Mammoth Jones
Member
Exactly.
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Ex-Green Beret Nate Boyer writes open letter to Trump, Kaepernick, NFL and America
- Thread starter Cybit
- Start date
Exactly.
All of this
See my edit
I agree with you.
We need to elect representatives that are more afraid of upsetting those that vote them in than anyone else.
Like, it's so fucking frustrating, a third of the league can be sitting in protest and Jerry Jones will sit there with a big grin on his stupid face and pretend to be progressive, then threaten to fire anyone who does it again, but the moment a Tom Brady, an Aaron Rodgers, fuck an Alex Smith join in on the protest, well THEN it's suddenly validated.
Because the words of most of your black players means less than one white QB.
Man, fuck the NFL.
Remember when Trump said he was gonna send the FBI to Chicago to "get the job done"?
Hmm hmm hmm hmmrph.
CoolestSpot
Banned
Yeah. I was saying "When" meaning it was highly unlikely. It's "Marvel What-If" unlikely.
I looked it up and he's done some protesting and messaging about it, but really, every player should be taking a knee imo. I know the must be getting threats from those in charge and they'd get some serious heat for it, but damn, just do it.
RedAssedApe
Banned
nate boyer doesn't get it. he'll be praised for this letter by some though cuz "both sides"
"A white man tried. Everyone clap".
And he did try, I'm sure he's a good person.
He's just...wrong here.
CoolestSpot
Banned
Well, of course. Right now it's those black people protesting about their black issues disrespecting a time the country is supposed to be coming together, and entertaining the people, and in general not being grateful for having the chance to make the money they've been earning.
Or at least, that's the effed up sick rhetoric being spouted right now. All their arguments have to shift though once a white person of note (is of "of note" even a requirement...?) takes a knee.
Raylan Targaryen
Member
Our existence drives them nuts. They might not all be as blatant as Trump but they have the same mindset. If you're "non-racist" yet continue to support republicans that means at best you value a tax cut for the rich over the lives of your fellow Americans. At that point you're a bigger piece of shit than the blatant racists. At least they are not afraid to hide who they are or stand idly by.
Anyone that mentions the concept of both sides should be forced to eat a bucket of maggot infested shit.
That says more about the people and society. That a black man silently kneeling would drive you to be a racist, you were probably already there.
YURP.
Imagine that shit...
I'm not saying all republicans are racist. The fact that current supporters of this administration support a vile man is a conversation in and of itself. What I'm saying is we have a frightening resurgence of Nazism and White Supremacy emboldened by the very president all those not-racist people voted for and folks would rather bitch about a Black man peacefully kneeling. But they're not racist. I mean ok, but it'd be easier to believe you if you'd actually address the Nazi's, White Supremacists, and police brutality going on. Fucking amazing some can't see this.
it pains me so much that some of my Jewish brothers and sisters lack perspective on this issue
never mind almost all of us are in America because our families fled Europe before and during WWII
I just don't understand people who view past events in a certain light and then lack perspective on events happening now in real time
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Indeed. If a protest bothers you more than what's being protested, you're already on a side.
The wrong one.
It's worth remembering that this "issue" was entirely constructed by Trump. The impulse to tell both sides to get together and talk and stop being so mad all the time is an understandable one, laudable in many circumstances, but... there's nothing to get together about here. Not with Trump, at any rate.
Kaepernick's protest was a year ago. You might remember it, we still had a President at the time. Kaep didn't make a big fuss about it, but said when asked that he didn't want to stand up for a nation that oppresses people of color, in particular calling out police killing black people. Ok, so far so good, people flipped out because it's bad to say that cops shouldn't murder people and it's bad not to stand for the flag because flag good country good troops good president good (wait oops not yet president born in kenya president bad). Nobody met with Kaep, nothing changed, he got blacklisted from the NFL, happy ending.
Ok, now it's a year later. For some reason we put a stupid ignorant oversensitive narcissistic lunatic in charge of the country. He campaigned on hatred of non-white people, hasn't done anything to help people of color, has in fact tried very hard to screw over people of color from various places. And a black person from an NBA team doesn't want to come shake his hand for a photo op.
Uh-oh! Remember, Trump is an oversensitive loser. He can't let people get away with criticizing him or even just not thinking he's great. So he first tries to do a "no you don't quit you're fired" routine on Curry, then when LeBron James clowns the shit out of him he goes for a full-on deflection and pivots back to Kaep from a year ago. Why? Because there's a tangential relation in that the NBA and NFL are both sports, and, here's the important thing, because while nobody cares about personal criticism of Trump as much as Trump does, a lot of people get really mad about flags and troops and shit.
And it totally worked! He harped on it so much that NFL players basically had to respond. And that was that. He successfully pivoted from famous black people criticizing Trump personally for what he's said and done to famous black people HATING THE FLAG OH NO WHAT ABOUT THE TROOPS. Nobody even remembers that this all started because Steph Curry didn't want to meet Trump.
