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[Kagari]

And if you keep on repeating that to yourself, you will continue to reinforce this belief. And, continue to spread it. You are mistaken in your interpretation.

I covered this part. Tabata changed the name because the character was already a bastardization of Nomura's vision. It was still Stella in name, but Luna in character. Tabata took the hit so people don't blame Nomura for failing to realize his vision prior to leaving the project.

I understand that if you're following this thing from the beginning, it totally looks like Tabata came in there to be the bad guy, but when you separate yourself from that and look back at the timeline, there can be no mistake on this. When the E3 trailer had come out, no one knew to think about that character as being anything but Stella. Even Nomura himself in interviews referred to her as Stella, but she was clearly already different. You can't pin that all on Tabata. It was under Nomura's watch. Tabata did the right thing and changed the name and a few details to separate her from the character Nomura put into all of your heads.



It was exactly that. And he's stated as such multiple times. And yes, it has ABSOLUTELY, spectacularly, backfired, lol.

Not sure how referencing words Tabata himself said is "reinforcing some belief".

Tabata himself also said the story and the game drastically changed under him, but I guess the word straight from the new director's mouth isn't sufficient for some reason. Clearly Tabata is just so interested in preserving Nomura's reputation that he'd throw himself and the game he's developing and trying to sell under the bus for Nomura's sake. Anyone who doesn't think gigantic changes and reworks happened under Tabata are kidding themselves.

Right and even though he was slow to admit these things he did actually do it. To discount his words as nothing seems silly for someone who's keen on defending every aspect of the game.

 

[YankeeDonB]

There really isn't much else going on right now. The going-in-circles thing only really bugs me when it's one topic that smothers everything else out when there actually IS stuff to discuss.

Like Cindy yay/naysaying for pages when people wanted to actually talk about the combat right after Episode Duscae released but eventually got smothered out and stopped bothering.

Yes that's of course fair.

It's just that I get tired of seeing Stellaluna/Cindy as the default conversational go-to every time things slow down. On the other hand, it's not like I need to keep reading these threads in between news/events =P

 

[DrBretto]

Tabata himself also said the story and the game drastically changed under him, but I guess the word straight from the new director's mouth isn't sufficient for some reason. Clearly Tabata is just so interested in preserving Nomura's reputation that he'd throw himself and the game he's developing and trying to sell under the bus for Nomura's sake. Anyone who doesn't think gigantic changes and reworks happened under Tabata are kidding themselves.

This is like 6 straw-mans all in one.

I GAVE the reason why those words are not the end-all-be-all you want it to be. Multiple times. And with you, specifically, not even only on this forum.

Some people, no offense, appear to be incapable of making arguments in context with the overall point. It makes discussion of complicated subject matter like this completely infuriating.

 

[LouisaFerre]

I think I'd like to inject a little bit of optimism for everyone involved.

One game falling short of your expectations is not that big a deal. I liked the concept for Versus XIII, and I liked what I was promised by Nomura, and I was excited, and confident that the resulting product would satisfy me. But here's the thing, the concept isn't the primary thing that drives my excitement. It's just an idea. The team behind the game is what I was confident in. I want to see what Nomura can do because he's probably my favorite creative in the industry. His departure was, in itself, the biggest single blow to my excitement for the game, because that kind of killed my hopes for a huge, auteur style AAA game from him, Nojima, and Jun Akiyama.

But now, we know that XV has a lot of baggage. The long wait, difficulties with Luminous engine, porting from Ebony? That's really not a good environment for a passion project, and it makes more sense for SE to tie this one up soon and move on with what they learned so they can do better next time. Turning Versus into XV instead of keeping it a smaller scale side project was already a mistake, but they're moving on, and thankfully it seems like everyone involved still has a lot of opportunity ahead of them to make up for it.

Nomura was given the project of remaking the best selling game ever made by the company, and the budget is still so high that it won't be profitable with the projected sales of one full priced release. On top of that, They've got a good, widely supported and documented engine, and the help of CyberConnect2. I'm pretty certain that it'll be more ambitious than anything he would have gotten the opportunity to do with XV if he was kept on the project.

