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[Zeliard]

it's on the same level of controvercy as black people in RE5. Idiots in press pick it up and....

That whole RE5 controversy was perfectly legitimate. We had to witness an avalanche of simpletons on GAF and elsewhere - essentially the video game equivalent of a gallery of irrational white knights - attacking N'Gai for making a point that was not only legitimate, but important.

The reaction N'Gai got for that article is still, to this day, one of gaming's most embarrassing moments.

 

[charlequin]

Isn't the thread title a little much? Yeah the reasoning is silly but I don't know if we can just go about calling the guy sexist.

Contrary to popular belief, "sexist" or "racist" is not the moral equivalent of "Nazi." Sexist ideas and behaviors are everywhere: sometimes intentional, sometimes subconscious, sometimes grounded in what seemed like good ideas but now implemented in a bad way. If someone does a sexist thing, it makes much more sense to call it what it is than to try to arbitrarily avoid using the word that exists to specifically to describe that thing.

 

[Alucrid]

Someone brought up gender differences in physical education classes and really that should've immediately brought everyone back to that part of their personal history.

Look at the guidelines for physical fitness for kids in the united states. Girls have lesser requirements for pretty much every physical activity at every age level. So there is truth to it.

Is it truth or is just that idea that men are stronger than women that's pervaded into our conception of genders over the course of the years?

 

[way more]

Actually, females are better rock climbers than men because they rely more on leg and hip strength. Sexist and wrong!

 

[LOVE & TRUTH]

I don't really see what the problem with Ueda's statement is, but claiming Japan's gender relations are "normal" is just :lol

At least Japanese don't know what "sexist" means.

 

[Alucrid]

Actually, females are better rock climbers than men because they rely more on leg and hip strength. Sexist and wrong!

We're not climbing rocks we're climbing ledges here.

At least Japanese don't know what "sexist" means.

Que?

 

[TheChaos]

ITT: americans at their best... They deny women the right to be women and want to enforce the same mentality on the whole world. Well, at least the Japanese are still normal people.

I would say something truthful to you but I wouldn't want to get banned. Nice job thinking everyone in this thread is American, BTW.

 

[beast786]

But the connection to childhood fairy tales in Ueda's games is extremely superficial (especially considering their rather dark endings), and in no way denies there being a girl as a hero (girls have served as heroes in fairy tales in the past, and certainly can be heroic figures in modern stories which still perfectly encapsulate the feeling of fairy tales).

I agree with bold 100%, and no question about it.

His games are obviously for adults. But the images are based on our childhood. yes, he can easily replace boy with a girl. But, it would be like reading Snow white, Cinderella, Rapunzel etc etc and switch the boy with a girl. Yes you can do it. But if you want to connect with our cultural , even though it has been bias as a child, you need to connect with same style.

The comparison about having women in COD or Gears or any other games are totally different then what Udea was trying to do in ICO and SOTC.

 

[BobsRevenge]

Contrary to popular belief, "sexist" or "racist" is not the moral equivalent of "Nazi." Sexist ideas and behaviors are everywhere: sometimes intentional, sometimes subconscious, sometimes grounded in what seemed like good ideas but now implemented in a bad way. If someone does a sexist thing, it makes much more sense to call it what it is than to try to arbitrarily avoid using the word that exists to specifically to describe that thing.

You have to be careful of the implied negative meaning, though. It is more important for people to understand what you are saying well than to use words in a way that fit their strict dictionary definition when that could be confusing to the issue.

 

[Yoboman]

Is it truth or is just that idea that men are stronger than women that's pervaded into our conception of genders over the course of the years?

Men are stronger, it's nothing to do with societal conditioning

 

[Chaser]

When I read this quote in the TGS thread I had assumed it was said in a joking manner, or, even more likely, that it was poorly translated.

That there are people in this thread accusing Ueda of being "a sexist pig" is ridiculous, and assumes a lot. Considering the pivotal role Yorda plays at points in Ico, it makes even less sense. You would have a stronger point with SotC, but I'd argue that game is meant to play off the traditional "hero saves princess" archetype - in which case gender representations would be entirely beside the point.

EDIT: I see some have brought up the Yorda point. The 'skirt' comment is silly either way though, and I'm not seeing the "pre-modern" argument.

 

[Atomski]

At least Japanese don't know what "sexist" means.

Gotta be kidding right?