So... what is there for both sides to talk about? Even if Trump were capable of listening or understanding, the entire thing is something he created to distract from people criticizing him. If both sides were honest, here's how the conversation would go.
Kaep: I want cops to stop murdering black people and getting away with it
Trump: I want it to be illegal for people to say mean things about me
Where's the middle ground?
Kaepernick's protest was a year ago. You might remember it, we still had a President at the time. Kaep didn't make a big fuss about it, but said when asked that he didn't want to stand up for a nation that oppresses people of color, in particular calling out police killing black people. Ok, so far so good, people flipped out because it's bad to say that cops shouldn't murder people and it's bad not to stand for the flag because flag good country good troops good president good (wait oops not yet president born in kenya president bad). Nobody met with Kaep, nothing changed, he got blacklisted from the NFL, happy ending.
Ok, now it's a year later. For some reason we put a stupid ignorant oversensitive narcissistic lunatic in charge of the country. He campaigned on hatred of non-white people, hasn't done anything to help people of color, has in fact tried very hard to screw over people of color from various places. And a black person from an NBA team doesn't want to come shake his hand for a photo op.
Uh-oh! Remember, Trump is an oversensitive loser. He can't let people get away with criticizing him or even just not thinking he's great. So he first tries to do a "no you don't quit you're fired" routine on Curry, then when LeBron James clowns the shit out of him he goes for a full-on deflection and pivots back to Kaep from a year ago. Why? Because there's a tangential relation in that the NBA and NFL are both sports, and, here's the important thing, because while nobody cares about personal criticism of Trump as much as Trump does, a lot of people get really mad about flags and troops and shit.
And it totally worked! He harped on it so much that NFL players basically had to respond. And that was that. He successfully pivoted from famous black people criticizing Trump personally for what he's said and done to famous black people HATING THE FLAG OH NO WHAT ABOUT THE TROOPS. Nobody even remembers that this all started because Steph Curry didn't want to meet Trump.
So... what is there for both sides to talk about? Even if Trump were capable of listening or understanding, the entire thing is something he created to distract from people criticizing him. If both sides were honest, here's how the conversation would go.
Kaep: I want cops to stop murdering black people and getting away with it
Trump: I want it to be illegal for people to say mean things about me
Where's the middle ground?
theCalamity
Member
I get it. You want a 3/5s compromise
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Anyone who uses the phrase "outrage culture" with a straight face isn't even worth talking to.
Fenderputty
Banned
If feel like he assumes everyone who's against the kneeling is doing so from the moderate republican standpoint where people root for their side. The right has picked their side in this debate and so people come home. In this case he makes some sense. Politics definitely has a sports elements to it. People love rooting for their home team.
This assumption seems faulty though. How many people reflexively vote republican and in turn are complicit in voting for racists? How many people are actively voting for racists? There's some middle ground in the first group and no middle group in the latter group. Trump does not represent the moderate republican where some middle ground could potential be found either. He's the result of the latter group propelling him through the GOP primary.
So like ... it's less ton def than his first letter, but still an over all tone def reading of the current events.
This assumption seems faulty though. How many people reflexively vote republican and in turn are complicit in voting for racists? How many people are actively voting for racists? There's some middle ground in the first group and no middle group in the latter group. Trump does not represent the moderate republican where some middle ground could potential be found either. He's the result of the latter group propelling him through the GOP primary.
So like ... it's less ton def than his first letter, but still an over all tone def reading of the current events.
The Driver
Member
Respect to this guys service in our armed forces but the privilege coming off of this makes my blood boil.
Sometimes I wonder if the same systemic societal issues that have plagued nurses and teachers and other public servant type jobs for decades have also applied to the police. They have high stress / high risk jobs that they get paid shit for, that they get blamed for shit that's not usually their fault, and so the people you want in that job don't go, and the quality of your workforce goes dramatically down in the following generation. Because the quality of the workforce goes down, obvious societal consequences occur, and then everyone points the finger at everyone else. I mean, in the US, usually if we want better people to go into a field, we pay people more in that field. However, no one (ok, republicans) seems to want to do that.
After turnout this year and specifically which groups didn't turn out; I'm stunned Obama didn't flat out leave politics. We had it so good with him, and it's gonna take a couple of more presidents before we realize how lucky we were to have him.