Tabata is in a stressful position handling a salvage project, but if he manages to pull it off and deliver something decent, then the company will probably have more confidence in him going forward. From everything we've seen so far it seems safe to say that he's good at building and leading a team, and approaching things with an ambitious but pragmatic perspective(like YoshiP, maybe?). SE could use more people like that, and I think they know it.

Don't get stuck on specific concepts. The concept of Versus XIII is not as valuable as the talent that went into it, and those people aren't going anywhere.

 

[DrBretto]

Not sure how referencing words Tabata himself said is "reinforcing some belief".



Right and even though he was slow to admit these things he did actually do it. To discount his words as nothing seems silly for someone who's keen on defending every aspect of the game.

A person in your position should be better capable of seeing the bigger picture.

This is what happens when someone tries to be rational in an emotional debate. You can feel free to believe what you want. But, you're doing this to yourself.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

;___;

I can only hope that FFXV has a lot of Noctis and Luna interaction. Sucks that she's being sidelined so much.

 

[Death Penalty]

Right and even though he was slow to admit these things he did actually do it. To discount his words as nothing seems silly for someone who's keen on defending every aspect of the game.

Hit the nail on the head, and the fact that Tabata and SE marketing were so hesitant to admit to the changes that they waited months to cop to them should be a real smoking gun. They didn't want to admit to any changes and they loved their "Versus is intact" company line for ages until it was clear they couldn't use it any more. I don't know what could be more rational than taking the word of the dev team itself as insight into the development process behind this game. When unpopular decisions actually WERE Nomura they were quick to say it, too, such as the all male cast so that pretty handily discounts the idea that they wouldn't attribute Nomura's ideas to Nomura.

 

[Famassu]

Turning Versus into XV instead of keeping it a smaller scale side project was already a mistake

Versus was never a "smaller scale side project", though. It was to be Nomura's big chance at directing a mainline level FF (which was envisioned to be pretty big in scale from very early on), except without some of the burden that comes with being an actual mainline FF.

 

[Wireframe]

Someone needs to photoshop Xzibit behind the wheel.

 

[Byvar]

I understand that if you're following this thing from the beginning, it totally looks like Tabata came in there to be the bad guy, but when you separate yourself from that and look back at the timeline, there can be no mistake on this. When the E3 trailer had come out, no one knew to think about that character as being anything but Stella. Even Nomura himself in interviews referred to her as Stella, but she was clearly already different. You can't pin that all on Tabata. It was under Nomura's watch. Tabata did the right thing and changed the name and a few details to separate her from the character Nomura put into all of your heads.

So you're concluding that based on how Stella was presented in the E3 trailer. You're right, by the E3 trailer we were being shown a character that was already partly Luna.
However, you're mistaken in thinking that this happened under Nomura's watch. Tabata's takeover and restructuring of the dev team started long before the E3 trailer. By that point the only thing Nomura was still doing was directing the trailers.
So really, we can't know whether the change happened under Nomura's watch or Tabata's watch. What we can do, however, is rant about direction quality, the real reason why a lot of fans miss Versus, because I don't think the discussions would be quite as heated if FFXV's trailers were as promising as Versus XIII's.

Also, I haven't read all of your posts since I get tired of these discussions just as quickly as everyone does, but from the ones that I have read I'd like to point out that you made another error in your reasoning here:

This is a wild assumption, no matter how "obvious" it seems. For one, neither Tabata nor Nomura write the story. They're directors. For another, this is the part people are referring to when they tease people about the Versus stuff not being a fully realized story. They're not just making fun of people filling in the blanks with their own head canon, it's that by the time those clips came out in the first place, there WAS no story to fit them in.

Oh hey, what's that at 4:12 in this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDfMqus5ps
"Base Story: Nomura Tetsuya"
There was a story, the events just weren't tied together yet. That's how Nomura has always worked -- people say he just creates cool-looking scenes before working on the story, but come now, do you really think that is possible without having even the slightest idea of what he would be going for with the story? It was tied together by 2010 though: http://www.novacrystallis.com/2010/06/final-fantasy-versus-xiii-scenario-and-designs-complete/

Don't get stuck on specific concepts. The concept of Versus XIII is not as valuable as the talent that went into it, and those people aren't going anywhere.

