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Fire Emblem Heroes |OT|Natural Selection Simulator
- Thread starter Shun
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Advocatus Diaboli
Member
+HP/-ATK Ike.
It's still Ike.
I'm sort of over caring about IVs, since I simply don't care about arena tiers. If I get another Ike, I'll just merge them.
It's still Ike.
I'm sort of over caring about IVs, since I simply don't care about arena tiers. If I get another Ike, I'll just merge them.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
That and wings of Mercy to sweep in and just crush and unsuspecting red. Most popular reds are weak to magic as well.
As for an all dragon team Delthea solved the dragon team problem of needing a strong attack buff, range and a counter to Falchions. Until a unit comes along that has Hone dragons.
DeployThatPizza
Member
Finally pulled an Ike after about 150 orbs. +Atk -Def IVs, so it's not too bad. What's a good build for Ike? Fury 3, Quick Riposte, and Vantage 3? Reposition or Reciprocal Aid? I'm thinking Moonbow over Aether due to cooldown times.
Alkez
Member
Man I can't get any luck with IVs today. Down speed Ninian and now down attack Julia. Still, I got them both so can't complain.
This. So much this.
This. So much this.
I guess that's one upside to not getting Ninian - I don't need to farm SP on a dancer again.
I used Azura so much she's probably good for a while. And my Olivia is now a 4*+8 with immense amounts of SP due to all the merging and multiple times leveled to 40.
4*+10, +SPD -DEF Olivia with, say, a Wo Dao+ would essentially be Lyn. With Fury 3 she'd be easily equivalent to a 'real' 5* red sword and her Res is actually respectable. I've got a Ruby Sword on her now but I'm definitely thinking of other options open to me (I have a bad 5* Athena). I've yet to meet a Cancel Affinity Hector but that's what got me thinking about it. That Wo Dao is probably either going to her, or whoever I use as a flying red.
I used Azura so much she's probably good for a while. And my Olivia is now a 4*+8 with immense amounts of SP due to all the merging and multiple times leveled to 40.
4*+10, +SPD -DEF Olivia with, say, a Wo Dao+ would essentially be Lyn. With Fury 3 she'd be easily equivalent to a 'real' 5* red sword and her Res is actually respectable. I've got a Ruby Sword on her now but I'm definitely thinking of other options open to me (I have a bad 5* Athena). I've yet to meet a Cancel Affinity Hector but that's what got me thinking about it. That Wo Dao is probably either going to her, or whoever I use as a flying red.
Not at all, Falchion & Renewal is a pretty standard build to keep the wielder alive and kicking.
There's still debate on whether Ardent Sacrifice or Reciprocal Aid is the better assist. I just went with AS because I didn't have an RA characters to SI.
jasminlovesyoux
Banned
I love Falcion and Renewal. That's how I run my Marth with reciprocal aid. Really great combo.
BuckRobotron
Member
Keep getting Effie recently including on two free pulls but always garbage boon/bane. I have a weak 4+1 already. Used one of the others to quickly fill in the support/a slots on a recently gotten 5* Reinhardt (smite/db2). Could actually use any of those Hero banner units, especially Ninian but waiting on orbs. May just wait for something new anyway.
SenorArdilla
Member
The +Spd/-Atk Chrom from way back turned out to be +Spd/-Def.
Aveyn Knight
Member
Yes, you can battle him in later story maps.
dreamlongdead
Member
120 Orbs for a single 5* on Hero Fest is harsh odds, but -ATK is not bad for Ninian. You can't count on her to do damage even with +ATK, so increased survivabilty is desirable. -SPD is the nature that would have really hurt her.
I use +RES/-ATK Azura without issues. I was initially bummed, but the spread is actually fine for this unit. Unfortunately, I have it on Lucina.
If you got some notable fodder or 4*, then you still could have had a decent haul.
Yeah, I did, but I don't have a silhouette.
So if that last ? isn't him, I dunno.
Sushen
Member
I'm thinking fury for M!Marth and I wonder what you guys chose in your cases.
SenorArdilla
Member
I went with Darting Blow because Hinata would not show up.
Kagero has gotten new life in the Arena Assault for me, she can carry whole maps when you can see an all infantry team ahead of time.