 

[Hellsing321]

Let's all boycott every Ueda game from now on! Ban TLG from ever being mentioned on GAF!

I'm ok with this.

 

[Lord Error]

But the connection to childhood fairy tales in Ueda's games is extremely superficial (especially considering their rather dark endings)

That is absolutely not the case - a lot of the potency of his games is drawn from their fairytale likeness. That much has been so obvious to everyone I've talked to about these games that I don't see how it's even worth debating. Also, many fairytales in their original form have a very dark twist to them, most of Grimm tales do for example. They have been heavily lightened up in various later reinterpretations.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I'm just going to leave this here.

 

[way more]

We're not climbing rocks we're climbing ledges here.

Does your bigotry no know bounds, sir?

 

[Trent Strong]

Is it truth or is just that idea that men are stronger than women that's pervaded into our conception of genders over the course of the years?

You can't be serious.

 

[GCX]

Girl in a skirt shouldn't be a problem when Miyamoto got away with a boy with no pants at all.

 

[BocoDragon]

"Traditional pre-modern societies," broadly speaking, are societies in which:

1. almost all women were expected to do dramatically more exhausting and demanding physical work than the vast majority of modern people of either gender
2. make up literally hundreds of entirely distinct societies with very different adaptations to local geography and weather, cultural structures, gender roles, approaches to work, styles of clothing, and basically all other things
3. clothing varied dramatically based on the time and location of the society (see point 2) but in many places including those that Ueda's work specifically draws upon for visual inspiration clothes for people tended towards the practical and were oftennon-gender-specific or gender-flexible (because see point 1)

The idea that there's a strict line of progress from "history (where women were mistreated and kept locked up in rooms)" to "today (where that isn't true anymore)" is a fiction. The idea that there was basically any "traditional pre-modern society" where all men wore pants and all women wore skirts is completely untrue..

That's a much better answer than last time :lol

While i do agree that societies varied wildly in their structure throughout history... that men and women were considered very different, and were expected to act/dress differently, is a constant throughout many wide-ranging societies throughout time and location, until the western equality movements of the 20th century (and, I would say, even AFTER the equality movement)

As wikipedia says:

In most cultures, gender differentiation of clothing is considered appropriate for men and women. The differences are in styles, colors and fabrics.

That is true even in maternalistic societies.

Also, if anything, people are taking more offense to the grip strength comment, because that has nothing to do with "modern ideals" and everything to do with Ueda having a bizarre and inaccurate idea about physical gender differences in human beings.

Hey, the "grip strength" comment and the one about composers ARE kinda suspect and I wouldn't defend them :lol

My main interest was that, in this world of Ico, it made sense to me that a female protagonist should have a skirt, and barring that, not be a character at all. The assertion "why not pants you idiot?" strikes me as an ultra-modern-centric view. If Ico is rooted in some sort of traditional world (despite being fantasy), then women wearing skirts makes perfect sense.

 

[sonicmj1]

Maybe he wanted the composer to address some feelings or emotions that are strongly connected to masculine psychology. Or masculine perception of classic fairy tales, or romance.

Again, taking a single phrase out of a - supposed - greater reasoning, can only lead to partial and wrong conclusions.

It could be the sort of thing that's an oversimplification of the actual reasoning. He said he wanted a different sound than he had for ICO. That's a perfectly good reason.

What's weird about it is that it sounds like he believes the composer can reach that better because he is male, rather than because he is that composer.

There is no reason that women can't occupy the male mindset effectively in any creative profession. It happens all the time, at least as much proportionally as it happens the other way around.

 

[subversus]

Except that that whole RE5 controversy was perfectly legitimate. We had to witness an avalanche of simpletons on GAF and elsewhere - essentially the video game equivalent of a gallery of irrational white knights - attacking N'Gai for making a point that was not only legitimate, but important.

The reaction N'Gai got for that article is still, to this day, one of gaming's most embarrassing moments.

oh c'mon

It's Africa. Black people LIVE there and since Africa (and the particular country in the game) is a pretty fucked place (well, at least 50% of the territory) not a lot of people come from abroad. A fact of life. If there are some social problems based on racism in some country the Earth won't change its orbit to reflect that. They should've done a separate american version if it's really that big problem.

 

[Knux-Future]

Girl in a skirt shouldn't be a problem when Miyamoto got away with a boy with no pants at all.

But now Link has Hammer pants!!!