Yes, I too feel that people shouldn't get stuck on concepts like Stella, but should rather focus on artistic talent. The fact is though, a lot of the talent that created Versus XIII either went to different projects (KH3/VIIr) and those that remained on the XV team may not have as big a role as prevously, since Tabata merged it with the Type-0 team and got rid of the hierarchy within the team. So this is practically a new team that may have some traces of the old KH/Versus team, but don't expect it to feel like older games from that team.

 

[wmlk]

is the vocal version still in

 

[Falk]

Someone needs to photoshop Xzibit behind the wheel.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Long as everyone gets it out of their systems by the Ot..

 

[OrionX]

;___;

I can only hope that FFXV has a lot of Noctis and Luna interaction. Sucks that she's being sidelined so much.

That's what I'm worried about. It seems like it would be hard to include her very much when so much of the game is a road trip that she won't be a part of.

 

[Wireframe]

That's perfect, xD

 

[Death Penalty]

That's what I'm worried about. It seems like it would be hard to include her very much when so much of the game is a road trip that she won't be a part of.

Ah, unfortunately prospects for this might not look too great. Tabata described Luna in an interview as someone that you really want to meet, but that you keep being unable to reach. At least she and Noctis are confirmed to be face to face when she gives her speech to the nations.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

That's what I'm worried about. It seems like it would be hard to include her very much when so much of the game is a road trip that she won't be a part of.

Looking at how they portrayed her in Kingslaive, the less interactions the better.

 

[dramatis]

There's only one side that's making anything up. And you know what side that is.

The E3 2013 trailer is the smoking gun. That is NOT the Stella that people are pining over already. How fleshed out it is at that point is irrelevant. That is Stella by name, but Luna the character. It's already changed at that point and that's indisputable.

There is nothing in the E3 2013 that is a smoking gun about "Stella by name, but Luna the character". Stella received redesigns before and given that she was called Stella in interviews after, that character was Stella. What is indisputable is your assertion that she had already become 'Luna' is doubtful.

I'm not hung up on Versus 13 as a game or concept. But in terms of presentation through trailers, cutscenes, backstory, the little presented of Stella the character is more interesting than Luna the character, even now. You don't call others liars just because you disagree with them.

 

[OrionX]

Looking at how they portrayed her in Kingslaive, the less interactions the better.

Lol, but see I want her to get the chance to redeem herself, and less screen time decreases the chance of that happening.

Ah, unfortunately prospects for this might not look too great. Tabata described Luna in an interview as someone that you really want to meet, but that you keep being unable to reach. At least she and Noctis are confirmed to be face to face when she gives her speech to the nations.

That's why I worry she'll be more of a prop in the story than an active participant.

 

[Mcdohl]

Not sure if this has been posted, but some interesting info from Shimomura herself:

There certainly are a number of ways with which we tie the music into the gameplay, as well as certain conditions that govern the changes in the music. For example, with the day-night cycle we’ve got music changes covering early morning, day, mid-day, evenings, and nights.
In battles too, there are specific trigger points that spark changes in the music. When you’re dealing the final blow to an enemy the music will finish in the right way and cut off when you need it to. There are little points like this there where the gameplay helps govern changes in the music.

From PS blog.

 

[DrBretto]

So you're concluding that based on how Stella was presented in the E3 trailer. You're right, by the E3 trailer we were being shown a character that was already partly Luna.
However, you're mistaken in thinking that this happened under Nomura's watch. Tabata's takeover and restructuring of the dev team started long before the E3 trailer. By that point the only thing Nomura was still doing was directing the trailers.
So really, we can't know whether the change happened under Nomura's watch or Tabata's watch. What we can do, however, is rant about direction quality, the real reason why a lot of fans miss Versus, because I don't think the discussions would be quite as heated if FFXV's trailers were as promising as Versus XIII's.

