Milly Osworth
Member
Do we have a list of all the Project Cafe insiders on GAF? I'm curious if they are still around. Who was the French dude again?
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Fortune: Nintendo started talking to 3rd parties at E3 about NX; reception positive
- Thread starter thefro
- Start date
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
That's an ignorant thing to do, though. Children and Families are currently in a love affair with mobile, and the Nintendo core continues to shrink with each generation. If Nintendo doesn't try to extend their software appeal beyond children and Japanese game fans, then their doomed to continue on that downwards trajectory.
They absolutely need to diversify their games line up and try to incorporate a wider variety of characters and themes. Sony can go from God of War to Ratchet & Clank to Gravity Rush to Killzone to The Last Guardian to Bloodborne. There's no reason why, with supposedly the most talented developers in the world, Nintendo couldn't do the same.
It's a pretty dumbass narrative. It's not that Nintendo is Japanese that is the problem. Having a western presence in the hardware's development will do little to nothing if the companies wider strategy doesn't see huge reforms.
I've figured as much. I want Nintendo to succeed, but we all know that it's impossible for them to fill every genre for their next console, if the Wii U's lack of 3rd Party Support is anything to go by.
You're thinking of Ideaman. He's sill around, as are a bunch of others. I PM'd a few recently...
Ehhh, "Japan sucks now" is a pretty solid mantra for many gamers on GAF, especially after Mark Cerny turned Sony's console design around, but it's been present since the past generation.
Never mind that Japanese developers sucked last gen because they were trying to imitate a style of game that isn't their own in the superficial attempt to earn more sales on consoles that were decidedly not even remotely focused on the Japanese market.
No, it's just that they can't design a game or hardware for shit anymore because it doesn't pander to them in exactly the right way or because one man with bad design ideas happened to be Japanese.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
I don't know that Takeda's designs are bad per se, more that he's stuck in an old design paradigm and doesn't want to or know how to leave it behind.
But then again I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Except USCfan. He just enters these threads to stir the hornets nest.
Wii U is not going to have a good Holiday 2015 and by late next year, will be all but dead.
MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
Idea man, which at the time was implying really good impressions about the WiiU and then you know what we got
160 shaders.
Dreamwriter
Member
Means nothing, they are hiring all the time for people to work on their websites and online stores and stuff.
MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
lol
To be fair he said 360++ and that's more or less what we got.
Anyway, the fact that they're using a new lead architect, and that they're designing the console in the US, gives me at least a little bit of hope. As long as they didn't tell the guy "do whatever you want with 20W", there's room for a nice console. Even 60W would probably be enough to make a 1TFLOP machine and get the support to every single engine on the market. Shouldn't be particularly expensive as well.
No, it's not Sony or Microsoft that have this hold over 3rd parties. It's the gamer, the consumer, that has this hold over 3rd parties. And 3rd parties will follow the userbase that is viable for them. And by viable, i mean actually buying 3rd party software.
At this point it's pretty much a "chicken/egg" thing. No 3rd parties means no userbase. No userbase means no 3rd parties. And even if you manage to get both on board, you still need an incentive for the userbase to actually buy the 3rd party (multiplatform) games on the console. Because obviously a technically inferior version of a game that can be bought on different hardware, isn't going to sell as long as Nintendo consoles are mainly bought as a second system. So maybe Nintendo has to focus on 3rd party exclusives? But even those aren't selling gangbusters. Even Nintendo published games like W101 barely moved units.
So, you're right, this has little to do with Sony and Microsoft, but that doesn't make the problem any easier to solve.
Pokemaniac
Member
Not that I actually think they'll do anything with this (aside from maybe BC related stuff), but this isn't entirely correct. The licensing for Power PC changed so that, if Nintendo wanted to, they could actually obtain a license to design and produce their own Power PC chips. Again, I wouldn't expect them to actually do anything with this beyond maybe modifying the Wii U CPU so they can include it as a BC chip more easily, but they do (technically) have options.
