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[ComputerMKII]

Greece eurozone bailout: Coalition hit by defections

The BBC's Mark Lowen says that social unrest is on the rise in Greece

Greece's coalition has been hit by the resignations of four senior politicians over the latest planned spending cuts.

The deputy foreign minister and three ministers from the far-right Laos party quit, amid protests and a 48-hour strike over the austerity proposals.

Greek leaders are trying to enact cuts demanded by the EU and IMF for a 130bn-euro ($170bn; £110bn) bailout.

The prime minister says he will do "whatever it takes" to get the deal approved in a parliamentary vote.

"We cannot allow Greece to go bankrupt," Lucas Papademos told his cabinet, according to comments translated by Reuters news agency.

"It goes without saying that whoever disagrees and does not vote for the new programme cannot remain in the government."

The Laos party complained that Greeks were being humiliated by Germany, and announced its 15 deputies would not back the austerity measures.

'Final choice'

Deputy Foreign Minister Mariliza Xenogiannakopoulou, who quit on Friday afternoon, is the most senior defection so far.

Her Pasok party, the largest in the coalition, also suffered the loss of a deputy labour minister on Thursday.

But analysts say the cuts package should still have enough support in parliament because Pasok and its other coalition ally New Democracy account for more than 230 deputies out of a total of 300.

Earlier, an estimated 17,000 union members and communists took to the streets of Athens, marching to mark the start of a two-day general strike.

Protesters also gathered near the parliament building.

Some demonstrators threw stones and petrol bombs at police, who responded by firing tear gas. A small number of people from both sides suffered minor injuries.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos said it was time for Greece to make a "final strategic choice".

"If we see the future of our country within eurozone, within Europe, we should do what we have to do for the programme to be approved," he said.

Last night the Greeks presented their plans for austerity cuts to a meeting of eurozone ministers in Brussels.

Their proposals include:

• 15,000 public-sector job cuts
• liberalisation of labour laws
• lowering the minimum wage by 20% from 751 euros a month to 600 euros
• negotiating a debt write-off with banks.

But the ministers demanded a further 325m euros in savings for this year. It is thought that the shortfall came because the Greek coalition could not agree to restructuring pensions.

The eurozone and IMF are also insisting that Greek leaders give "strong political assurances" on the implementation of the packages.

The ministers said the conditions must be fulfilled by next Wednesday, in time for another eurozone meeting to consider releasing the bailout funds.

The BBC's Mark Lowen in Athens says Greek politicians are frustrated that their planned cuts did not meet the demands of the eurozone and IMF.

But the government is likely to plough on, he says, because the prospect of bankruptcy and a potential exit from the eurozone strikes fear into the hearts of its leaders.

Greece cannot service its huge debt, and there are fears that a default could endanger Europe's financial stability and even lead to a break-up of the eurozone.

The country is already reeling from the effects of an earlier round of austerity that followed a previous bailout. Those cuts triggered widespread unrest and violent protests.

The country is deep in recession, with unemployment rising above 20%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16987644

 

[Rourkey]

Good luck outside the Eurozone Greece!

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Getting westerners to lower their standard of living is apparently really, really hard. I don't think there's any other way out for the Greek people.

 

[Funky Papa]

Getting westerners to lower their standard of living is apparently really, really hard. I don't think there's any other way out for the Greek people.

Greeks already had some of the lowest standards in the EU and now they are getting strangled. It is IMPOSSIBLE to restart an economy smothering it to death.

Greece needs massive reforms, including better taxation and accounting; austerity alone will only lead to disaster.

 

[Lord Ghirahim]

Getting westerners to lower their standard of living is apparently really, really hard. I don't think there's any other way out for the Greek people.

I don't think having a roof over their heads is something most people are willing to negotiate.

 

[Stinkles]

Greeks already had some of the lowest standards in the EU and now they are getting strangled. It is IMPOSSIBLE to restart an economy smothering it to death.

Greece needs massive reforms, including better taxation and accounting; austerity alone will only lead to disaster.

Yeah, people jump on Greeks for not paying taxes and not taking responsibility for their mess, which is true, but austerity alone is bad economics. It's not like the populace is going to take sudden pverty as a kickstarter for paying their taxes. It's not practical or even reasonable at this point.

Greece needs to reinvent itself as something new.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Good luck outside the Eurozone Greece!

They will be better off in the long run being able to devalue their currency. At 83p, there is no way that any sane investor will take a look at Greece instead of the UK. If they had a currency that was more like 25p it makes the choice more interesting.

Devaluation isn't the be all and end all of recovering from an economic downturn, but it sure does help. Take a look at the UK's net trade position in December, £1.1bn deficit. It's tiny, and that's basically all down to having a weak pound, it makes importing less attractive and exporting much easier.