Also, I haven't read all of your posts since I get tired of these discussions just as quickly as everyone does, but from the ones that I have read I'd like to point out that you made another error in your reasoning here:

Oh hey, what's that at 4:12 in this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDfMqus5ps
"Base Story: Nomura Tetsuya"
There was a story, the events just weren't tied together yet. That's how Nomura has always worked -- people say he just creates cool-looking scenes before working on the story, but come now, do you really think that is possible without having even the slightest idea of what he would be going for with the story? It was tied together by 2010 though: http://www.novacrystallis.com/2010/06/final-fantasy-versus-xiii-scenario-and-designs-complete/


Yes, I too feel that people shouldn't get stuck on concepts like Stella, but should rather focus on artistic talent. The fact is though, a lot of the talent that created Versus XIII either went to different projects (KH3/VIIr) and those that remained on the XV team may not have as big a role as prevously, since Tabata merged it with the Type-0 team and got rid of the hierarchy within the team. So this is practically a new team that may have some traces of the old KH/Versus team, but don't expect it to feel like older games from that team.

First, THANK YOU for actually bringing up points! despite being on the opposite side of me here, this is very refreshing and I already like you!

But, no, I'm not basing it only on that trailer. There's far more to it than that, but I did my write up like a year ago and it's buried somewhere. That's just the easiest to point to reference point.

The Nomura criticisms have gotten as hyperbolic as the Tabata hate, though, so I'm not in any way attacking Nomura or his talents. That he has a basic story credit doesn't mean the story isn't written by someone else, though. It means exactly what I think we both agree on, that Nomura comes up with cool concepts for this and that first, and a story is written to incorporate that. I don't say it as a criticism. That's how I would write as well.

And the story being finished for VS was part of my original write-up as well. I'm not saying that they didn't come up with something to make it work, either. Just that we didn't see it, so we have no idea how much of that is what actually became XV to declare that everything bad came from Tabata and Nomura's version was going to be magical. The very idea that it required 3 titles just to squeeze her in tells me there are more problems with it than there should have been. If she really was this central figure in a coherant story, then it should be adaptable to a single story. It suggests to me that her story is at odds with the main story that ended up getting written, and that's why she got cut for the single story.

Now, all THAT is conjecture on my part. Just opinion. I have no problem with people being reasonable about their preferences in that regard, either. If you like Nomura's style better, that's cool. The problem I have is in the post I quoted that started all this mess today, and that's the scapegoating.

The bottom line is, even with your scenario that Tabata could have come in while Nomura was still at the lead and strongarmed him into changing it, it doesn't change two things: That by all accounts, Stella was removed because of the change to a single story, and that Nomura, at that point, had signed off on that being his vision. He was the man in charge as of the time that trailer had come out.

But, again, i really mean this, because it's very refreshing, thank you for actually coming in here with some substance.

 

[LouisaFerre]

This is like 6 straw-mans all in one.

I GAVE the reason why those words are not the end-all-be-all you want it to be. Multiple times. And with you, specifically, not even only on this forum.

Some people, no offense, appear to be incapable of making arguments in context with the overall point. It makes discussion of complicated subject matter like this completely infuriating.

I don't mean to be rude, but is that just the E3 2013 trailer? That's really not the "Smoking Gun" you say it is. So Noctis met Stella as a child. In the Versus trailers from 2011 they met and introduced themselves. Those aren't inherently contradictory. 10-15 years pass between those events, maybe he didn't recognize her, but she recognized him and introduced herself because of that. I'm not saying that's the case, just that such a detail isn't enough to definitively say that her previous characterization was already overwritten.

In fact, if you watch the E3 2013 Trailer, she says "Noctis, you can see the light too?". That dialogue is straight up from the Versus days, and afaik, that plot element about the light from Etro has not been mentioned since Tabata took over.

On top of that, Noctis says "My heart won't let go". If he's thinking about Stella/Luna in her current incarnation, then they're supposed to be getting married. Why would he be thinking that way about someone he'll soon be marrying?