I'm running a very standard Fury + Renewal + Hone/Spur Atk for my Lucina. Downgraded her special to Luna and called it a day. She also has Drag Back and Ardent Sacrifice as support skills, though I should throw Reciprocal Aid on her too. She has a few other skills in the back like Desperation and Vantage, as I experimented with different builds on her.
Lucina/M.Marth is a somewhat specialized unit who can't just walk up and wreck everyone regardless of color, so she doesn't spend as much time in combat as you might think. It lends itself well to playing a support role when it's not her time to fight.
tenderbrew
Member
Do people usually rely more on Gamepress or Gamepedia for stuff?
jasminlovesyoux
Banned
Honestly, I just open up a calculator and try to play with builds myself.
The problem with tier lists is that they're kind of subjective by nature. The Gamepedia one in particular doesn't seem all that applicable to the average player, because it's made under the assumption that you are a whale with unlimited resources. Its tiers are judged based on the assumption that you always have access to all optimal IV versions of a unit and have plenty of 5* units to spend on SI, which is definitely not the situation that most people are playing from.
I mean yes, if you do all those things then those units become super strong, but that's not applicable to most of the playerbase because the average player is F2P or don't spend that much money on the game. They likely don't have the optimal IV version of a unit, and either don't have the 5* sacrifices needed to make that unit top tier or aren't willing to make those sacrifices.
The problem with tier lists is that they're kind of subjective by nature. The Gamepedia one in particular doesn't seem all that applicable to the average player, because it's made under the assumption that you are a whale with unlimited resources. Its tiers are judged based on the assumption that you always have access to all optimal IV versions of a unit and have plenty of 5* units to spend on SI, which is definitely not the situation that most people are playing from.
I mean yes, if you do all those things then those units become super strong, but that's not applicable to most of the playerbase because the average player is F2P or don't spend that much money on the game. They likely don't have the optimal IV version of a unit, and either don't have the 5* sacrifices needed to make that unit top tier or aren't willing to make those sacrifices.
The tier lists also ignores all synergy or team conpositions, and is really most applicable for the future 1v1 mode IS will add inevitably.
Playing with the builds yourself is the smartest way.
i use gamepedia for looking up ivs, skills, units, etc. just because i think it looks nicer and is easier to use
i just realized that +1 units get bumped to the front when sorting by level.
i should have sent that spare lilina home
A tier list is based on potential, not how capable the "average" user is in achieving that potential. Fox is top tier in Melee because he can break the game in the hands of the top players, not because the "average" user can break the game with him. This applies across the board to pretty much any and all tier lists in existence, they are designed around maximum peak potential as that is what they are meant to represent. Whether this be a fighting game, a strategy game, or a game of Go (and yes, Go has a tier list). Most "average" players are themselves located in a nebulous moving average zone, so the idea that you should try to make a Tier List based on a moving average is the definition of statistical insanity and pointlessness. How does one even go about defining an average based on a nebulous player base that is in part composed of inept goldfish and talented dolphins and gold-infused whales?
Yes, in the ideal world the Tier List is the ideal "potential study"... and that's why it exists and how it is painted. Just as, in the ideal world, democracy works but in reality is often times settled for "what we got" but we don't throw out the idea of democracy because we can't achieve the ideal case. Aka, this logic is a fallacy that engages in a nonstarter basis for dismissal.
Tier Lists strike a negative cord in the association complexes of humans. This tends to trigger a very harsh cognitive dissonance based response. Its literally sour grapes: "I cannot make an Est in the ideal case. Est/Def Ploy must not be very good, who wants that any way, and these people are dumb." It then echoes because many people cannot achieve this end result and as such create a cognitively dissonant echo chamber.
Can't a tier list also just be wrong because it's tabulated by a few people, no matter how qualified? It's ironic that you suggest that reactions to the tier list comprise an echo chamber when the same accusation can be slung against the people who made the tier list. And that's not necessarily a slight against the tier list committee, but that goes for any insular committee that doesn't seek outside feedback for their own conclusions, of which there are many.
