidyj

Member
2.5 is what it took to run the demo? or is that after the optimizations they said were possible?

I hate samaritan, it looks damn good but every time someone talks about it they come off to me as a bumbling buffoon.

Not to mention the fact that they are making decisions that have such a high performance cost for such a low visual benefit that I doubt they would be made for games for quite some time yet.
 

x3sphere

Member
I wasn't floored by Samaritan either. It looks better, yes, but it doesn't look like what I would expect to get from a 6-7 year technology gap. It looks more like a half-generation leap, like Dreamcast to Xbox.



This is what every tech based debate on gaf boils down to. And yet they will continue bantering...


I don't know what you're expecting, photo realism? Graphics don't necessarily scale linearly with hardware advancements, diminishing returns are starting to kick in since we're out of the SD era. That said, I think the Samaritan demo is pretty impressive in that you can definitely tell it couldn't be done on a PS3 or 360. That was not the case with many Xbox games.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Oh it uses less than 256 ddr eh? How.....efficient? You probably know how to bypass Windows thread management too huh? Teach me your ways sensei.

Windows is a general purpose operating system. It's not 1996. RAM is cheap as water.
 
Its definitely >= 2 580's as 2.5tf is the actual real world "flops" needed.

Based on that we can conclude the next consoles won't have GPU power equivalent to two 580s.

So when it comes to "Samaritan-level" graphics, we'd most likely see it at the 720p/30 like the OP shows. Which to me I think is still pretty awesome, but some don't have realistic expectations and would probably consider that underwhelming.
 
lmao at all the people in this thread saying they can't see a big difference in Samaritan.

When you consider that Samaritan was done in a very cinematic style with lots of close ups, camera cuts, different angles, and motion it isn't terribly impressive to me. Imagine playing the game with a static camera behind the main character and tell me what is being done that I should be blown away by. I'm not saying it could be done on a 360 or PS3, because it couldn't, but at the same time I don't see where six years of technological progression went toward. Bokeh lighting?

x3sphere said:
I don't know what you're expecting, photo realism? Graphics don't necessarily scale linearly with hardware advancements, diminishing returns are starting to kick in since we're out of the SD era. That said, I think the Samaritan demo is pretty impressive in that you can definitely tell it couldn't be done on a PS3 or 360. That was not the case with many Xbox games.

I think diminishing returns must have a lot to do with it. I can appreciate that it's not achievable on current hardware, but I don't feel like I'm seeing anything jaw-dropping that Crysis wasn't doing four years prior.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
4000 TFLOPs to hit the limits of human perception eh?

That's not too unfair. What is that... about 15 years of moores law increases?

Sounds about right.

In the mean time, they'll have to work on advanced AI systems to mediate animation systems.

And HMDs will roll around then. And Cloud systems will be really quite viable then.

Tim is quite wrong that the cloud won't provide a significant difference between console gaming and cloud gaming. It'll mean that we can have on the go gaming that is not just equivalent to, but better than a home experience - because of access to more spaces.

Geolocation gaming + AR should go together very well as well; replace objects in your environment with virtual objects and skins - go to a park and LARP to your hearts content, even while working out and getting fit doing it.
 
Sony will have to. They have no other eaningful differentiation. Xbox has Kinect, and however horrid we think it is, casuals buy into it enough for them to be able to do a Wii U+. sony on the other hand has jack shit. No casual controller, no new media format to bail them out. The question is, can they afford it or simply bow out?

Official confirmation here folks. PS4 will be a overpowered beast, and likely cause Sony to compete against the US government in losing money. It may seem sad but it's their only option.

:p
 
When you consider that Samaritan was done in a very cinematic style with lots of close ups, camera cuts, different angles, and motion it isn't terribly impressive to me. Imagine playing the game with a static camera behind the main character and tell me what is being done that I should be blown away by. I'm not saying it could be done on a 360 or PS3, because it couldn't, but at the same time I don't see where six years of technological progression went toward. Bokeh lighting?



I think diminishing returns must have a lot to do with it. I can appreciate that it's not achievable on current hardware, but I don't feel like I'm seeing anything jaw-dropping that Crysis wasn't doing four years prior.

Really? Crysis had some neat looking environments but I think the Samaritan models look better than any of the models in Crysis. The detail and lighting on the cop models was really great.