Bots are better than you
Banned
Well, looking at how many former X360 (only?) users went PS4 instead of XOne this gen, makes me think that you can *steal* userbase from the competitors systems. Not that it will happen again, but it is certainly possible.
About those 3rd party exclusives ... using W101 as an example is not really a good one, because although from a 3rd party dev, was a new IP with a rather niche gameplay and presentation ... while that makes the game great as it is, it did not appeal the ppl who bring in the sales.
Now let's make a hypothetical situation and say Nintendo paid for GTA 5 exclusivity, that would certainly have driven sales of the hardware. Although there might be many people who would have sold the console after playing GTA, there could have been enough games who keep the console and get additional games.
Again, this was/is hypothetical!
Oh and imagine the outcry on NeoGAF, the servers would be deader then dead.
Nintendo needs games that don't look like Saturday Morning Cartoons. They have plenty of those already. Mario, Kirby, DK, WW-style Zelda, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, Splatoon. Fire Emblem is probably the closest they have to something outside of that box right now that they're using and is growing. But that's still not enough since FE isn't really realistic-looking enough for most people.
They have Xenoblade, but no one knows how long that can last but it's still not enough for a lot of people as it's only one brand.
They have Xenoblade, but no one knows how long that can last but it's still not enough for a lot of people as it's only one brand.
You're right, it's not an easy problem to solve. But it is something that can be, in a variety of different ways, with varying degrees of success based on the market's current behaviour.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
The Nintendo 64 generation represented a much more diverse first-party catalog thanks to EAD's awesome arcade sims in Wave Race 64, 1080 Snowboarding, and Pilotwings 64. Then you add the NOA sports projects in Kobe Bryant NBA Courtside and MLB Ken Griffey. The finisher was Killer Instinct and Goldeneye / Perfect Dark from RARE.
In the Wii / Wii U era they've thrown away those types of games and basically release sporadic hardcore niche Japanese games (Bayonetta, Devil's Third, etc) that haven't done anything sales wise that the above use to do.
I really miss their N64 era philosophy.
I'm pretty sure its more about the fact that they are being less inclusive. Also more western involvement might mean better communication and hardware relations with western 3rd parties.
liquidekkah
Member
It would be nice if using and growing didn't mandate incest and face-touching.
- They bought their consoles not too long ago & it's mid-generation, they aren't gonna ditch them for a Nintendo console that even third parties likely won't touch. And on the off chance Nintendo does get third parties back, like I said, it's mid-generation. The market for those games have already made their choice.
- As for Pokémon, we both know how stubborn Game Freak can be. And if the console gets Pokémon by some miracle of God, Game Freak isn't gonna dedicate any R&D time to it.
I'd love for someone to ask Iwata/Miyamoto why they've funded/made deals for all these Japanese-focused console games yet more or less ignored Western development since the early Wii days.
They've clearly tried to target the Japanese core gamer over the Iwata years by funding and making deals for various games. Granted I've loved a lot of them but clearly some of that money would have been better spent replacing their N64 output. Certainly in the Wii/DS days they had enough money to do both.
That'd be nice too, but I think Awakening was a little dark at times.
balgajo
Member
If they launch next year they will have at least half of total market without a current gen hardware to appeal.
metalslimer
Member
I don't think it's racist to say that The lack of a western presence in the hardware teams limit their perspective when making a system. It's not that the Japanese are incapable or not smart enough to make the hardware, it's that people in the west are more accustomed to tepee style of system western developers want to make
Also Nintendo trying to appeal to the ps4 market would be disastrous next year. It would probably sell even worse than the wiiu.
Also Nintendo trying to appeal to the ps4 market would be disastrous next year. It would probably sell even worse than the wiiu.
Most of which will likely follow their friends into the bigger online communities like PSN & XBL.