The biggest issue with the tier list is that it assumes characters in a 1v1 battling scenario without any buffs, any teammates, any synergies, and with debuff activated. Also only in an Arena setting.
These are a lot of qualifiers, which begs the question, what exactly is the tier list showing me and what real world application does it have? Further, who is it catered to? If we're assuming that a tier list should only consider the most optimal builds regardless of cost (which I totally agree with), it has little use to new players. And arguably it has little use to anyone since no one is in a 1v1 situation in Fire Emblem Heroes except for those cheesing the new Arena Assault for items.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Tier list are fine. They have to assume the best possible builds when ranking units because while the majority can't build the best units they may be able to do a few. I think tier list are only one half of the picture though. If you went and promoted Cherche to five stars because you saw she was high on the list for Axe users and didn't look to see why she was rated that way then you are likely ending up with a unit far worse than the tier list grade.
Similarly some may be throwing away or using for Si Fodder units graded low and they may be missing out on a unit that can come in handy in AA, GHB, or whatever else challenges arise.
Similarly some may be throwing away or using for Si Fodder units graded low and they may be missing out on a unit that can come in handy in AA, GHB, or whatever else challenges arise.
i mean they also have a tier list taking into account cavalry and flyer buffs. they also have one that doesn't take into account SI. i dunno how people miss that since i always click on "tier list" by mistake before realizing that i wanted "inheritance tier list"
Yes but this isn't an argument unless you providing reasoning to contest the conclusions drawn. Just shouting "nnooo def ploy isn't that good, lulz" is not how one would go about contesting a tier list.
As for the reverse echo chamber, yes of course that can be possible. I did not imply or state otherwise, but generally these things are mathematically determined around a set criteria not based on "gut feelings" which is where cognitive dissonance tends to rear its head.
This is an impossible criteria. The permutations would eventually approach infinity. But it is not unreasonable to suggest that a team of S+ tier units fighting a team of C- tier units is likely to win nearly 100% of the time. This is the general basis of a tier list even if the game is team-based. The list defines how strong a unit is relative to all other units,and tells you its general ballpark of impact on the efficacy of your team.
It is a guiding tool. It can be spurred or it can be utilized.
I know nobody likes when people brag about their luck, but man. I got 7 five-stars in my last 15 summons. I got 2/5, 3/5 and 2/5 again.
Anyway, my Ike is +attack -res and I gave him Quick Riposte, Heavy blade and Aether. He should help me a lot in those long battles where your unit keeps his hp from floor to floor since Aether will heal him so often...That sounds good to me, at least in theory.
I'm pairing him with a Delthea to keep his attack really high.
Anyway, my Ike is +attack -res and I gave him Quick Riposte, Heavy blade and Aether. He should help me a lot in those long battles where your unit keeps his hp from floor to floor since Aether will heal him so often...That sounds good to me, at least in theory.
I'm pairing him with a Delthea to keep his attack really high.
I wasn't making an argument here, but the illicited defensive reaction from you indicated that everyone who was criticizing the tier list was a memeing buffoon, which is only half the case. Regardless the discussion is warranted, I daresay invited by the act of publishing a tier list, and your accusations of a mob mentality are unfounded.
I disagree. Tier lists in team games, like MVC3, take team composition and synergy within a variety of teams into consideration. The entire list is subjective no matter what, because even the math derived from those matchups makes a number of assumptions based upon positioning, maps, and your opponents.
MVC3 generally will tier shells, pairs, or individuals based upon their role within a team. Individual value provides no worthwhile information.
Defensive reaction? I believe you have misappropriated what is called "example at absurdity" with defense. It is an often used fallacy for a more comical effect to convey a point by extremis or hyperbole. I am using an extreme example of what discussion is *not* like when trying to convey a point.
If you wish to have the discussion, provide mathematical basis. My jest and jeer was at reddit's rather ill response to the list with little to no actual argumentative backing.
You needn't find something to be offended by when it is not there. But you are free to search, I will continue to respond in kind for the ghosts in the closets.
There are also compositionally dependent tier lists, so I am unsure what your basis of argument is here. The very thing you claim to want/need/wish to see... already exists. In MTG single cards and synergistic multi-cards all have tier list placements.