To my untrained eye anyhow.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
When you consider that Samaritan was done in a very cinematic style with lots of close ups, camera cuts, different angles, and motion it isn't terribly impressive to me. Imagine playing the game with a static camera behind the main character and tell me what is being done that I should be blown away by. I'm not saying it could be done on a 360 or PS3, because it couldn't, but at the same time I don't see where six years of technological progression went toward. Bokeh lighting?
It's not a game, it's a tech demo, hence the cinematic cuts, to display what it does up close, not to hide that it can't render the same way in normal game conditions. In this case, there are no normal conditions, since it's not a game as said already. What is being done has been explained by Epic themselves so look it up. Whether you like the visual result artistically or prefer Uncharted or Crysis or whatever else is completely irrelevant. Any game you do actually like the look of would also look a shitload better if it pushed the same polycounts, texture resolutions and technologies seen in Samaritan.
 

Sheikh

Banned
I completely agree with OrangeGray . The Demo was impressive when you consider it against current gen games ,but not something totally mindblowing when you think that it could be representative of a ps4/x720 game.
 
Really? Crysis had some neat looking environments but I think the Samaritan models look much better than any of the models in Crysis. The detail and lighting on the cop models was really great.

To my untrained eye anyhow.

I agree, but when putting the two side-by-side it's a give and take for me. In some regards I would say Crysis looks better at least from an aesthetic standpoint. Perhaps my expectations are just out of order but Samaritan doesn't look like it's running on technology six years ahead of the Gears of War franchise to me, which is probably a more fair comparison given their visual similarities. Like I said before, it looks like the kind of bump I'd expect from the Dreamcast to the Xbox rather than a full generation (+1 year, really) leap.

Alextended said:
It's not a game, it's a tech demo, hence the cinematic cuts, to display what it does up close, not to hide that it can't render the same way in normal game conditions. In this case, there are no normal conditions, since it's not a game as said already. What is being done has been explained by Epic themselves so look it up. Whether you like the visual result artistically or prefer Uncharted or Crysis or whatever else is completely irrelevant. Any game you do actually like the look of would also look a shitload better if it pushed the same polycounts, texture resolutions and technologies seen in Samaritan.

I understand that it's a tech demo, but that also gives it an edge up when comparing it to actual games, therefore pushing the favor unfairly toward Samaritan's advantage. I wasn't suggesting that they were trying to cover up blemishes. At any rate, I'll go look into specifically what's going on that I must be missing.

Super Smash Bro said:
Second opinion is that I think it almost looks worse than current gen

Don't lump me in with this man.
 
Rewatched Samaritan. Second opinion is that I think it almost looks worse than current gen (that uncanny valley kicking in, like how I could only focus on how awful the blow torch looked) but I can appreciate now that it us next gen.
 

AlStrong

Member
at the same time I don't see where six years of technological progression went toward.

Mostly just the fat G-Buffer/Deferred Shading + 4xMSAA @ 2560x1600. Oh and FP16 instead of RGBA8.

Their demonstration of Bokeh last year is mostly intended for cinematic purposes anyway, so I wouldn't expect that to be done in real-time/in-game.

edit:

If you saw the wireframe view of the tessellated head, you'd probably figure out that that level of tessellation is just nonsense for in-game situations (99.9% of the gaming audience wouldn't be able to run it), again a cinematic/offline render situation.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Rewatched Samaritan. Second opinion is that I think it almost looks worse than current gen (that uncanny valley kicking in, like how I could only focus on how awful the blow torch looked) but I can appreciate now that it us next gen.

No.

I'll be the first to admit that Samaritan is what really convinced me about the theory of diminishing returns. Now that we jumped from SD to HD I don't think the vast, vast majority of people who buy consoles will care that much about the graphical differences between this gen and next-gen. GAF may go nuts for it but let's be realistic--most people won't care.

But what you said about it being worse than current gen is insanity.
 
Mostly just the fat G-Buffer/Deferred Shading + 4xMSAA @ 2560x1600. Oh and FP16 instead of RGBA8.

If I may try to put this into layman's terms (I'm not sure if you were being sincere with this post or snarky)... this refers to lighting effects particularly geared toward shading, anti-jagginess, and the color palette? Am I hitting the right ballpark?
 
Rewatched Samaritan. Second opinion is that I think it almost looks worse than current gen (that uncanny valley kicking in, like how I could only focus on how awful the blow torch looked) but I can appreciate now that it us next gen.

original.jpg
 

Cartman86

Banned
To me Samaritan looks beautiful and if every game in the next generation has that level of polish and image quality we would be so lucky. Instead I worry were going to continue to see screen tearing, texture pop-in, static clothing, ugly lighting, unrealistic water effects, and even worse terrible texture filtering/aliasing/shimmering.
 