Miyamoto is sexist!!!

 

[Nirolak]

Someone brought up gender differences in physical education classes and really that should've immediately brought everyone back to that part of their personal history.

Look at the guidelines for physical fitness for kids in the united states. Girls have lesser requirements for pretty much every physical activity at every age level. And that isn't sexist, its just tailored to the sexes so that either has as good a chance as succeeding as the other. So there is truth to it.

The requirements are lower, but not non-existent.

Even if you're only required to do three pull-ups instead of five, you still have the physical strength to lift yourself up by your arms.

 

[Calcaneus]

Contrary to popular belief, "sexist" or "racist" is not the moral equivalent of "Nazi." Sexist ideas and behaviors are everywhere: sometimes intentional, sometimes subconscious, sometimes grounded in what seemed like good ideas but now implemented in a bad way. If someone does a sexist thing, it makes much more sense to call it what it is than to try to arbitrarily avoid using the word that exists to specifically to describe that thing.

The problem is that they are varying degrees of sexism and racism, but most people associate the words with the more extreme examples. Its kind of a big label to put on someone based on something he said that we don't even have a direct translated quote of.

 

[BobsRevenge]

I'm just going to leave this here.

I just read the conclusion part of this and that article is clearly even more sexist than Ueda. Goddamn. :lol

"Before concluding that maleness is a genetic disorder..."

What kind of feminist bullshit is that? Why would you even put that phrase in the conclusion of a scientific paper?

 

[Yoboman]

I'm just going to leave this here.

I just browsed through that, and found absolutely nothing relevant to this thread. What am I missing? Why did you post it?

Or were you trying to aid the argument that men and women are biologically different?

 

[cuyahoga]

ITT: americans at their best... They deny women the right to be women and want to enforce the same mentality on the whole world. Well, at least the Japanese are still normal people.

What the hell is this? No one can honestly believe this, right?

 

[metareferential]

It could be the sort of thing that's an oversimplification of the actual reasoning. He said he wanted a different sound than he had for ICO. That's a perfectly good reason.

What's weird about it is that it sounds like he believes the composer can reach that better because he is male, rather than because he is that composer.

There is no reason that women can't occupy the male mindset effectively in any creative profession. It happens all the time, at least as much proportionally as it happens the other way around.

Well, he didn't say "I chose a male, because I'm sure he can do it better". He said "because he can do it differently".

I fail to see the injustice in this. Ueda greatly values male and female composer. To the same extent.

He simply believes the artist's gender can influence the art. Not in its quality though in its style.

What's wrong with this?

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I just read the conclusion part of this and that article is clearly even more sexist than Ueda. Goddamn. :lol

"Before concluding that maleness is a genetic disorder..."

What kind of feminist bullshit is that? Why would you even put those lines in the conclusion of a scientific paper?

The point of the article, if you actually cared to read it, is that society's view of the "invincible male" is the psychological insult to the physical injury that is the innate fragility of the male sex, across every species.

at conception:
120 : 100
male : female

by birth:
105 : 100
male : female

and it just gets worse from a physiological standpoint from there.

 

[Atomski]

Once again this isn't really about women and men. This is about a young boy or girl. At that age they really would not be much difference at all.

Also this thread makes me sad for humanity.

 

[sonicmj1]

oh c'mon

It's Africa. Black people LIVE there and since Africa (and the particular country in the game) is a pretty fucked place (well, at least 50% of the territory) not a lot of people come from abroad. A fact of life. If there are some social problems based on racism in some country the Earth won't change its orbit to reflect that. They should've done a separate american version if it's really that big problem.

The problem was never that there were black people in the game. The problem was how they were represented.

Very few people on the opposite end of this issue seemed to understand this.

 

[TheShampion]

I'm just going to leave this here.

Goddamnit, I would of loved this article when I was writing my senior thesis.

Which, BTW, was about how Japanese pop culture reveals how threatened Japanese men are towards women

 

[Torhthelm Tídwald]

Ok.

Here was my point stated again:

The world of Ico, while a fantasy, is modeled after traditional pre-modern societies. It's a world of monarchies (at least somewhere in the world, or in the past, since there are castles), tribes, top down hierarchies and traditional gender roles (even if it's a fantasy).

