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[hey_it's_that_dog]

It's a proven fact that girls don't like eating lizards as much, so naturally they have lower stamina than boys.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I am not sure if I should respond to this.

Wars
Work

Always put male more infront of risk.

But, in general. The female do dictate population and society. You can have 100 women and 1 male, and get 100 kids as population because it is linear with female population, and if you turn it around, it wont work. hence female needs to be protected and are more valuable than man. Even physiologically, women are protected by estrogen, and when they reach menopause they loose that protection and become vulnerable to heart disease just like men, and part of that reason (theory) is because if they are not able to have child they are as useless as male.

You didn't even read the article.

 

[BocoDragon]

I can't see how swapping the genders on Ico's or SOTC's main characters could have made any kind of relevant difference on each game's main theme...

SotC... perhaps not.

But Ico?

I dunno... there is a small boy protecting a weak, rather useless, older girl. The strange emotions of "protection" that elicited probably were based on its elicitation of our knowlege of gender roles (whether engrained in us societal, biological, whatever).

I think changing the genders on Ico would have changed the meaning greatly.

 

[Conceited]

I'm just going to leave this here.

I'm all for equality but this is....wow.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

It's a proven fact that girls don't like eating lizards as much, so naturally they have lower stamina than boys.

Also they would have to animate riding Agro as sidesaddle and maybe make him a pony.

 

[sonicmj1]

He had a black sidekick, what else do you need? And zombies are zombies, sorry for that. Nobody complains that George Romero discriminates white people by representing them as zombies.

1. They're not zombies. In fact, it probably would have been less of a problem if they were early RE-style slow, shuffling zombies.

2. A lot of the problems were pretty specific to that early trailer.

3. It's more complicated than that, and I don't want to take this thread way off subject and discuss colonial representation of colonized races instead of contemporary societal perceptions of gender.

 

[Nirolak]

The idea that women wear skirts and men wear pants is an "ultra-modern" view. A quick perusal of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pants and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirts will reveal that both clothing items have been worn extensively by both men and women throughout history, with no strong consistency as to which item is assigned to which gender.

There was even a time where only men wore high heels.

 

[Zeliard]

oh c'mon

It's Africa. Black people LIVE there and since Africa (and the particular country in the game) is a pretty fucked place (well, at least 50% of the territory) not a lot of people come from abroad. A fact of life. If there are some social problems based on racism in some country the Earth won't change its orbit to reflect that. They should've done a separate american version if it's really that big problem.

The entire point N'Gai and others were making is that it's all based on perception having to do with thousands of years of historical imagery. The original RE5 trailer, which caused the controversy, featured ample amounts of imagery that could be construed as racist. That also says nothing about the intent on the parts of the devs - at no point were they, or even the game itself, ever called racist. People simply noted that the imagery in the trailer was troublesome.

Whether or not you feel it was should have no bearing on being able to look at it from other points of views, and that's what so many people struggle with (that, and the people who viewed it as some attack on video games and reflexively defended the imaginary vilification). You can't tell someone how they feel, or that what they're feeling is somehow inaccurate - they feel a certain way, and that's that. It's as subjective as it gets. What you can do, if you don't feel that way, is to try and understand why they do. The people who criticized N'Gai and others didn't seem particularly willing to do that.

I would say this is off-topic, but as the main point is that people aren't willing to understand where others are coming from on some things, I'd say it's entirely applicable to this thread.

 

[BobsRevenge]

interesting. The female body is indeed more advanced. Females are more efficient and their bodies hand stress and fatigue better. Biologist actually view an all female submarine ship or interplanetary voyage as the most logical choice.

It isn't more advanced. That is a misuse of the term. The chromosome combination is more stable, and the article has some validity in that boys mature slower than girls and that there is a tendency for boys to under report injuries or whatever due to societal norms. But really, its obvious where the author is coming from and the dude is clearly trying to appeal to feminist sensibilities in a way that is derogatory to males.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

It isn't more advanced. That is a misuse of the term. The chromosome combination is more stable, and the article has some validity in that boys mature slower than girls and that there is a tendency for boys to under report injuries or whatever due to societal norms. But really, its obvious where the author is coming from and the dude is clearly trying to appeal to feminist sensibilities in a way that is derogatory to males.