I agree, but when putting the two side-by-side it's a give and take for me. In some regards I would say Crysis looks better at least from an aesthetic standpoint. Perhaps my expectations are just out of order but Samaritan doesn't look like it's running on technology six years ahead of the Gears of War franchise to me, which is probably a more fair comparison given their visual similarities. Like I said before, it looks like the kind of bump I'd expect from the Dreamcast to the Xbox rather than a full generation (+1 year, really) leap.

Yeah I agree about Crysis having better aesthetics. The grimdark/brown/gritty aesthetic that so many devs flocked to this gen is pretty much visual diarrhea to me at this point. I will be sitting out on a lot of next gen games if the trend continues.

But yeah overall I kind of agree it's not such a noticeable jump as the move from ps2 to ps3 was. A leap of that magnitude in animation, AI and truly interactive environments are things that would truly revolutionize gaming, I think.
 

LOCK

Member
This is a relief now that all next gen consoles should have some form of Samaritan running on their systems.
 
Super Smash Troll

How am I trolling? The entire time, my eyes/thoughts kept catching on what looked off, which is a clear sign of the uncanny valley (when things get so close to photo realism that your instincts kick in a disquiet you when things aren't 100%).

Furthermore, what/who exactly would I be trolling? Samaritan fanboys? I'm confused.
 

TedNindo

Member
I'm sorry but the reflections, model detail, texture detail, the realism of the depth of field and motion blur, the lighting (dat sss), the cloth physics and those particles all look very impressive compared to current gen games. Do people expect next gen to look photorealistic?
 
If I wanted samaritan level graphics at 120fps so it would run smoothly on my 120hz monitor at 1920x1200 I would need over 11 TFLOPS? Do i get any AA with their calculation or does it mean no AA? any GPU's coming out this year that are over 11 TFLOPS or will I need a dual GPU setup?

edit I mean dual graphics card not dual gpu. I don't mind dual gpu on the same card.
 
Yeah I agree about Crysis having better aesthetics. The grimdark/brown/gritty aesthetic that so many devs flocked to this gen is pretty much visual diarrhea to me at this point. I will be sitting out on a lot of next gen games if the trend continues.

But yeah overall I kind of agree it's not such a noticeable jump as the move from ps2 to ps3 was. A leap of that magnitude in animation, AI and truly interactive environments are things that would truly revolutionize gaming, I think.

I am more than confident that we'll see a lot more emphasis on connectivity and the way we interact with games this coming gen than in any gen before and visuals will lose their claim to being the #1 reason for hardware revisions, but that's sort of off-topic. I think the big three know that the rest of the world could live with 360 level graphics for a long long time and that they are only appeasing the niche market of fanboys who need flame war fodder at this point.
 
So...with Epic willing to say that, does that mean a new console can do that? Which one?

They'll likely all be able to do it at 720P without any problem. Of course, this is under the assumption that the next three will be at a PS2/GC/XB level of parity with one another. We really can't be certain right now.
 

AlStrong

Member
If I may try to put this into layman's terms (I'm not sure if you were being sincere with this post or snarky)... this refers to lighting effects particularly geared toward shading, anti-jagginess, and the color palette? Am I hitting the right ballpark?

Well, UE3 pre-DX11 is essentially just a forward renderer, so the memory reqs per render pass are significantly lower (depth + single frame) whereas the full deferred shading buffers are at least 4 render targets + depth. On console, they typically don't use FP16 buffers either due to memory and the rate at which hardware processes said buffers (it's half-rate for FP16 vs RGBA8). (Depth remains 32-bit per pixel)

Samaritan was put together with the use of 4xMSAA in mind, so that quadruples the amount of per pixel data. Again, on console, we typically see a lack of MSAA (2x was used in earlier UE3 titles, but only for certain render passes, usually skipping it for post-processing and lighting/shading).

So... "6 years" of progress when comparing Samaritan to your typical UE3 console title has gone into three extra render targets, double the memory per buffer with a higher precision format, 4xMSAA for every buffer (including depth, and even the forward rendered passes for transparencies*), and several times the number of pixels. It's a big jump in memory and bandwidth reqs.

*Transparencies e.g. hair was supersampled with the 4xAA.

-------

Ultimately, Samaritan is just a tech demo with ludicrous settings.
 
Top Bottom