Versus was never a "smaller scale side project", though. It was to be Nomura's big chance at directing a mainline level FF (which was envisioned to be pretty big in scale from very early on), except without some of the burden that comes with being an actual mainline FF.

Okay, not small scale. I know that early on it was already more ambitious than a side game, but what I mean is more that they shouldn't have tried to repurpose it as current gen AAA game. I think it would have made more sense to try and just carry it to completion as well as they could on Ebony/PS3, and if they had to omit some more flashy sequences from the game, then fine. The transition to Luminous is essentially what required them to straight up start over at a higher level of fidelity than before on an engine that wasn't even done.

Yes, I too feel that people shouldn't get stuck on concepts like Stella, but should rather focus on artistic talent. The fact is though, a lot of the talent that created Versus XIII either went to different projects (KH3/VIIr) and those that remained on the XV team may not have as big a role as prevously, since Tabata merged it with the Type-0 team and got rid of the hierarchy within the team. So this is practically a new team that may have some traces of the old KH/Versus team, but don't expect it to feel like older games from that team.

Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. Not to get caught up in the concept of Versus as a game because the people who were leading it are now(or will likely be) able to work on something just as, if not more ambitious than what Versus was supposed to be.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Not sure if this has been posted, but some interesting info from Shimomura herself:



From PS blog.

It's about xv itself of course it hasn't Xp. But that sounds pretty cool but I thought there wasn't any music playing when roaming the field so how would we know what's morning,mid day and night music

 

[Death Penalty]

That's why I worry she'll be more of a prop in the story than an active participant.

Well if you're looking for something positive that may indicate things move in the other direction, Luna does magically bitch slap a god in one of the more recent trailers. That's more than she does in Kingsglaive as a whole and may be indicative that her character is handled with more finesse in the core game.

Spoiler

Nozue is a hack.

 

[Rappy]

There really isn't much else going on right now. The going-in-circles thing only really bugs me when it's one topic that smothers everything else out when there actually IS stuff to discuss.

Like Cindy yay/naysaying for pages when people wanted to actually talk about the combat right after Episode Duscae released but eventually got smothered out and stopped bothering.

Can someone explain to me what they are even debating right now? Aren't both sides just saying Luna is not Stella and one side thinks that's a bad thing because Tabata and the other does not because Nomura? This goes into the whole criticizing some aspects of the game because it's not Versus XIII but whatever. You have one of these guys saying a goddamn simple fetch quest is the worst thing since Hitler (among other exaggerated criticisms).

Even in a topic specifically involving Cindy, people didn't even want to actually even discuss her.

 

[DrBretto]

I don't mean to be rude, but is that just the E3 2013 trailer? .

The part you bolded was in reference to DP and Kagari's dismissal of every point I made because Tabata's statements out of context.

I don't mean to be rude, but is that just the E3 2013 trailer? That's really not the "Smoking Gun" you say it is. So Noctis met Stella as a child. In the Versus trailers from 2011 they met and introduced themselves. Those aren't inherently contradictory. 10-15 years pass between those events, maybe he didn't recognize her, but she recognized him and introduced herself because of that. I'm not saying that's the case, just that such a detail isn't enough to definitively say that her previous characterization was already overwritten.

In fact, if you watch the E3 2013 Trailer, she says "Noctis, you can see the light too?". That dialogue is straight up from the Versus days, and afaik, that plot element about the light from Etro has not been mentioned since Tabata took over.

On top of that, Noctis says "My heart won't let go". If he's thinking about Stella/Luna in her current incarnation, then they're supposed to be getting married. Why would he be thinking that way about someone he'll soon be marrying?

Sorry, trying to be quick, so don't take the shortness of the paragraphs to heart:

They don't need to be inherently contradictory. They can just be relatively contradictory to see that it's not the same premise.

Seeing the light is in reference to Noctis' ability to see when someone's going to die and all that, right? If so, that's been referenced recently as still in the game.

"My heart won't let go" could mean so, so many things.

