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EVO 2K13 Player's Choice: Donate money to breast cancer and get your favorite game in
- Thread starter El Sloth
- Start date
I think there are barriers for women to play fighters. For one, Capcom needs to stop giving all the female characters low health.
This is SFXTK before ver. 2013 and w/out DLC characters. And I'm sure similar charts can be made for Marvel, SFIV and other games.
I didn't mean it as anything offensive. I think it's a legitimate issue in game design. But if others rather not talk about it, then I'm fine with that.
tiggerkiddo
Member
It's a really annoying issue, I wish they would correct it. Has it always been this way?
Delusibeta
Banned
Eh. It's the usual agility/health trade-off, and women in fighting games almost always are on the agility side of the scale. If there was a woman in a fighting game that was built like Hugo and yet still had low health, then yeah I'd agree with you on there being a problem here.
WesternHeretic
Member
DSP didn't want to step to Jaha and take it outside, but then again Jaha is a Basegod.
I don't think Capcom has any bias to men/women when it comes to health. It just female are by average smaller than male.
Look at She Hulk for example she has plenty of health because it fit her character. I don't know how you can justify a character like Cammy to have the health of a Hugo or Gief.
Professor Beef
Banned
Yes, because of the style that they play. If male characters played like Chun or female characters played like Gief, then the life totals would look similar still.
It is nothing more than a balancing aspect, and is not exclusive to women. If there is really a complaint to be made about varying health, make it about Capcom sticking to character archetypes, such that varying health has to be included. Ask why Capcom doesn't make the female equivalent of Zangief, Hugo, or T-Hawk.
But to say that women are given health nerfs just because they are women is a completely ridiculous argument and I am sick to death of seeing it, especially because its usually nothing more than thinly-veiled bitching about their character of choice not being as good as they would like them to be.
But to say that women are given health nerfs just because they are women is a completely ridiculous argument and I am sick to death of seeing it, especially because its usually nothing more than thinly-veiled bitching about their character of choice not being as good as they would like them to be.
That's kinda silly, since they usually make up for it by being more mobile and harder to hit.
Then again, nothing's stopping Capcom from creating a character like Angela Belti from Power Instinct, and even then I don't see that appealing to female players more than any other character.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
partyphone
Banned
the real problem with that list is just the number of characters.
I don't think the agility argument works. I use Nina in SFXTK and there is no reason for her to have 900 health. She is most certainly not as agile as characters like Lili, Juri and others. And then on the male side you have characters like Hwoarang and Law who are most definitely very agile and yet carry 1000 health.
Maybe the design philosophy didn't have any male/female bias. I don't know. I don't want to work on presumptions so I'll leave it at that. Didn't mean to start an argument.
Maybe the design philosophy didn't have any male/female bias. I don't know. I don't want to work on presumptions so I'll leave it at that. Didn't mean to start an argument.
I think there are barriers for women to play fighters. For one, Capcom needs to stop giving all the female characters low health.
This is SFXTK before ver. 2013 and w/out DLC characters. And I'm sure similar charts can be made for Marvel, SFIV and other games.
I joke about the tax as well, but outside of Makoto, the health is fine. It reflects their agile nature and general versatility. With the exception of Asuka, all the females are upper mid even at their current stats.
Professor Beef
Banned
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Dhalsim has a vagina tax too :'(
Wait a sec...
Wait a sec...
Owlowiscious
Member
How can you just not include Makoto and Asuka when they're perfect examples of what's happening? Female characters can only be low health agility types. Strong females can't have equally strong health as males. Males can have every type of every spectrum.
Because they did buff Makoto's hp up to a 1000 for super and then dropped her back down to 950. Whether the ability to alter her jump arc via her air axe kick is worth 50 hit points isn't a static answer. It changes as they try to balance the characters against other characters that were also changed. Ditto for Asuka, I think she is terrible and was terrible, but 2013 just came out 4 days ago.
And as others have noted Capcom has had high health females. Julia has 1000, She-Hulk has 1.1 M, Tron had over a 1M, etc.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Kuma should have more health than Hugo, he's a goddam bear for yogi's sake!
Slamtastic
Member
Unequal health is dumb anyway.
KoF and VF don't have it.