Bingo. In my lifetime, somewhere along the way it seemed that US society shifted from trying to fix problems to trying to fix the optics of the problem. School shootings, TSA, sexual assault on campus, there are a whole host of major problems where the quickest and best-looking solution were taken to get people off the topic and minimize actual change to the system. Stuff like body cameras can help initially; but often what it does it just move the problem from one pressure point to another. We don't like doing things that take long and require actual sacrifice - and that's on all political fronts. (FFS; see voting in 2016)
Which is why I'm a fan of getting it the heck away from sports and the NFL. We let Trump change the battleground and we are too stubborn to change the battleground rather than keep fighting him on his terms. Screw kneeling at a fucking football game, maybe marching on DC repeatedly is what we should be doing. Whatever we're doing right now isn't doing anything, full stop. We can talk about it and be all self-righteous about it and call people racists and bigots and all that shit, but the status quo is the same fucking place it's been.
(There's a soapbox rant about how I think some of the lack of progress is deliberate sabotage on our side - but that's a different story)
After the Matt Damon / Jason Momoa threads in OT, I think there's legitimate uses of Outrage Culture here. As always, it comes down to context and intent.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Exactly.
Also. If people are against kneeling because police brutality isn't happening, then they should be making that argument.
So if it were happening, it would make sense to kneel then?
So, it's either about kneeling no matter the cause or about no police brutality. Can't have it both ways.
the-pi-guy
Member
Step1: Get conservatives to come to the middle.
Step2: stay where you are.
Step3: go to step 1.
Step4: profit.
Frankly the biggest thing the letter shows is how little some people understand the issues...
Step2: stay where you are.
Step3: go to step 1.
Step4: profit.
Frankly the biggest thing the letter shows is how little some people understand the issues...
I'll be blunt, the letter was terrible. You would have thought after sitting down with Kaepernick, Mr. Boyer would have put some effort into understanding the plight of Black people in this country and an unchecked police force that kills its citizens with impunity. Mr. Boyer does not have any right to ask Kaepernick to sit down with Trump if he doesn't even want to try to understand the dire circumstances that leave my brothers and sisters dead, even if an entire incident is caught on camera.
There aren't two sides to this issue. Only complacency and white supremacy and the former might as well be a co-conspirator to the latter.
Mr. Boyer should be putting responsibility where it needs to be put. On the President of the United States instead of a man who is blacklisted for standing up for civil rights. On the football fans who see players as nothing more than modern day slaves, who shouldn't stand up for those who are voiceless just because they get paid for their work.
Boyer had a great opportunity to toss a winning pass to the responsible parties, and he fumbled it. It's disappointing that he would not put in 1/10th of the effort to research what cost Kaepernick his job. If he can take a knee as a sign of respect for the military, you could at least give the same courtesy to research the struggles that Black Americans face.
There aren't two sides to this issue. Only complacency and white supremacy and the former might as well be a co-conspirator to the latter.
Mr. Boyer should be putting responsibility where it needs to be put. On the President of the United States instead of a man who is blacklisted for standing up for civil rights. On the football fans who see players as nothing more than modern day slaves, who shouldn't stand up for those who are voiceless just because they get paid for their work.
Boyer had a great opportunity to toss a winning pass to the responsible parties, and he fumbled it. It's disappointing that he would not put in 1/10th of the effort to research what cost Kaepernick his job. If he can take a knee as a sign of respect for the military, you could at least give the same courtesy to research the struggles that Black Americans face.
Good grief.
I generally fall in line with GAF's politics, but just from reading this thread he has a bit of a point. Some segments of the left are almost as unable / unwilling to admit they're not 100% correct as the crazy right wing nut jobs. Or they're just yelling too loud to ever hear any other perspectives. C'mon GAF, be better than this.
In b4 "BUT THEY'RE NAZIS"
I generally fall in line with GAF's politics, but just from reading this thread he has a bit of a point. Some segments of the left are almost as unable / unwilling to admit they're not 100% correct as the crazy right wing nut jobs. Or they're just yelling too loud to ever hear any other perspectives. C'mon GAF, be better than this.
In b4 "BUT THEY'RE NAZIS"
MugiwaraCole
Member
Raylan Targaryen
Member
You're right we should just be good ol slaves
Via Purifico
Banned
No he doesn't. There's no reasoning with people who want to kill you, we need to stop the finger wagging.
I empathize with people who are distraught at the divide in this country. But what exactly does "unity" look like? What does the "middle ground" look like?
People like Colin Kaepernick are practically already at the "middle ground". They acknowledge that most cops are not bad people, and that it's the institution of American policing that is corrupt and needs reformation. They don't have a beef with the troops or the white race, as illustrated by Colin's willingness to listen to Nate Boyer's request to kneel instead of sit. And it's still not enough for the bigots.
Obama was already at the "middle ground". He frequently compromised his personal views for the sake of bipartisanship. He was an exemplary model of reaching across the aisle and trying to unite the "two sides". And what did he get for it? Accusations of socialism, trying to take away people's guns, etc.
Liberals have been nominating and electing centrists for decades. Conservatives nominated and elected an extremist in response.