 

[dragonzdogma]

I've seen Ignis kick a wold on the snout before,
I've seen Prompto kick a globlin on his trump before, what makes your nakamas
use meele moves, the weapons they equip, or any weapon will do?

 

[wmlk]

luna:

ravus:

 

[.JayZii]

I've seen Ignis kick a wold on the snout before,
I've seen Prompto kick a globlin on his trump before, what makes your nakamas
use meele moves, the weapons they equip, or any weapon will do?

I'm not sure about the logistics of what moves they'll use when, either.

But, "your nakamas", holy shit.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Well if you're looking for something positive that may indicate things move in the other direction, Luna does magically bitch slap a god in one of the more recent trailers. That's more than she does in Kingsglaive as a whole and may be indicative that her character is handled with more finesse in the core game.

Spoiler

Nozue is a hack.

Then you hear her on the radio on the recent footage and realize, she's practically the same character than in Kingslaive.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

I've seen Ignis kick a wold on the snout before,
I've seen Prompto kick a globlin on his trump before, what makes your nakamas
use meele moves, the weapons they equip, or any weapon will do?

Lmao

 

[ED Cantu]

On top of that, Noctis says "My heart won't let go". If he's thinking about Stella/Luna in her current incarnation, then they're supposed to be getting married. Why would he be thinking that way about someone he'll soon be marrying?

This, also Stella tells Noctis in the same trailer "Please forget about me and go on with your life" so at least the plot about them getting married is apparently not there yet.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Ah, unfortunately prospects for this might not look too great. Tabata described Luna in an interview as someone that you really want to meet, but that you keep being unable to reach. At least she and Noctis are confirmed to be face to face when she gives her speech to the nations.

Thank you Tabata for sidelining one of the most interesting female characters FF has had in a long time.

 

[Rappy]

Then you hear her on the radio on the recent footage and realize, she's practically the same character than in Kingslaive.

First, this doesn't make any sense. Second, my god man, it doesn't make any sense to come to this conclusion! (whether or not you personally think she is a shit character in Kingsglaive)

Thank you Tabata for sidelining one of the most interesting female characters FF has had in a long time.

I don't know how people can have such high praise of a character that was never shown in depth.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Thank you Tabata for sidelining one of the most interesting female characters FF has had in a long time.

Edit:whoops you meant luna.
Agree if she indeed isn't in the game much

 

[Death Penalty]

Then you hear her on the radio on the recent footage and realize, she's practically the same character than in Kingslaive.

I don't think taking a forced radio statement as evidence of her being an awful character is necessarily giving her a fair shake, but Kingsglaive set a troubling enough precedent for her character that I wouldn't blame people not giving her the benefit of the doubt in future portrayals.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I don't think taking a forced radio statement as evidence of her being an awful character is necessarily giving her a fair shake, but Kingsglaive set a troubling enough precedent for her character that I wouldn't blame people not giving her the benefit of the doubt in future portrayals.

The lack of any agency is still there. Still show as a tool for others.

My calling, my role as oracle, etc....

 

[wmlk]

stella:

 

[Death Penalty]

The lack of any agency is still there.

My calling, my role as oracle, etc....

You can be a strong character and still be coerced into actions by forces beyond your control. Likewise, you can be devoted to a cause or a duty. Kingsglaive Luna was not a sterling portrayal of any sort of strength, outer or inner, but it's too early to call Luna based on her role as an Oracle and her being held at gunpoint. It would be as ludicrous as calling her absolutely strong for mouthing off to a god and then blasting said god. The sum of her character remains to be seen.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

You can be a strong character and still be coerced into actions by forces beyond your control. Likewise, you can be devoted to a cause or a duty. Kingsglaive Luna was not a sterling portrayal of any sort of strength, outer or inner, but it's too early to call Luna based on her role as an Oracle and her being held at gunpoint. It would be as ludicrous as calling her absolutely strong for mouthing off to a god and then blasting said god. The sum of her character remains to be seen.

But not when that's exactly all the character has to offer, when her devotion defines her entirely, and be at service of everyone and their interest. Which is what is happening with Luna.