Without being able to devalue their currency to sane levels there isn't much chance of any kind of Greek recovery near term or medium term. The straight jacket that the fiscal compact proposes will just make it even worse.

Being outside of the Eurozone will be better than where they are now. Once the initial shock wears off and the capital controls are eased Greece will be fine.

 

[gabbo]

So go bankrupt already. I don't see how, eurozone or no, that wouldn't be more beneficial to the people of Greece.

 

[GCX]

Being outside of the Eurozone will be better than where they are now. Once the initial shock wears off and the capital controls are eased Greece will be fine.

Whatever happens, it will be a long while before Greece is "fine".

 

[Erebus]

What's happening right now:

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16167791

 

[Sealda]

The Greek system is corrupt down to the core. Most of the austerity things are not even being implemented. You are telling all these corrupt bastards to kill the hand that feeds them. Its impossible.

 

[RJT]

Live feed

Honestly, I don't understand why we're not letting Greece get out of the Eurozone. Why try do delay the inevitable?

 

[ComputerMKII]

Live feed

Honestly, I don't understand why we're not letting Greece get out of the Eurozone. Why try do delay the inevitable?

That is the question.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

What's happening right now:

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16167791

Do you want to know what really happened? Hundreds of thousands of people tried to populate the Syntagma square to protest peacefully, and they were swarmed with tear gasses until the square was empty. After that happened, the usual small numbers of supposed "anarchist groups" appeared as usual to give the idea of mayhem.


I have many friends that are returning from the protest, saying that the populace was chased severely by the police with a rain of tear gas even down to small streets around the square.

 

[DarkKyo]

What's happening right now:

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16167791

What heroes they are to disseminate any lick of disagreement from the commoners. Police are truly the protectors of the rich and powerful in every country.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Their proposals include:
15,000 public-sector job cuts
liberalisation of labour laws
lowering the minimum wage by 20% from 751 euros a month to 600 euros
negotiating a debt write-off with banks.

That doesn't sound too bad, except the minimum wage change as I have no idea about living costs in Greece.

Why not throw in some additional taxes for the wealthy?

 

[Erebus]

Do you want to know what really happened? Hundreds of thousands of people tried to populate the Syntagma square to protest peacefully, and they were swarmed with tear gasses until the square was empty. After that happened, the usual small numbers of supposed "anarchist groups" appeared as usual to give the idea of mayhem.


I have many friends that are returning from the protest, saying that the populace was chased severely by the police with a rain of tear gas even down to small streets around the square.

I know. I have friends who were at Syntagma earlier today before the usual suspects "started" the clash with the police.



Several stores, theaters, banks etc are on fire at the moment.

 

[DarkKyo]

That doesn't sound too bad, except the minimum wage change as I have no idea about living costs in Greece.

Why not throw in some additional taxes for the wealthy?

It's bad. The sub-middle class in Greece is constantly struggling from what I understand, so these measures are a slap in the face to people already experiencing serious economic hardship.

 

[SRG01]

So go bankrupt already. I don't see how, eurozone or no, that wouldn't be more beneficial to the people of Greece.

They can't go bankrupt without every single public service, and possibly European banks, going down the drain.

Also, think back to Lehman brothers. That's not even on the same scale as to what will happen if Greece defaults.

 

[Combine]

Video of one of the burning buildings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nwcvvO-XGc&feature=youtu.be

An earlier skirmish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c69R-_WMmoQ

 

[Neo C.]

They can't go bankrupt without every single public service, and possibly European banks, going down the drain.

Not only European banks, banks around the world are standing in front of the guillotine. Let's see how the CDS work in full effect!

 

[Erebus]

Meanwhile, some members of the Parliament are enjoying the football match that's on TV...

 

[Kinyou]

What happened to the guys who got Greece into this mess in the first place? (lying about the deficit)

Were they lynched on the streets?

 

[CrunchyB]

Honestly, I don't understand why we're not letting Greece get out of the Eurozone. Why try do delay the inevitable?

Banks needed time to figure out how to best minimize the damage.

It's coming now though. The last few weeks politicians are saying Greece exiting the Eurozone won't be so bad (hah), two months ago that wasn't even an option.

It's probably for the best though, I just hope the aftershocks won't cripple everyone.

What happened to the guys who got Greece into this mess in the first place? (lying about the deficit)

Were they lynched on the streets?

Isn't the guy who did the Goldman-Sachs deal in charge now? Ugh.

 

[Combine]

Are there any GAF people in Athens right now? Would be interesting to hear them describe what they are seeing/hearing outside their windows.

 

[Jackpot]

Confused as to what their alternative solution is.