The author is a doctor writing in the British Medical Journal in effort to inform physicians of the problems with male physiology and prevent possible deaths/injury by the way society views men.

 

[Lord Error]

He could easily have said something like that. "We were modeling this society on xyz premodern societies and we felt it added a lot to the atmosphere we were going for. Given the society we were using, we thought it would be more plausible if we had a boy rather than a girl."

He probably thought people he was talking to won't be oblivious to something so ridiculously obvious like that he modelled the world to our childhood fairytale concepts?

 

[Torhthelm Tídwald]

Man, I brought that shit up way before you. Don't even. :lol

Sorry, must have missed your other post, so I though you were defending the "grip" remark.

 

[Meier]

Valid reasons. Sorry, you're full of shit if you say there isn't much difference at that age. There is ALWAYS a difference.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Also they would have to animate riding Agro as sidesaddle and maybe make him a pony.

No

A unicorn

 

[udivision]

Maybe the animal is a girl.

 

[Yoboman]

The author is a doctor writing in the British Medical Journal in effort to inform physicians of the problems with male physiology and prevent possible deaths/injury by the way society views men.

Which has what to do with the climbing aptitude and skirt-wearing of girls in a videogame?

Or did you just decide to derail the thread further?

 

[anaron]

No

A unicorn

We could've had a fucking unicorn.

FEMALE WANDER SUPERIOR GAME OF THE FOREVER

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Aggro being a unicorn would actually make Shadow of the Colossus like 90 times better, no lie

Erasure's Harmony could be the "this colossus is fucking chasing me" music

 

[Noshino]

um, what? The style in these games seems like some weird mix of Mongolian/Peruvian, and certainly females in those societies wore slacks and other heavy clothing, particularly during colder seasons.

Even out of colder seasons, though, it is not at all uncommon for females to wear things other than skirts.

I mean jesus fucking christ

This is more offensive to me than Ueda's comments, specially since I can understand where he is coming from, but your comment, well, I just don't find the characters, at least the female ones to fit with "mix of mongolian/peruvian" at all :lol

Oh, and for the record, peruvian people, or women in this case, that reside in the andes area, they wear skirts, if it gets colder? some will wear something like a wool stockings I believe, but most just wear more skirts, that's all.

The boy from trico? I think he's wearing a wrapper of sorts

But you're right. The boy from Ico is wearing pants.

I guess Ueda is trying to present a very traditional, cultural universe in Ico. There has to be different traditional dresses for women and men. So I guess Yorda or any girl wearing pants in Ico universe would seem out of place. Its probably for this reason that Ueda wanted skirt for female protagonist, as it would seem to be a fit for the little universe he created.

The thing is, Ueda and his team seem to represent women as this priceless being, that is worth risking it all for. The girls in Ico and SotC are shown as delicate beings, one for which the characters wants to fight for (and makes us help him on their quests), hence the soft tone skins as well as white dress, and also why the male characters tend to have this more rough/tough characteristics.

Call me sexist if you want, but I really don't think it would have worked if we switched the genders of the characters.

 

[beast786]

You didn't even read the article.

My response wasnt to the article. It was the bold part in your post.

I am a surgeon by profession. I already understand the human body.

 

[anaron]

Aggro being a unicorn would actually make Shadow of the Colossus like 90 times better, no lie

Erasure's Harmony could be the "this colossus is fucking chasing me" music

 

[BobsRevenge]

The author is a doctor writing in the British Medical Journal in effort to inform physicians of the problems with male physiology and prevent possible deaths/injury by the way society views men.

I know its from a medical journal. That shit says JSTOR all over it and it is medically related so that's obvious. If you look at his phrasing it is intentionally coming from an angle and the piece is trying to bring attention to an issue. Like I said, I'm not saying there isn't validity.

I'm just saying when you bring up phrasing that implies that your article is pointing to the interpretation that maleness is a genetic disorder, you're not being as objective as maybe you should be.

