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[brad-t]

Which makes Nintendo crazy to put him in charge of Mario but thats OT.

A burden surely hoisted upon him without his input.

 

[PtM]

I always found it hilarious that even if a female character is strong and does lots of important stuff in the story, the moment she cries or gets kidnapped, all her accomplishments somehow vanish.
To me, this seems much more sexist and two-dimensional than having a strong female character cry.

And when and how often were you able to observe this?

I wish people would keep their gender politics out of my games.


Characters in Nintendo games have operated the same way for basically forever. They can have a natural evolution over time but just because people lose their shit over nothing doesn't mean that we can't have Zelda cry because her city just got destroyed while Link and herself are presumably on the run.

But gender politics are the natural evolution? Things don't change if nobody acts.

 

[The Boat]

And when and how often were you able to observe this?

But gender politics are the natural evolution? Things don't change if nobody acts.

Every time this subject is discussed? We *just* had big discussions over the simple fact that Zelda is crying in a trailer.

 

[Hermii]

A burden surely hoisted upon him without his input.

Good point, but they should at least let him be more creative with Mario storylines, which Im pretty sure they don't.

 

[FloweryMarston]

Good point, but they should at least let him be more creative with Mario storylines, which Im pretty sure they don't.

It wasn't just koizumi who gave the NPCs background, aonuma also did, as an example the whole story of pamela (the girl on ikana canyon with her father) was aonuma and he gave her that name because he was listening to bossa nova at the time. The story was fairly divided in events from clock town to koizumi and outside to aonuma.

Koizumi is also the guy who worked hard on mario 64 alongside tezuka and miyamoto, he loves the mario character and is the best choice to helm mario, while aonuma is the best choice to helm zelda.

He is now in the position that miyamoto was before, he is the boss of the software development team of nintendo, while also working as producer on 3D mario. If he is interested in more involved storylines, basically he doesn't need to answer anyone but himself.

BOTW and Mario Odyssey looks to me the ultimate games in their respective franchises, so i'm quite satisfied with how nintendo teams are being managed.

 

[zeldablue]

I remember having this discussion with you before, so I'll keep it brief

Zelda being kidnapped or needing to be rescued is obviously a staple of the series, it's not a matter of originality, it's a matter of keeping that tradition, that fairy tale cliché and that parallelism. I thought this was made very obvious with the emphasis on "you must rescue my daughter" or whatever in the latest BotW trailer. You are free not to like it of course.

Ganondorf is foreshadowed and shown much, much before the final fight. His lack of presence is as it always was because he has always been a puppet master and a goal to reach, not a regular presence like Ghirahim. As with many things regarding Zelda stories, people seem to miss a lot.

Oh and TP Zelda wasn't kidnapped, she swallowed her pride and surrendered herself to save the life of her kingdom's citizens and later sacrificed her magic or life force or whatever to save Midna. Which is kind of the same thing in a way, but the context of her altruism puts it into a different light.

You can focus on a few points that are series' staples that you don't like and keep wishing they go away, but that doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot more surrounding Zelda that has always been changing. She has always been a fighter and had an active role in the story in every single 3D Zelda except for MM, because she only makes a tiny appearance.

Oh and Marin is kidnapped at the end of the game too, just like Zelda in every 3D game.

Marin isn't kidnapped. She just gets placed on a bridge before the final dungeon. It's not like Dethl brought her into the Yoshi egg. :\

Also, while enjoying Twilight Princess, and understanding the build up to Ganondorf...it does not cover up the fact that the story was probably butchered by Miyamoto "upending the tea table." I feel like they could've done much better with Ganondorf in this game. He was definitely...lacking.

Also, why does she have to be kidnapped in every game, why not every other Zelda game? When Koizumi was around he always strayed away from the save the princess story. Mostly because it's not a story...it's a goal. And I feel like if he was still the one story-telling, we'd have Zeldas that didn't simply tell the same story every time.

"When you think about the whole "save the princess" storyline of games being one of Miyamoto's inventions, I don't think of that as a story so much as it is a goal. It's a way of creating a situation. There's not necessarily a buildup and a resolution of a deeper kind, like you'd find in a novel. It's just a situation that motivates the players. Lacking that kind of detailed nuance, that doesn't mean I'm not interested in a story at all. It's just that as a designer, my priorities are a little different. I tend to convey emotion in slightly different ways rather than just rely on the most obvious kind of narrative that we would think of when we think of storylines."