People like Colin Kaepernick are practically already at the "middle ground". They acknowledge that most cops are not bad people, and that it's the institution of American policing that is corrupt and needs reformation. They don't have a beef with the troops or the white race, as illustrated by Colin's willingness to listen to Nate Boyer's request to kneel instead of sit. And it's still not enough for the bigots.
Obama was already at the "middle ground". He frequently compromised his personal views for the sake of bipartisanship. He was an exemplary model of reaching across the aisle and trying to unite the "two sides". And what did he get for it? Accusations of socialism, trying to take away people's guns, etc.
Liberals have been nominating and electing centrists for decades. Conservatives nominated and elected an extremist in response.
He doesn't have a point. If a person wants to talk about partisanship, the subject of police brutality is not a starting point. He isn't talking about getting money out of politics here.
Tell me why he didn't put forth a modicum of effort to research police brutality? The bar was set 3 feet below the ground and Boyer still trips over it. It's inexcusable.
Aaronology
Member
"Some segments"? Which segments? People in this thread, you mean? Why not specifically address these people then instead of this cowardly, passive aggressive critique. "Other perspectives"? What other perspectives aren't being considered? Which valid viewpoints held by Nazis, the Alt Right and white supremacists are being lost in the noise, Piano?
Please. Elaborate.
Just_myles
Member
Kneecapping? An ass-whoopin?
Step 1: Get left leaning non-voters to vote.
Step 2: Ignore all conservatives, because they're not moving anywhere close to the middle.
Step 3: Watch history shut the door on the people from step 2.
Explain to us what the other perspective is on: "We want equal justice when dealing with law enforcement."
I think this guy's an idiot.
At the start I thought he'd actually make a powerful point and then he lost the plot. Kaepernick doesn't have any power, he can't unite anyone. He's already publicly said he'd stand if given the chance to play again. He's out. It's not even about him anymore.
The whole debate is insane because people shouldn't be forced to stand for the anthem, they should want to, and if they don't want to the answer's not to force them but to ask how you can make a country where they too would want to stand, and if their desire's within our power to do it. That's real patriotism and that's real respect for the flag, troops and anthem. There's no more respect given to the flag by being forced to stand than there is kneeling, in neither case does the person "respect" the thing so at that point it's not about respect at all.
At the start I thought he'd actually make a powerful point and then he lost the plot. Kaepernick doesn't have any power, he can't unite anyone. He's already publicly said he'd stand if given the chance to play again. He's out. It's not even about him anymore.
The whole debate is insane because people shouldn't be forced to stand for the anthem, they should want to, and if they don't want to the answer's not to force them but to ask how you can make a country where they too would want to stand, and if their desire's within our power to do it. That's real patriotism and that's real respect for the flag, troops and anthem. There's no more respect given to the flag by being forced to stand than there is kneeling, in neither case does the person "respect" the thing so at that point it's not about respect at all.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
It's pretty clear from your post that you didn't actually read the thread.
MugiwaraCole
Member
Yo. Fam. What the fuck are you talking about?
If protesting offends someone to the point of not wanting to condemn racism, they were already a racist.
Any other perspectives? What are the other perspectives in this?
MugiwaraCole
Member
Who standing on the side of wanting equality isn't 100% correct?
Byakuya769
Member
None of the people suggesting compromise or complaining about the protests are interested in the subject of the protests. That's why they keep talking about the form, so there's no room to talk about the subject. The moment you ask one of them what compromise should be, they vanish like smoke.
That's cool. I feel being against the right to protest, especially peacefully is unamerican. The blood of the country began with protest and was fueled by the backs of black labour and pain. The optics of unity and togetherness are more important than actual equality and being United from treason and tyrany. Playing both sides after what's been going on this year just makes you look uninformed and blind to the plight of the "love" you think more than one side is trying to achieve.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Exactly. I asked repeatedly in this very thread and no one seemed willing to give a response.
Which is why I reject that "both sides" bullshit. My kid is gleefully playing in her room right now completely oblivious how hated she is by some in this nation and how completely indifferent to the issues she'll have when she gets older by most of mainstream flag loving America.
quickwhips
Member
Fuck this guy. Lets be honest Colin was kneeling because he wanted to start a discussion. Its not about winning and everyone keeps trying to change what the kneel means and that is bullshit.
TeddyShardik
Banned
As someone said before me: return to sender.
There is no compromise on this issue. You're either right or you're wrong.
I'm not American so maybe I'm presumptious here but I can only support the side that is peacefully trying to get across the message of "don't kill me if you're having a bad day."
I'm German and my people just voted in some far right fucks into parliament after the longest time. That's in a country where "never again" has become a mantra.
There is no compromise on this issue. You're either right or you're wrong.
I'm not American so maybe I'm presumptious here but I can only support the side that is peacefully trying to get across the message of "don't kill me if you're having a bad day."
I'm German and my people just voted in some far right fucks into parliament after the longest time. That's in a country where "never again" has become a mantra.