In the same way, is not devotion, since she's doing it because she was born to be the oracle and is the destiny calling her to be a tool for it, rather than her own interest of being one.

 

[Dark_castle]

Yuna from FFX, a summoner who travels around to save Spira.

Luna from FFXV, a oracle who travels around to save Eos.

Square Enix needs to come up with new heroine concept. Even their names are nearly identical.

(Okay I know it's technically Lunafreya, but Luna works too.)

 

[Famassu]

Hit the nail on the head, and the fact that Tabata and SE marketing were so hesitant to admit to the changes that they waited months to cop to them should be a real smoking gun. They didn't want to admit to any changes and they loved their "Versus is intact" company line for ages until it was clear they couldn't use it any more. I don't know what could be more rational than taking the word of the dev team itself as insight into the development process behind this game. When unpopular decisions actually WERE Nomura they were quick to say it, too, such as the all male cast so that pretty handily discounts the idea that they wouldn't attribute Nomura's ideas to Nomura.

But they've kept repeating the "we've kept as much of Versus as possible" line to this day. You're interpreting their silence years ago over stuff they changed as them trying to hide the chances when it's likelier they were just silent because, well, FFXV & its finer details or even larger ones weren't something they were all that talkative about in 2014 and most of 2015 (and some of them weren't probably even fully locked down at that point...)

The way I see it is that a lot of Versus is still in FFXV's genes, from key concepts & storybeats to its visual style & gameplay ideas, but most of it has seen some changes as development has progressed (some already in latter Versus days, some post-XV/Tabata change). Some small, some bigger. They've had to make some changes to the story because they've condensed what was originally planned (or well, what had turned into a saga as development progressed) to be a story spanning 2-3 games into a single game, so that's probably where the biggest changes come from, but stuff like the initial attack on Insomnia, the theft of the crystal, Noctis going on a road trip with his pals to find a way to stop Niflheim's plans (whatever they are), a society of mechanisms vs. a society prosperous due to magic and stuff like those were things that were seemingly the major part of Versus' story as well.

A lot of the stuff they've removed/changed most drastically seems like stuff that would've made FFXV more convoluted had they tried to keep them in after the change to a single game. Stella's role seemed more ambiguous initially. She didn't seem like a foe, but neither was she a friend (at least at first). I dunno, from the whole (involuntary) confrontation on the streets of Insomnia, I got the impression Stella had her own shit she was going to do during the game (maybe she was intended to be a l'cie) and that would make her path cross Noctis' from time to time, eventually probably somehow connecting with the larger storyline & what Noctis is doing in a major way. FFXV probably just wouldn't have had time for something like that, as it seems laser-focused on Noctis' journey to becoming a king worthy of all that has happened to get him where he is.

Okay, not small scale. I know that early on it was already more ambitious than a side game, but what I mean is more that they shouldn't have tried to repurpose it as current gen AAA game. I think it would have made more sense to try and just carry it to completion as well as they could on Ebony/PS3, and if they had to omit some more flashy sequences from the game, then fine. The transition to Luminous is essentially what required them to straight up start over at a higher level of fidelity than before on an engine that wasn't even done.

I don't agree at all. PS3 was obviously not letting them do a lot of what they wanted to do with the game, so considering it was getting so late in the PS360 generation and despite taking even longer for the game to be developed, Nomura not seeing the project to the end and there being big changes in the story, I'm glad we are getting this FFXV and not a more restricted vision, even if that would have been (fully) Nomura's.

The biggest negative in all of this is Jun Akiyama's disappearance from the project. I was excited to see if he could reign in some of Nomura's crazy and improve and elevate Nomura's somewhat nonsensical (but often cool) style to a more grounded and better next level.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Regrdless of any squabbling between the Versus fandoms and the FF15 fandoms, i think the only thing we really all want is for this game to turn out decent and not bad in the end.

Bringing up Versus in any measure is bound to cause consternation(because the Nomura Versus/15 fandom and Tabata/FF15 fandom can be pretty split), but the only point i was making in igniting that whole kerfuffle was that there ARE changes under Tabata, and this is no longer Nomura's work in most respects, which Tabata himself has said and admitted.