What Koizumi says here is exactly why I don't like Skyward Sword. And why I'm weary of the pitfalls that this new title may fall into with SS's director at the helm. If Zelda somehow manages to play an inactive role and be MIA for the majority of the game again...which I hope isn't the case, then they need to have some other, better characters with character developent to make Zelda's non-existence less annoying...Which would also prevent the story from feeling so short.

For Example: Tetra in Phantom Hourglass is a terrible character who only has like 3 lines of dialogue and gets kidnapped 3 times. Thankfully Linebeck is there and he is actually an interesting character with character growth.

 

[PtM]

Every time this subject is discussed? We *just* had big discussions over the simple fact that Zelda is crying in a trailer.

I don't think anyone made any final judgements on that.
I can say for myself, I haven't seen her catching the laser, and Aonuma sounds like he's aware of what impression the trailer might give, so I'm going to trust him on his word. I still expect minor missteps like that girly run or other anime cliches, but what can you do?

 

[brad-t]

Good point, but they should at least let him be more creative with Mario storylines, which Im pretty sure they don't.

Why do you think that?

 

[The Boat]

Marin isn't kidnapped. She just gets placed on a bridge before the final dungeon. It's not like Dethl brought her into the Yoshi egg. :\

Also, while enjoying Twilight Princess, and understanding the build up to Ganondorf...it does not cover up the fact that the story was probably butchered by Miyamoto "upending the tea table." I feel like they could've done much better with Ganondorf in this game. He was definitely...lacking.

Also, why does she have to be kidnapped in every game, why not every other Zelda game? When Koizumi was around he always strayed away from the save the princess story. Mostly because it's not a story...it's a goal. And I feel like if he was still the one story-telling, we'd have Zeldas that didn't simply tell the same story every time.

"When you think about the whole "save the princess" storyline of games being one of Miyamoto's inventions, I don't think of that as a story so much as it is a goal. It's a way of creating a situation. There's not necessarily a buildup and a resolution of a deeper kind, like you'd find in a novel. It's just a situation that motivates the players. Lacking that kind of detailed nuance, that doesn't mean I'm not interested in a story at all. It's just that as a designer, my priorities are a little different. I tend to convey emotion in slightly different ways rather than just rely on the most obvious kind of narrative that we would think of when we think of storylines."

What Koizumi says here is exactly why I don't like Skyward Sword. And why I'm weary of the pitfalls that this new title may fall into with SS's director at the helm. If Zelda somehow manages to play an inactive role and be MIA for the majority of the game again...which I hope isn't the case, then they need to have some other, better characters with character developent to make Zelda's non-existence less annoying...Which would also prevent the story from feeling so short.

For Example: Tetra in Phantom Hourglass is a terrible character who only has like 3 lines of dialogue and gets kidnapped 3 times. Thankfully Linebeck is there and he is actually an interesting character with character growth.

Marin is literally kidnapped by monsters and placed in a broken bridge on a mountain top with no way of escaping.

She doesn't *need* to get kidnapped, it's just a staple they choose to keep. You may not like it, but you're focusing on your pet peeves and wishlists and ignoring everything else. SS' Zelda is the most active Zelda in any game in the series and the one with the most character development (perhaps ST's Zelda can be in the running too), just because you're not seeing her doing stuff all the time means nothing, in fact you spend most of the game trying to catch up to her because she's doing her own thing instead of cowering and waiting to be rescued, they even show her quest in the end credits.

Your insistence on "Zelda's non-existence" and initial claim that Ganondorf just shows up at the end tells me that what you want is exposition with them showing up more frequently.
This never was Zelda's MO (besides ST where Zelda is a sidekick), it's always about Link's relatively solitary adventure and the story from his point of view.
It's about how the whole world seems to rest on this apparently unimportant boy's shoulders, while both Zelda and Ganondorf usually only show up sporadically as they are big, important, powerful figures that contrast with Link's humble beginnings and progression up until the final act. Twilight Princess is the perfect example of this.

Indeed Zelda/Tetra is terrible in PH, which is why I specifically mentioned 3D Zeldas. She's fantastic in ST though.

And yes, Zelda's kidnapping is not the story, it's used as a motivation or goal (although in 3D Zeldas this always happens only in the final chapter, you actual goal is to save the world), which is why it makes even less sense to focus on that detail when every Zelda in 3D games gets shit done.

I don't think anyone made any final judgements on that.
I can say for myself, I haven't seen her catching the laser, and Aonuma sounds like he's aware of what impression the trailer might give, so I'm going to trust him on his word. I still expect minor missteps like that girly run or other anime cliches, but what can you do?