 

[apana]

I'm just gonna say it would be sort of interesting if Ueda could make the next metroid game ( which by the way I know is not possible). He would really be able to add a new perspective to the Samus character and maybe shit on some people's rigid conventions.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

My response wasnt to the article. It was the bold part in your post.

I am a surgeon by profession. I already understand the human body.

I am going to be really nice and not say anything other than you're stretching the truth incredibly here.

And apparently, you really need to read the article and begin understanding why it was written for you.

 

[Finaika]

I'm just gonna say it would be sort of interesting if Ueda could make the next metroid game ( which by the way I know is not possible). He would really be able to add a new perspective to the Samus character and maybe shit on some people's rigid conventions.

He will make Samus a man.

 

[sonicmj1]

My response wasnt to the article. It was the bold part in your post.

I am a surgeon by profession. I already understand the human body.

Nothing you said has anything to do with the claims the bold part of the post represented, which are supported by the article.

They have nothing to do with anything you said.

 

[RustyNails]

The thing is, Ueda and his team seem to represent women as this priceless being, that is worth risking it all for. The girls in Ico and SotC are shown as delicate beings, one for which the characters wants to fight for (and makes us help him on their quests), hence the soft tone skins as well as white dress, and also why the male characters tend to have this more rough/tough characteristics.

But isn't that how most fairy tales are? The heroes usually saves the princesses.

 

[Torhthelm Tídwald]

He probably thought people he was talking to won't be oblivious to something so ridiculously obvious like that he modelled the world to our childhood fairytale concepts?

I really don't think that "women wear skirts" is as absolutely essential part of the fairytale mythos. Maybe it is in Japan, but not with the type of fairy tales I've been exposed to in the west. I mean, it's probably true of the "princess and gown" type, but not so much the stories involving young children.

(And even if he had put her in a skirt, they could have designed it to avoid deliberate upskirt shots.)

 

[ShockingAlberto]

He will make Samus a man.

"Girls have not traditionally worn power suits, so the decision to changer her..aaah, I'm not sure I should be saying this, but we decided that men would mostly want to play, so we made her a man. [laughs] It was controversial at the time, but you do not see women in power suits very often, do you?"

 

[BocoDragon]

No, that's not really true. There's a huge amount of variety in terms of how strongly gender roles are differentiated in different historical societies, how immutable those barriers are for individuals, and how much overlap between those roles exists between different historical cultures. Absolute gender dualism is by no means a universal of history.

I'm a history major Though I suppose there's always a new culture to study and I haven't nearly gotten to them all yet.

I think that's debatable though... While women and men may have filled equal and non-equal roles in terms of social structure... that they are considered different creatures, and tend to embellish those differences with different decorations (clothing), seems a constant through history. (until now?)

The idea that women wear skirts and men wear pants is an "ultra-modern" view. A quick perusal of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pants and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirts will reveal that both clothing items have been worn extensively by both men and women throughout history, with no strong consistency as to which item is assigned to which gender.

The pants article doesn't seem to assign pants to women until the 1970s (and "a hundred years earlier" which I still consider pretty modern). The skirts article is a little more open.. but that doesn't surprise me (kilts... and it's just loose fitting fabric, really. Pretty ancient and obvious for anyone to wear at one point or another). The point is more that gender differentiation in clothing is a constant before our era... and while that doesn't say "women must wear skirts"... in this kind of pseudo-fantasy with horses and swords, I do expect a traditional European or perhaps Asian female clothing style. But maybe that's my bias. In fantasy, it could be anything... But I think a role identifiable by the audience as "traditional" makes sense in the context of this world.

Well debated anyway... I'm off to drink

 

[Noshino]

But isn't that how most fairy tales are? The heroes usually saves the princesses.

Im not disagreeing :lol

 

[Trent Strong]

The author is a doctor writing in the British Medical Journal in effort to inform physicians of the problems with male physiology and prevent possible deaths/injury by the way society views men.

But what was the point of posting that article in this thread?

 

[anaron]

But what was the point of posting that article in this thread?

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Who cares what he thinks, it's his world/creation. Make your own with girls in pants and screaming faces with wavy bridges and orange paint.