Jace the Mind Sculptor was a top tier card, he did not need other cards to make him gamebreaking.
Shock has always been a top tier card, it has never needed caveats.
Force of Will is a gamebreaking counter spell, it does not need other cards to make it such.
These are cards that are top tier cards in that they are, alone, at the pinnacle of their respective color or job. This is how single-card tier lists are defined in any given cycle of play or format of play. Cards that, compared to other cards in color or function, are simply better than anything else.
Hector is one of the best axe user in the game, there are many other axe users. This does not make Hector still not one of the best at it. This is the basis of the Hero Tier List. Yes a team can and often does work without Hector or does not want to use Hector, this does not make Hector not one of the best axe users in the game.
My point is that something you claimed to be "impossible criteria" is, well, possible.
A raw, full-permutation team based analysis ala this:
Is indeed impossible. It is not possible to somehow build a tier list that incorporates literally everything as that is the basis of your comment to which I responded.
The growth in complexity is furthermore exponential with new units or skills added to the game.
Exactly. Because the very premise of the tier list is flawed since it is grounded to those qualifiers. These qualifiers aren't relevant to the actual meta of the game and therefore doesn't provide anyone useful information.
I did show that team composition can be considered in the overall versatility of a unit, it's simply chosen to not be so.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Also once Skill Inheritance was added all it takes now is to directly compare stat spreads, movement type, and whether they have a unique weapon that sets them apart (like Eirika's sword or DC weapons). Minutes after learning a unit's weapon and stat spread you can assign them a tentative ranking against other units. Baselines are well established so it will take new skills (def ploy) and weapons (fire sweep lance) to make radical changes to the tier list, and those are always going to be the most controversial because they benefit the few.
However, people should be giving that feedback to IS not the list creators. Perhaps in the future IS can try to encourage skill and weapon based meta changes via reward units or seals. I think it would have been more interesting to the meta if Def Ploy was obtainable via promoting a GHB unit to 5*. Everyone would have had access to it, which could make arena battles more interesting, and they would have to make the decision to burn 20,000 feathers and a potentially good GHB unit. Maybe they do have plans to do that and just wanted people to burn orbs first instead though, evil.
However, people should be giving that feedback to IS not the list creators. Perhaps in the future IS can try to encourage skill and weapon based meta changes via reward units or seals. I think it would have been more interesting to the meta if Def Ploy was obtainable via promoting a GHB unit to 5*. Everyone would have had access to it, which could make arena battles more interesting, and they would have to make the decision to burn 20,000 feathers and a potentially good GHB unit. Maybe they do have plans to do that and just wanted people to burn orbs first instead though, evil.
Aveyn Knight
Member
I don't have enough information to determine your missing character, but Clive is definitely in the catalog.
He's in-between Clair and Celica for me. Idealistic Knight, Clive.
Perhaps you fought him before the catalog came out? Or maybe he's there and you missed his silhouette?
Sushen
Member
That'll be sweet but I'll be happy to buy SP just like you buy XP with those crystals and shards.
CuthbertAllgoodz
Member
It's ok I will compensate your post with 250 Orbs for only a worst IV Seliph on Hero Fest. It feels like FFRK all over again, me equalizing the super lucky posts with my shit ass luck.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
It's still weird that we are days away from collecting Sacred Coins and are being encouraged to get a higher score to get more, and have no idea what they do.
it better be like...at least 100 per coin to make it worthwhile
Wyndstryker
Member
Tier lists, in a game where being in the top 10% don't vary much for being in the top 40%, doesn't seem like it matters much. But it's always fun to talk about
The only relevant tier lists in this game are waifu tiers. Everything else is just a bullet point
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Tier lists, in a game where being in the top 10% don't vary much for being in the top 40%, doesn't seem like it matters much. But it's always fun to talk about
One can certainly overvalue the tier lists for this game for sure. You are facing off against AI 100% of the time. I think even if you were totally F2P and had terrible luck summoning you could still get 3-4 orbs and a few thousand feathers each week in arena from using just Sharena, Anna, Olivia, and maybe Cecilia all at 5*, and minimal to SI.
Doesn't mean the tier lists don't have value, but be careful to put too much value in them.
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