Therefore: designing men and women to dress differently in such a world is a no brainer, in my mind. Going back in history, male/female clothing differences were an obvious staple of 1000s of cultures. Hell, in the modern world, in the west, men and women still tend to dress differently (though we now say that we can dress however we want), and certainly in more traditional societies of our day, that is the case as well.

I think it's silly to scoff at the mandate for a woman in this world to wear a dress, even if it's a fictional world. Doing otherwise strikes me as out of place as if Yorda drank a Diet Coke.

He could easily have said something like that. "We were modeling this society on xyz premodern societies and we felt it added a lot to the atmosphere we were going for. Given the society we were using, we thought it would be more plausible if we had a boy rather than a girl." Had he said something like that, your point would be reasonable. He didn't, he said something absurd and indefensible.

And of course Ueda didn't have the opportunity to fully explain and motivate his choices since he couldn't say "well, the game goes like this spoiler and then spoiler so I thought a boy/girl fit best".

"There were several plot points-- I won't go in to them here because they are very important point that I don't want to give away-- there were several plot points where we felt that a boy would fit much better that a girl. You'll understand when you play the game." Note that he didn't say that, he said something stupid instead.

Look at the guidelines for physical fitness for kids in the united states. Girls have lesser requirements for pretty much every physical activity at every age level. And that isn't sexist, its just tailored to the sexes so that either has as good a chance as succeeding as the other. So there is truth to it.

I don't know about TLG, but in most video games the characters perform physical feats that would be implausible for an Olympic gymnast. I seriously doubt that TLG has the characters do things exactly in the range to be perfectly plausible for an 11 year old boy but implausible for an 11 year old girl, assuming that range even exists.

 

[subversus]

I just read the conclusion part of this and that article is clearly even more sexist than Ueda. Goddamn. :lol

"Before concluding that maleness is a genetic disorder..."

What kind of feminist bullshit is that? Why would you even put those lines in the conclusion of a scientific paper?

don't fuck with science, these people SPEAK TRUTH.

actually some of them do, and society's norms and rules have nothing to do with that.

 

[apana]

How dare you people come after Ueda San like this, the man is an artist. Also what he said may not be a hundred percent accurate but then again it seems like a casual statement. The PC police aren't gonna let anyone go, good luck living in this brave new world people. Probably a bigger problem for women leads in games is that the average male doesnt want to buy it, unfortunate but true.

 

[lyre]

I'm just going to leave this here.

Worthless without a review number in the heading.

Spoiler

and even then, everyone will just read the damn number

 

[bernardobri]

I can't see how swapping the genders on Ico's or SOTC's main characters could have made any kind of relevant difference on each game's main theme...

 

[subversus]

The problem was never that there were black people in the game. The problem was how they were represented.

Very few people on the opposite end of this issue seemed to understand this.

He had a black sidekick, what else do you need? And zombies are zombies, sorry for that. Nobody complains that George Romero discriminates white people by representing them as zombies.

 

[cuyahoga]

Maybe he wanted the composer to address some feelings or emotions that are strongly connected to masculine psychology. Or masculine perception of classic fairy tales, or romance.

Again, taking a single phrase out of a - supposed - greater reasoning, can only lead to partial and wrong conclusions.

Well, he didn't say "I chose a male, because I'm sure he can do it better". He said "because he can do it differently".

I fail to see the injustice in this. Ueda greatly values male and female composer. To the same extent.

He simply believes the artist's gender can influence the art. Not in its quality though in its style.

What's wrong with this?

This is the most strained apologia I've read on the internet since I read someone claim "Spanglish was underrated" a few months ago.

 

[BocoDragon]

He could easily have said something like that. "We were modeling this society on xyz premodern societies and we felt it added a lot to the atmosphere we were going for. Given the society we were using, we thought it would be more plausible if we had a boy rather than a girl." Had he said something like that, your point would be reasonable. He didn't, he said something absurd and indefensible.

Fair enough.

Bluntly stated like that, it's as if he's saying "girls wear skirts because that's just what they do" or "girls wear skirts... [from my Japanese perspective]".

Personally I just defend it because it seems like rational world-building based on what I know about the Ico/SotC/TLG setting.

 

[way more]

I'm just going to leave this here.

interesting. The female body is indeed more advanced. Females are more efficient and their bodies hand stress and fatigue better. Biologist actually view an all female submarine ship or interplanetary voyage as the most logical choice.