ArchedThunder
Banned
I think Splatoon is a great example of what they need to be doing, they need to slowly expand their user base with different genres while not leaping out of the Nintendo comfort zone immediately. They now have a growing shooter base in their fanbase, now it would be smart to try another shooter that is a little more on the realistic side, but still distinctly Nintendo. So if Splatoon is a "Mario" with its artstyle and concept, now they should try a "Zelda OoT". It would be a long process that would likely not finish before the end of the next 5 years, especially since they would have to try with a few genres, but it's pretty much one of the only courses of action if they want multiplatform third party support again, the question is do they actually want that or do they not even care anymore?
Basically, designing their next console to be powerful and like the PS4 wouldn't be the best idea when they have a generation of genre growing that they need to do before they can try and compete with Playstation and Xbox directly.
It's really sad, in the N64 days Nintendo basically owned the console shooter market, and then when the Gamecube came around they dropped it like a rock, right when shooters were about to explode.
Fourth Storm
Member
This together with Takeda's comments about not being able to "just think about Japan" might be seen as positive indicators that they may be looking to shake things up a bit.
Yet, Iwata himself has recently reiterated that they do not intend to compete w/ MS and Sony in a race to the bottom. If they launch a comparably specced system, there's just no way they will be able to compete on price of hardware of depth of library.
Nintendo have no choice but to put together a small ~$199 box. It may be insane, but with the bold talk coming out of Kyoto about "not just throwing money out the toilet" I think they might jump into the digital storefront 100%, making them even less a competitor to MS and Sony in the eyes of consumers.
Looking at AMD's die sizes at 28nm, and figuring in a shrink down to 14nm/16nm, I can't see them fitting in more than 320 shaders or a .5 TFLOP class machine. That is if they want to keep die size and power draw around Wii U-level. Low power it is!
I may have said this before, but Nintendo would be the last ones to go digital-only. Not only are there people with data caps, but also gamers with limited access to the internet. Plus the Xbox One already got shit for trying to pull something similar.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
While it's technically possible for nintnedo to continue using a ppc design for their next console*, I don't think that would be really prudent in the long term. At this stage ppc poses the same disadvantages as x86 - the architecture is provided by a really tiny number of vendors (read: 1-2). Yes, everybody can license the ppc ISA, but that's a purely hypothetical advantage, as (a) not everybody can provide viable CPU designs, and (b) not everybody who can provide viable CPU design would be interested in making one for nintendo. This comes in stark contrast to the myriad of viable ARM vendors. Scratch that, the myriad of viable ARM SoC vendors (integration is paramount at this stage in consumer electronics).
So, to answer your question: can nintendo pull a ppc machine yet again - yes, they can. Would that be likely? Not really, if they plan to use NX as a long-term platform.
* Toolchain support for many PPC ISA versions, ppc750 included, is still alive and kicking, including in the most recent cutting-edge compilers like clang/llvm 3.7.
320 shaders is an odd choice, AMD already makes 384 ALUs the standard, 5CUs just feels unbalanced and completely an odd choice for NST. 614GFLOPs with 384ALUs clocked at 800mhz seems reasonable for that price, as for wattage, that should fit the Wii U's ~35watt envelope, remember AMD has said that their new architecture has a ~50% reduction in power draw.
What is nice about the 384ALUs is that multiplats that do come, would run 720p just fine vs XB1's 768ALU, Nintendo could easily get away with 1GHz as well to push that performance a little higher.
Yup, well said.
What Goldeneye was for the N64.
What Halo was for the Xbox.
What Uncharted was for the PS3.
Basically, a major system seller that will draw in a significant amount of new users.
So you're saying that every person who wants a PS4 or Xbox One has already bought them? Wow, that's amazing!
No, I'm not aware of how "stubborn" Game Freak is. Please feel free to enlighten me on the subject. With quotations about how they'll never release a console Pokemon game and for what reasons.