I don't know if their judgement is final because I can't see into the future, but all you need to do is pop into a thread where this is discussed to see what I mean. This applies to other Zelda games (or plenty of other games), not just BotW.

 

[Hermii]

Why do you think that?

When Miyamoto won't let the paper Mario devs do anything outside of toads, I think the main series is even stricter. Also I remember from the galaxy iwata asks that koizumi had to hide rosalinas storyline from Miyamoto to get it in the game.

 

[zeldablue]

Your insistence on "Zelda's non-existence" and initial claim that Ganondorf just shows up at the end tells me that what you want is exposition with them showing up more frequently.
This never was Zelda's MO (besides ST where Zelda is a sidekick), it's always about Link's relatively solitary adventure and the story from his point of view.
It's about how the whole world seems to rest on this apparently unimportant boy's shoulders, while both Zelda and Ganondorf usually only show up sporadically as they are big, important, powerful figures that contrast with Link's humble beginnings and progression up until the final act. Twilight Princess is the perfect example of this.

So I guess you didn't think the story-telling in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword was lacking...?

The fact that most of SS's story was happening off-screen and Link was playing a game of catch up and "Sorry you're princess is in another castle" only bothered me?

SS's issues could've been solved by Zelda leaving Link letters hidden throughout the land. The heavy exposition could've been solved by showing artifacts and ruins of what the surface used to be (They did this a little bit with the ancient robots in the sand ocean section) ...They could've done so much to actually build out that story within the actual game, but they didn't.

TP is a different story, because although Ganondorf and Zelda weren't in the spotlight...the story was shifting enough for it to not matter. The beginning is about saving the kids, then you save the kids. Then the story is about helping Midna, then you help Midna and finally the game transitions into same ole' same ole'. In my opinion...this was a better story simply because it felt like it was moving along. There were objectives and mini goals along the way that SS lacked.

Spirit Tracks was a surprisingly great way of showing the Link and Zelda duo. When I finished the game and started SS I was shocked to find a frumpy soundtrack that wasn't nearly as catchy as ST's OST and a Zelda that almost exclusively existed in cutscenes.

I dunno. I guess I'm just talking. I see that Aonuma sees the flaws of SS and I think he'll do what he can to address all of SS's failings while hopefully not overcompensating.

 

[The Boat]

So I guess you didn't think the story-telling in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword was lacking...?

The fact that most of SS's story was happening off-screen and Link was playing a game of catch up and "Sorry you're princess is in another castle" only bothered me?

SS's issues could've been solved by Zelda leaving Link letters hidden throughout the land. The heavy exposition could've been solved by showing artifacts and ruins of what the surface used to be (They did this a little bit with the ancient robots in the sand ocean section) ...They could've done so much to actually build out that story within the actual game, but they didn't.

TP is a different story, because although Ganondorf and Zelda weren't in the spotlight...the story was shifting enough for it to not matter. The beginning is about saving the kids, then you save the kids. Then the story is about helping Midna, then you help Midna and finally the game transitions into same ole' same ole'. In my opinion...this was a better story simply because it felt like it was moving along. There were objectives and mini goals along the way that SS lacked.

Spirit Tracks was a surprisingly great way of showing the Link and Zelda duo. When I finished the game and started SS I was shocked to find a frumpy soundtrack that wasn't nearly as catchy as ST's OST and a Zelda that almost exclusively existed in cutscenes.

I dunno. I guess I'm just talking. I see that Aonuma sees the flaws of SS and I think he'll do what he can to address all of SS's failings while hopefully not overcompensating.

No I don't agree at all, but hey, to each one its own

 

[Servbot24]

So female link actually was a possibility at some time? ok

Devs consider millions of things. 99% of ideas for every game ever made are on the cutting room floor.

 

[zeldablue]

No I don't agree at all, but hey, to each one its own

D'aww...okay.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...I hope there are interesting story beats, narrative placed within the game itself and an ending I can't easily predict.

I don't think that's a crazy ask. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[The Boat]

D'aww...okay.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...I hope there are interesting story beats, narrative placed within the game itself and an ending I can't easily predict.

I don't think that's a crazy ask. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Seems fair to me!
EDIT: I bet Link will save the world, killing/sealing Ganon and it will end on a bittersweet note as usual It's not about the destination, it's the journey.

 

[Easy_D]

Koizumi is a story nut. He's the guy who gave the NPCs in MM all their little backstories.

So you're saying story mode will return for F-Zero SX, good to know!

 

[The Boat]

So you're saying story mode will return for F-Zero SX, good to know!

I don't think they would go for that name.