 

[Lord Error]

But isn't that how most fairy tales are? The heroes usually saves the princesses.

I think it's also worth noting that there can hardly be any doubt in anyone who has finished the game, that Yorda is stronger of the two characters.

Spoiler

Destined for evil, and not succumbing to it until the last possible moment.

. It's a lesson in that appearances can be deceiving.

 

[GillianSeed79]

We could've had a fucking unicorn.

FEMALE WANDER SUPERIOR GAME OF THE FOREVER

Seriously. Tim Curry could have been the last boss and you could have Tom Cruise cosplaying Link. Oh, and little people. Imagine SoTC with little people. Someone get Ridley Scott on the phone.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Who cares what he thinks, it's his world/creation. Make your own with girls in pants and screaming faces with wavy bridges and orange paint.

You're right

Let's never talk about anything ever

 

[suzu]

They originally had the protagonist as a female, but then changed it because of skirts and grip strength.. What silly reasons. It's a video game! It's a fantasy world! Just put her in pants or throw some leggings/shorts under the skirt. I don't think many children in real life could be doing anything like the protagonist in TLG could do anyway.

Also that composer comment didn't help either lol.

 

[polyh3dron]

Megumi Fujii, bitches.

 

[GCX]

But isn't that how most fairy tales are? The heroes usually saves the princesses.

But it CAN work the other way around too.

See: Any Hayao Miyazaki movie (except Castle of Cagliostro)

 

[jett]

In SotC Agro is actually a female horse. Surely this piece of information is somehow relevant to the interests of this thread. Discuss!

 

[bernardobri]

oh, I'm sorry. What is this in response to?

The fact that the main character's gender in Last Guardian is irrelevant as long Ueda's vision gets fulfilled.

SotC... perhaps not.

But Ico?

I dunno... there is a small boy protecting a weak, rather useless, older girl. The strange emotions of "protection" that elicited probably were based on its elicitation of our knowlege of gender roles (whether engrained in us societal, biological, whatever).

I think changing the genders on Ico would have changed the meaning greatly.

Yorda is more closer to a clueless person rather than weak or useless. I guess isolation makes people shy or introvert regardless of the gender, don't you agree?

 

[beast786]

I am going to be really nice and not say anything other than you're stretching the truth incredibly here.

And apparently, you really need to read the article and begin understanding why it was written for you.

You dont have to be nice. How am I stretching the truth? I would really like to know.

Your statement "
and it just gets worse from a physiological standpoint from there."

My understanding of that statement was that men are in disadvantage from a physiological standpoint.

And my respond was in favor of that statement. Because, evolution sees female as more important gender for survival of species. Hence, physiologically is more protected.

 

[apana]

So is Trico a guy or a girl, I couldnt tell from the trailers?

 

[jett]

So is Trico a guy or a girl, I couldnt tell from the trailers?

When asked about the subject, Fumito Ueda refused to answer saying it was a "secret". High chance it's female. ICO had a male/female companionship/relationship, so did SotC(if Wikipedia sourcing Famitsu is to be believed).

 

[Torhthelm Tídwald]

It's not clear from the article whether he said this on his own or in response to a question. Does anyone know?

If during Q&A someone asking him why it was a boy again, I can understand that maybe he said something stupid because he was on the spot. But it makes it sound like this was something prepared in advance. Like these were his notes:

"Mention protag change from girl to boy. Give worlds stupidest reasons. Fart loudly."

or something like that.

I mean, I'm trying to think nice things about him, but he's not making it easy.

 

[HK-47]

No

A unicorn

A pegasus

 

[charlequin]

that they are considered different creatures, and tend to embellish those differences with different decorations (clothing), seems a constant through history.

I suggest finding an anthropology major and asking them about this.

The pants article doesn't seem to assign pants to women until the 1970s

There's a picture of a freaking Amazon wearing pants.

 

[hamchan]

I read his reasonings and went "that makes sense". Then I read the backlash. I must be a sexist too.

 

[RustyNails]

Im not disagreeing :lol

So you would agree to a statement that says fairy tales are sexist?