KoF and VF don't have it.
riskVSreward
Member
It isnt dumb at all, it allows for more interesting characters and styles.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Well KoF arguably doesn't have a true grapple character archetype represented in its games
Instead grab characters for the most part have good normals that can combo into all their throws and everyone has pretty similar movement options with the hop mechanic
Not really
just happens when you're using the same characters from 25 years ago and pulling popular characters from across many different games where the popular females were that character type
but like others have said they have created new female characters with high health.
cj_iwakura
Member
I'm tempted, but... eh. Flying across the country to get mutilated at SF and P4A when the only game I'm good at(BB) isn't even a tournament.
Owlowiscious
Member
Looking at the chart I'd say 1000 is normal health. But thanks for the clarification looks like I misinterpreted your previous post.
I don't think you're looked too closely at KoF grappler movesets.
Daimon alone has things like a grounded anti-air throw and one that works on tripped/fallen opponents, a special roll that pretty much exists to get in close to throw directly (almost sure it can be drive cancelled into his special and super throws in XIII), and if you look at more characters and games in the series outside XIII you'll find even more grappler specificities.
There'll e side tournaments.
That Dude John
Member
That would be so cool to go one of these years.
I think he is referring to how grapplers in KoF aren't the limited grapplers of SF. Being able to combo into command grabs, roll, anti-air, zone and strike is something that none of the SF characters can do.
Grapplers in KoF don't need the extra health. Zangief, on the other hand, is expected to give up a 1/3 of his health just to walk the opponent into the corner.
tiggerkiddo
Member
I planned to go this year but my schedule prevents me participating in local tournaments which has kinda killed any interested I've had in fighting games...hmmm well I'll just watch this year! Maybe next year things will luck out!
Julia HAD 1000 hp. Now it's 950. Makoto HAD 1000 hp. Now it's 950.
Capcom has toyed with the idea of giving female characters average hp, but rarely leave it that way. Nobody is arguing that no female characters should have below-average health, but the reluctance on Capcom's part is clear and refusing to acknowledge this is silly.
Capcom has toyed with the idea of giving female characters average hp, but rarely leave it that way. Nobody is arguing that no female characters should have below-average health, but the reluctance on Capcom's part is clear and refusing to acknowledge this is silly.
SolarPowered
Member
Maybe you guys should just look for a fighting game where the ladies have better health?
I still look at Melee as half and half. It just turned into something that no one could really predict through years of trial and error(thanks to you smash guys). No way Nintendo had any idea Melee could turn into what we have seen at Apex again and again. Sakurai has some real disdain for his smash fans, it seems.
I think I'd rather go with Cerebella. :X
Neato
I still look at Melee as half and half. It just turned into something that no one could really predict through years of trial and error(thanks to you smash guys). No way Nintendo had any idea Melee could turn into what we have seen at Apex again and again. Sakurai has some real disdain for his smash fans, it seems.
Don't forget Morrigan. She is definitely above average in MvC3.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not saying they don't have grappler movesets
but they have options that the character type wouldn't have in other games to where they don't need the extra health.
edit: sleepykyo better with words than I am
Characters deserve to be better than DeeJay.
Every female char in the game is better than DeeJay
I think it's a matter of KoF giving more defensive and movement options (the major one, rolling, being something particularly vulnerable to grapplers) for characters in general, while something like SF seems to prioritize offense - which makes it strange that it remained so, when the most famous SF moment ever grew from one of the more interesting defensive systems in the series.
Outside the 2D stuff, I've found DoA to be the most satidfying game to use grapplers in, and for someone who specializes in those characters it must be great to succeed at a hold you can combo throw from.
Professor Beef
Banned
How do you equate that?
How so? Look at any game and you sacrifice hit points for speed. Recons aren't as tanky as heavy arms in FPS games, the fastest cars or the ones with the best cornering ability usually have lower weight and are susceptible to all the vagaries of being a lower weight class, in MMOs based on skill point allotment instead of levels you are going to have a hard time putting points into agility attributes and tank at the same time unless you want to lose out heavily on DPS/Control.
Capcom's decision to couch that paradigm into gender roles is another matter but it's understandable why most games avoid mixing in speed with strength.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
Chun and Rose. Otherwise I agree.
Tools they have (generally more than chars that have more health than they do), speed (generally faster than chars that have more health than they do), damage (this is the oddity of SF4...straying from character archetypes the females generally do MORE damage than males), and size (smaller characters have numerous hitbox advantages over larger chars)
So I guess blatant bitching about their character of choice not being as good as they would like them to be okay in your book
please don't kill me threi