Yeah, that Xbox Live community has really done wonders for Xbox One and Microsoft's retention of its prior consumers, hasn't it?
So basically, the software equivalent of lightning in a bottle.
Oh goodie, more Howard Lincoln era romanticizing.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Quick question on the shader talk, how many does Wii U have? I can't find a solid source and it's bugging me.
What's the hoopla around this? The last three Nintenso console chipsets were designed by NTD, and they've always been based in Seattle.
160 ALUs and 176 gflops.
ShockingAlberto
Member
You might want to apply Occam's Razor here.
Japanese developers were the only ones willing to play ball.
Which is odd because his actions might have been a part of why 3rd parties don't want anything to do with Nintendo.
All of those scenario's would mean sinking loads of money into it. GTA exclusive... They might have better chances (and be better off) buying Capcom and Sega outright, lol.
A scenario i've voiced in the past: set up a few small first party studio's, technical teams, experienced with the hardware, and license some carefully selected 3rd party multiplat games, just like Straight Right ported Mass Effect 3 and Deus Ex. But instead have it done internally by experienced teams. They can handpick the franchises they want on the platform, Nintendo fans can be sure to buy a quality port.
Then why bother at all. Like i said in an earlier post, a couple of motives for going low power, small form factor, underpowered will likely not be as important. Consoles aren't doing well in Japan, so the form factor might not matter that much anymore. The gamepad is likely out, meaning that a large chunck out of the production budget is free'd up. The Wii audience isn't coming back, that blue ocean has turned into a red dessert.
But we'd have to wait for at least 18 months before the NX launches, meaning by then the X1 would be 3 years old. This would seem like a repeat of "WiiU getting 360 ports" and we all know how that went (and how long it lasted).
Cosmonaut X
Member
I'd guess you can throw in the lack of cultural differences too - much easier to deal with local companies from your own country, particularly when you're also a corporate-culture oddball like Nintendo.
Also, I'd argue that the hardware choice they made with the Wii put them in a stronger position to secure support from Japanese companies who were largely struggling to make the jump to HD development than it did with Western third parties who were geared up to lead the HD videogame market. The Wii situation was a perfect storm in many ways, not least in terms of how Nintendo finally had the userbase to demand attention from third parties, but lacked the hardware those third parties had now built their engines, toolchains and workforces around.
Fourth Storm
Member
The time might be right if they are unifying the handheld/console libraries. They now have methods to maintain a presence at retail w/ NFC cards and collectibles. I am sure they would love to eliminate the cost of printing discs/unsold product. I still see rows of brand new copies of Other M every time I walk into Walmart/Target. Nintendo could soften the blow to gamers by allowing licenses for 3DS/Wii U games to carry over and making it clear that your digital library will carry over to future consoles. Ditching the optical drive might even allow them to include something like a 120 GB SSD.
Yes, there are downfalls, but if Nintendo want to differentiate themselves from Sony/MS, it has the potential for payoff.
Yeah, maybe 384, just ballparking it. I can see it being essentially half an Xbone.
Wii U's hardware problems is found in the CPU, also Wii U launched 7 years after 360, not 3... Wii U in 2008? well that probably would have been a completely different story, 1GB of RAM for games alone would of been a huge uptick for developers IMO.
I'm just thinking of "off the shelf" considering I expect an AMD APU, this spec is something I thought up for project cafe in 2010? It was wrong then and possibly wrong now but it does make the most sense if they go with an AMD APU and target low power and low price point, they could go for more, but the only reason I think they would go for less is to match a weaker handheld spec more reasonably, but my thinking is the handheld is 2017+ while the console is next year.
Also as for the physical store front, I think they could use an evolution of 3DS game cards, it would be funny to see Nintendo go back to "cart" physical media again, but Nintendo has split their market between handhelds and consoles since Pokemon released IMO, before that point, gameboy was seen as a companion to the console but once pokemon and gameboy color came around, people started to take the device much more seriously. I think combining their library and using a PC style upscaling, they could get away with 16GB cards with possible 32GB cards down the line, you can even support "patch installs" for games that need more space.