 

[Erebus]

Are there any GAF people in Athens right now? Would be interesting to hear them describe what they are seeing/hearing outside their windows.

See the picture a few posts above. That's what they're seeing. Plus, they're asphyxiating from the teargas.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

new protest pic.

 

[Sealda]

What happened to the guys who got Greece into this mess in the first place? (lying about the deficit)

Were they lynched on the streets?

Those guys are the citizens of Greece. The greek voters always demands newer more beneficial social rewards without even paying their tax. The parties that won the elections were always the ones promising the most financial rewards for the people.

The greeks of course voted for the party promising double salary twice a year. So the government had to get those money so they could keep getting the peoples support.

Next elections comes, now some party is promising X Euro to everyone who Y. So you have a bunch of populistic parties winning every election. Greece is the ultimate example of living beyond your means.

"You know it's sad but true"

 

[protonion]

I returned from Syntagma about an hour ago. I don't usually go to these protests because I find them pointless. When did the politicians changed their mind because of them?

But today they are about to vote for a law that will kill the country. I wanted to be there.
Thousands and thousands of people. It felt way bigger than last summer when there were 500.000 people.

And then the cops had to use their toys because their bosses knew that they wouldn't be able to leave for their homes after their vote...

Tear gas and it's inventor can fuck themselves. I couldn't breath. My friend almost passed out. We left. Every person there was so raged it was scary. Today I understood that we are at war. Sadly only extreme violence will end this. I for one can't wait.

 

[fastford58]

Another world situation that I wish would move on. Shit or get off the pot I say. It sounds like the politicians are constipated, so no shitting there.

I guess it is up to the people to shit on the politicians. Get it done, Greece.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Greece will be fine after they leave the euro. To my understanding some Greek political parties have been busy visiting Moscow these days .

 

[Combine]

Looks like voting is underway and the deal will pass. Though, it still feels like it's just delaying the inevitable of Greece leaving the EU anyway.

EDIT: Yep, enough Yay votes to secure passage.

 

[Mortrialus]

Those guys are the citizens of Greece. The greek voters always demands newer more beneficial social rewards without even paying their tax. The parties that won the elections were always the ones promising the most financial rewards for the people.

The greeks of course voted for the party promising double salary twice a year. So the government had to get those money so they could keep getting the peoples support.

Next elections comes, now some party is promising X Euro to everyone who Y. So you have a bunch of populistic parties winning every election. Greece is the ultimate example of living beyond your means.

"You know it's sad but true"

No. Greece is not an example of living beyond your means, but an example of how government corrupted to its core can bankrupt a country, a problem that became malignant because the financial crisis of 2008.

 

[Black-Box]

What heroes they are to disseminate any lick of disagreement from the commoners. Police are truly the protectors of the rich and powerful in every country.

I hate people who say that, if the Police wasn't there, what would happen? people would probably die.

 

[Gandie]

No. Greece is not an example of living beyond your means, but an example of how government corrupted to its core can bankrupt a country, a problem that became malignant because the financial crisis of 2008.

Thank you. Punishing the lower and middle class for the greed and corruption of others is wrong. Tax avoidance is on an all-time high in Greece, they have 60 billion Euros in unpaid taxes, which shows the greed of some but also the inability of a bloated government to punish these individuals.

 

[RamzaIsCool]

You know the situation in Greece has gone to shit when stuff like this happen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCzXdcSl2tU

Batshit insane imo!

 

[Erebus]

OK they just accepted the deal...

 

[Black-Box]

Do you want to know what really happened? Hundreds of thousands of people tried to populate the Syntagma square to protest peacefully, and they were swarmed with tear gasses until the square was empty. After that happened, the usual small numbers of supposed "anarchist groups" appeared as usual to give the idea of mayhem.


I have many friends that are returning from the protest, saying that the populace was chased severely by the police with a rain of tear gas even down to small streets around the square.

I feel like anarchist groups are making even more problems. its a shame

 

[Phoenix]

Live feed

Honestly, I don't understand why we're not letting Greece get out of the Eurozone. Why try do delay the inevitable?

It will start as a trickle but this is all the confidence break the Euro Zone needs to begin to unwind it altogether. The rest of the EU has spent a ton of money keeping them afloat, if they still fail - it will be horrific from a market confidence perspective.

 

[Sealda]

No. Greece is not an example of living beyond your means, but an example of how government corrupted to its core can bankrupt a country, a problem that became malignant because the financial crisis of 2008.

The Greeks asked for more cakes. The politicians gave the greeks more cakes to keep power. The Greeks asked for even more cakes, the politicians who did not give them any more cakes were thrown out through elections. Anyone asking for modesty were kicked out and received zero votes.

The greeks should have handled this just like the east europeans countries who did huge suffering to get the country back on their feet.