 

[Big B]

I can't see how swapping the genders on Ico's or SOTC's main characters could have made any kind of relevant difference on each game's main theme...

oh, I'm sorry. What is this in response to?

 

[BobsRevenge]

I don't know about TLG, but in most video games the characters perform physical feats that would be implausible for an Olympic gymnast. I seriously doubt that TLG has the characters do things exactly in the range to be perfectly plausible for an 11 year old boy but implausible for an 11 year old girl, assuming that range even exists.

Man, I brought that shit up way before you. Don't even. :lol

 

[toastyToast]

Pretty silly excuse since I'd fathom that less than 1% of the population has the physical capability to handle their body weight with any ease. Pants could have easily remedied the camera issue also.

There was no reason to justify the choice imo.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

He had a black sidekick, what else do you need? And zombies are zombies, sorry for that. Nobody complains that George Romero discriminates white people by representing them as zombies.

How dare you people come after Ueda San like this, the man is an artist. Also what he said may not be a hundred percent accurate but then again it seems like a casual statement. The PC police aren't gonna let anyone go, good luck living in this brave new world people. Probably a bigger problem for women leads in games is that the average male doesnt want to buy it, unfortunate but true.

Ha ha! You almost fooled me there guys, I thought you were being serious for a second!

 

[metareferential]

This is the most strained apologia I've read on the internet since I read someone claim "Spanglish was underrated" a few months ago.

I couldn't care less for Ueda. I guess in the gaming world it is like this. For or against, who cares if someone tries to understand facts or the reasons behind.

Yeah, I'm an apologist. Now pick another random post and go on, thank you.

Or you could explain to me what's so wrong in my reasoning.

Provided you have the capabilities to do it.

 

[cuyahoga]

How dare you people come after Ueda San like this, the man is an artist. Also what he said may not be a hundred percent accurate but then again it seems like a casual statement. The PC police aren't gonna let anyone go, good luck living in this brave new world people. Probably a bigger problem for women leads in games is that the average male doesnt want to buy it, unfortunate but true.

You're right, all these games would be vastly improved if Carey Mulligan was the model for the protagonist. Carey Mulligan is just so awesome.

 

[beast786]

The point of the article, if you actually cared to read it, is that society's view of the "invincible male" is the psychological insult to the physical injury that is the innate fragility of the male sex, across every species.

at conception:
120 : 100
male : female

by birth:
105 : 100
male : female

and it just gets worse from a physiological standpoint from there.

I am not sure if I should respond to this.

Wars
Work

Always put male more infront of risk.

But, in general. The female do dictate population and society. You can have 100 women and 1 male, and get 100 kids as population because it is linear with female population, and if you turn it around, it wont work. hence female needs to be protected and are more valuable than man. Even physiologically, women are protected by estrogen, and when they reach menopause they loose that protection and become vulnerable to heart disease just like men, and part of that reason (theory) is because if they are not able to have child they are as useless as male.

 

[Lord Error]

Well, he didn't say "I chose a male, because I'm sure he can do it better". He said "because he can do it differently".

I fail to see the injustice in this. Ueda greatly values male and female composer. To the same extent.

He simply believes the artist's gender can influence the art. Not in its quality though in its style.

What's wrong with this?

No different than using a phrase that something could use a bit of a woman's touch. To me, that doesn't sound like an offensive thing to say.

 

[charlequin]

I think what he meant by the composer comment was that he wanted the music to have a more masculine feel to it and he felt like Kou Itani could produce that feeling better than the Female composer could....it that true? Idk I'm not a composer but in theory it makes some sense.

Honestly, I would be pretty insulted if I was a composer and someone told me that I'd lost a gig because as a man they didn't believe I could make music that sounded feminine (or vice versa). :lol

that men and women were considered very different, and were expected to act/dress differently, is a constant throughout many wide-ranging societies throughout time and location, until the western equality movements of the 20th century

No, that's not really true. There's a huge amount of variety in terms of how strongly gender roles are differentiated in different historical societies, how immutable those barriers are for individuals, and how much overlap between those roles exists between different historical cultures. Absolute gender dualism is by no means a universal of history.

The assertion "why not pants you idiot?" strikes me as an ultra-modern-centric view.

The idea that women wear skirts and men wear pants is an "ultra-modern" view. A quick perusal of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pants and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirts will reveal that both clothing items have been worn extensively by both men and women throughout history, with no strong consistency as to which item is assigned to which gender.