It doesn't matter how long the 360 was out when WiiU launched, it mattered how long it stayed a relevant platform AFTER WiiU launched. If the X1 has a cycle of only 5 years (since it is again in a much less comfortable position compared to the 360) than the NX will again be in the same position, supposedly getting easy ports from a console that's running on its last legs.
And the CPU being "the" hardware problem... The biggest for sure, but that doesn't mean a pimped WiiU GPU will warrant getting the 3rd party games we want 5 to 7 years from now.
Cosmonaut X
Member
Given the way they've talked about being limited to providing only two form factors/devices because they lack a standard architecture/dev environment, I wonder if there's a possibility that - if they go for that - they will be more aggressive with providing local hardware variations than ever before.
Perhaps it would be possible to offer an all-digital build and a - possibly higher-priced? - variant that still used disc/cartridge media and target those at the appropriate markets, or both in the same market and offered simply as an option?
Fourth Storm
Member
It's not that Nintendo don't want to compete. They just don't want to compete in the AAA "mature" scene that MS/Sony have effectively claimed. There are a myriad of developers who would yet be interested in making games for a Nintendo box if it offered a feasible market and was easy to program for. Even publishers like Activision and EA make games for all audiences that don't require high specs.
I'm a pc gamer, I'm sure most people who want 3rd party games that are multiplatform won't be buying those games on Nintendo's console, their best option is to create a successful handheld again and have a shared development pipeline with the console to get 3rd party support from a strong handheld being targeted rather than putting out any high spec box which gamers who buy it won't be buying 3rd party multiplats on anyways.
I guarantee that Sony and Microsoft would put out more powerful boxes anyways, even if Nintendo put 10tflops in a box, Sony and Microsoft would put out something that dwarfed it, as they are coming out years later and they have created a market that is brand agnostic anyways and simply want the more powerful machine. (that is what happens when you create twins)
Yeah but to be fair, having Wii U's power consumption is not that smart because it's... useless? I think everyone on this planet would consider ~60W to be low power as well, and with that wattage you have space for a nice 1TFLOP machine (640 ALU at 800MHZ). Put that with 6-8 A72 cores, 4GB HBM, 128GB flash memory and a cartridge slot (flash memory isn't as cheap as a disc, but it's still supercheap these days; they will probably use 8-16GB cartridges on the portable so having a ~32GB modified version for the home could be worth the trade off) and you have a quiet, modern, super small, balanced and quite powerful box, that supports every single engine on the market.
That's a better machine for third parties if the NX turns out to be successful and companies decide to publish games on Nintendo platforms again (this could be good especially for japanese publishers); also, it's good enough for 1080p/60fps first party titles with all the bells and whistles. You won't see the level of fidelity of Uncharted 4, and the average third party game won't run as good as on PS4, but Nintendo games will still look amazing on it (heck, they look great even on the Wii U) and portings will be easy enough to do. That's basically the opposite of what happened on the Wii U.
I know this isn't likely to happen, or at least that it's not the most common opinion, but i'd be perfectly fine with it (remember that the vast majority of people, even those who would never buy the console, want it to wipe the floor with the PS4), and i think it would be the sweet spot for them and for us gamers at... 269$? Should be doable in 2017, at small profit or at least at cost.
How do you guys see the xbone/ps4 pricing come then? does seem to be far more aggressive price cutting this time around.
Yeah, I stated some of the shit he pulled earlier. Howard Lincoln was cancerous to Nintendo's position in the West with both 3rd-parties and the perception of the brand in the market. But "oh man, do you remember all those Western-developed games they had on the N64?" Yeah, the ones that stopped happening when he left because instead of building relationships with Nintendo, he was building relationships with Howard Lincoln.
This is blocked at work. Do you mind posting an excerpt?
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