The greeks are not paying their damn taxes and they like to do everything under the table, still they demand the most outrageous social welfare on earth.


Congratulation Greece, you finally stopped paying out retirement to 64000 dead or fake freaking people. This way you will save 450 million a year. Things like these, are in abundance when it comes to Greece. The more stupid thing after the other. Everything is just the tip of the iceberg. I am no fan of the EU taking over Greece as some protectorate. I just think the Greeks have cheated the system for several years. Both the EU system, the bank system, their own tax system, their own laws and every freaking system.

Now, it hit the Greek pension funds which by the beginning of 2012 stopped paying 63,500 pensions, to people which were receiving $$ illegally, according to February 2 Pension Agency. In most cases the money was transferred to the accounts of non-existent or long-dead people. Ceasing to pay pensions to the "dead souls", Greece will be able to save up to 450 million euros a year, said the Ministry of Labour of the country in a report published in the Greek media.

The everyday greek knows the whole country cheated. I feel bad for the poor people and the homeless etc. Truth is, the whole society were cheating itself. From the top to the bottom. I am sure the top cheated more than the bottom, but the bottom cheated too. The whole country is corrupt, not just the elite in Athens.

All public power in Greece proceeds from the people. Realize it, Greeks seems to like blame everything on everyone else. This is what happens when you do that.

Its easier to believe Goldman Sachs did this Fact is, you greeks voted for the politicians who promised you the most cakes. To stay in power the politicians had to bake more and more cakes. More than what the supplies could result in, therefore they started to borrow ingredients from banks and other countries. Any politician who did not promise even more cakes, were instantly kicked out. And what did you Greeks do to your country? You broke the law, time and time. Just like your neighbor, you cheated with taxes and what not. You cheated because everyone else cheated and everyone else cheated because you cheated. Middle class people within the public sector, cheated too, everyone cheated, not just the rich elite. Everyone cheated, the problem was just that the poorer you were, the less you could cheat. Yes, if you had a pool, you would cheat too, now you blame it on the rich for cheating. Truth is, if you could, you cheated.

 

[protonion]

It will start as a trickle but this is all the confidence break the Euro Zone needs to begin to unwind it altogether. The rest of the EU has spent a ton of money keeping them afloat, if they still fail - it will be horrific from a market confidence perspective.

They do not want to keep Greece afloat. The money they loan us go straight to bankrupt banks.Not Greece. Then they force/bribe/whatever the politicians to vote for ridiculus laws that are supposed to eliminate the deficit so that we pay for the new loan. But they failed. The first "mnimonio" was supposed to get the deficit to just 2 billions for 2011. In the end it was only a bit over 20...

BTW it seems that Anonymous are taking down several sites. Police's, prime minister's etc.

 

[Mortrialus]

The Greeks asked for more cakes. The politicians gave the greeks more cakes to keep power.

More like the Greeks asked for more cakes, the politicians gave the Greeks more cakes while simultaneously ensuring that select privileged people the politicians were in bed with were able to dodge over a hundred dollars worth in taxes over a decade while setting up a system that makes legitimate businesses impossible at the behest of previously mentioned privileged people.

 

[jchap]

Reading this name:

Mariliza Xenogiannakopoulou

Put me into a state of deep hypnosis for a moment.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

what a load of horseshit Sealda, you're an ass to just wipe that shit stain on the entire greek people like that and feel so god damned righteous about it. Do you feel like a better person to talk down to the greek people like they are inherently money mongering cheats?

it is a structural issue in a fucked up system that otherwise rewards the type of behaviour the greek plutocrats did with pleasure.

You make it seem like those 'lying/cheating' Greeks were living in some utopia when the reality the Greek people have been fucked by structural issues and once again are taking it up the ass for the whims of plutocrats. Great, great stuff

The everyday greek knows the whole country cheated.

How can you even begin to substantiate such horseshit?

 

[Black-Box]

More like the Greeks asked for more cakes, the politicians gave the Greeks more cakes while simultaneously ensuring that select privileged people the politicians were in bed with were able to dodge over a hundred dollars worth in taxes over a decade while setting up a system that makes legitimate businesses impossible at the behest of previously mentioned privileged people.

sounds like every other country

 

[LJ11]

It will start as a trickle but this is all the confidence break the Euro Zone needs to begin to unwind it altogether. The rest of the EU has spent a ton of money keeping them afloat, if they still fail - it will be horrific from a market confidence perspective.

There's no if, it's when. IMF projects debt to GDP at 130% in about a decade, even after austerity. Can't deflate out of this, more pain than good. Default, best and only reasonable option for the country.

 

[Pachterballs]

what a bunch of losers. so Greece shouldn't control their budgets etc despite being in so much trouble?