Just like i said on the last page, Tabata should not be faulted for that, nor should he be negatively accused of changing things. At one time i was very disappointed about it, but i've come to realize that he doesn't have the obligation to keep things the same to begin with. Versus is dead and this is his project and has been for a while now. Nomura and many others who were on the Versus project are gone and onto greener pastures.

And so, people in favor of this project cannot simply claim that this is exactly how Versus and Nomura's vision was and there are no changes so fans of Versus original concept should stop complaining about Versus, and yet in the next breath say that we didn't know anything about Versus anyway, 15 by Tabata is better and different

Either admit that this is a different project entirely and just leave it be or have the viewpoint that things are the exact same as they have always been, but don't interchangeably use the two arguments, they are directly contradictory.

 

[Death Penalty]

But not when that's exactly all the character has to offer, when her devotion defines her entirely, and be at service of everyone and their interest. Which is what is happening with Luna.

I don't know if I can agree with you. We can't know the full depth of Luna's character from a few scenes, and I'd argue that being absolutely devoted to a cause that requires sacrifice could be well-portrayed as taking a great deal of discipline and strength of character. I don't think the Oracle archetype (even when devotion is taken to extremes) is mutually exclusive with being a character who can be called strong.

That said, Tabata's track record is not great and Kingsglaive seemed to actively avoid Luna doing anything useful in a practical sense in favor of pathetically empty gestures of strength, so we'll see what happens. In many cases he seems to regard women as window dressing first and characters second, even when his games manage to squeeze out some admirable traits in female characters.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Regrdless of any squabbling between the Versus fandoms and the FF15 fandoms, i think the only thing we really all want is for this game to turn out decent and not bad in the end.

Bringing up Versus in any measure is bound to cause consternation, but the only point i was making in igniting that whole kerfuffle was that there ARE changes under Tabata, and this is no longer Nomura's work in most respects, which Tabata himself has said and admitted.

Just like i said on the last page, Tabata should not be faulted for that, nor should he be negatively accused of changing things. At one time i was very disappointed about it, but i've come to realize that he doesn't have the obligation to keep things the same to begin with. Versus is dead and this is his project and has been for a while now. Nomura and many others who were on the Versus project are gone and onto greener pastures.

And so, people in favor of this project cannot simply claim that this is exactly how Versus and Nomura's vision was and there are no changes so fans of Versus original concept should stop complaining about Versus, and yet in the next breath say that we didn't know anything about Versus anyway, 15 by Tabata is better and different

Either admit that this is a different project entirely and just leave it be or have the viewpoint that things are the exact same as they have always been, but don't interchangeably use the two arguments, they are directly contradictory.

And on that same token the vice versa needs to stop as well than

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I don't know if I can agree with you. We can't know the full depth of Luna's character from a few scenes, and I'd argue that being absolutely devoted to a cause that requires sacrifice could be well-portrayed as taking a great deal of discipline and strength of character. I don't think the Oracle archetype (even when devotion is taken to extremes) is mutually exclusive with being a character who can be called strong.

That said, Tabata's track record is not great and Kingsglaive seemed to actively avoid Luna doing anything useful in a practical sense in favor of pathetically empty gestures of strength, so we'll see what happens. In many cases he seems to regard women as window dressing first and characters second, even when his games manage to squeeze out some admirable traits in female characters.

Like Yuna.

But Luna has the personality of a robot with the emotion chip busted. There's no discipline, neither strentgh, just a robot executing commands from destiny.

 

[.JayZii]

It's just pointless to complain about how the current game (which we haven't played), doesn't live up to a game we never knew much about and also never played.

Just be honest and say you prefer how the old trailers made it look. It's SE's fault for not making good trailers in the past few years.

 

[MultiJhonny]

The Luna vs Stella thing will never end.

 

[Ray Down]

The Luna vs Stella thing will never end.

Can't wait till it spreads to the OT!

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Can't wait till it spreads to the OT!

I really hope not at that point it's about xv right?