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[Lord Error]

Answer. The. Question. You dodged it. Would you actually be unable to suspend your disbelief if it was a girl?

I'd believe it less than I'd believe a boy could. Wait, I said that above too.

Why would I want to believe less in a reality of a game that is already pushing it in that sense?

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

It was probably lost in translation or said in jest or whatever. Does it really matter?

I do wish we knew more about the exact context and tone of the quote. But obviously it matters to some people. You're posting a little too late in the thread to pose that question anyway.

I'd believe it less than I'd believe a boy could. Wait, I said that above too.

Why would I want to believe less in a reality of a game that is already pushing it in that sense?

Really though? Would you really distinguish between the realism of a boy vs. a girl when you've already undertaken a much larger suspension of disbelief by accepting that any child can endure the physical challenges present in the game? (Or that there's a catbirdratdog.)

 

[Banjo Tango]

I feel like making a thread for all the posters with apathy and anger in response to gender issues in games being discussed. There's some weird thinking going on there and I just want to pick at it.

I've always thought it had to do with gamers being raised in a "boy's club" mentality where self-examination of the culture makes them uncomfortable.

Y'know, "It's 'Political Correctness' that's the problem, not me. The portrayal of men is just as exploitative! Why are we even talking about this?! etc..."

And even with my pitifully low expectations, I still can't believe all the, "His reasoning makes sense to me" responses.

Make your thread!

 

[Ploid 3.0]

I don't really want to poke the mob, but how many people get offended when male characters don't want to harm a very capable female character in a fight? Is the male sexist? Should he think that it is wrong for him to honor his aggressive attacker? I mean girls can fight, look at that picture of that girl owning that dude in this thread.



Maybe this guy has a sister that can't lift heavy stuff, and handle his mom with kitten gloves not letting her do heavy work. Personally I wouldn't want my mother cutting her yard, nor my sister. If they couldn't find some crew I'd do it myself. Not that I doubt their ability to push a light mower. Maybe the characters in his game are dedicated to members of his family. Also who knows how in context the quotes are. Did he have a stern look on his face, unbuttoning his color and rolling up his sleeves?

This thread seem like a lot of over reacting. I highly respect women and think they can do anything, heck I had at least one girl bully me as a kid. Women are more powerful than men in many ways, and I didn't see whats so outstanding in the first post. Well unless you really really want more girls as the main character that aren't sexed up. Yorda wasn't sexed u.. this might start another crazy discussion.

 

[Fredescu]

Why would I want to believe less in a reality of a game that is already pushing it in that sense?

I guess the better question is, should game developers pander to the likes of you?

 

[Banjo Tango]

Why would I want to believe less in a reality of a game that is already pushing it in that sense?

Why would a female protagonist be less believable?

 

[crazygambit]

Ugh.

There's a difference between representing "classically feminine" women, and basically outright stating that a woman in Ueda's universe is physically incapable of a pullup.

I think you'd be surprised at the percentage of women incapable of such a thing (hey, probably men too). Go to any high school or middle school gym class and you'll be surprised of the pitiful physical prowess of the average girl.

 

[Banjo Tango]

...when male characters don't want to harm a very capable female character in a fight... Is the male sexist?

Unquestionably.

 

[Lord Error]

I do wish we knew more about the exact context and tone of the quote. But obviously it matters to some people. You're posting a little too late in the thread to pose that question anyway.

The 'camera position' comment (again, the skirt was editor's assumption, although probably valid) of the original interview was said in jest, because I could swear seeing the all too known *laughs* printed next to that comment.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I'd believe it less than I'd believe a boy could. Wait, I said that above too.

It's a yes or no question. Would it break your suspension of disbelief? Not, is it more plausible than a boy if viewed from a realistic angle?

You're purposefully avoiding saying "yes" to that, because you know that saying such would either be an obvious lie to defend someone whose video games you like, or would mark you as a sexist.

 

[patsu]

Why would a female protagonist be less believable?

...or distracting. Even if a pixelated panty is showing, I might wonder what my wife is wearing tonight, for example. That takes me out of the experience.

It's like GTA4. I never got past the cellphone date. Every time that woman calls Niko (sp?), I remember I need to call my wife, and power down my PS3. :lol

 

[Despera]

Yep, Ueda is a "sexist" genius. I like him even more now.

Can someone remind me why we're discussing this trivial matter?

*sigh* Psycho-feminists. I swear to God...

 

[way more]

I don't really want to poke the mob, but how many people get offended when male characters don't want to harm a very capable female character in a fight? Is the male sexist? Should he think that it is wrong for him to honor his aggressive attacker? I mean girls can fight, look at that picture of that girl owning that dude in this thread.
.

By the simple definition of sexism, no.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I don't really want to poke the mob, but how many people get offended when male characters don't want to harm a very capable female character in a fight? Is the male sexist? Should he think that it is wrong for him to honor his aggressive attacker? I mean girls can fight, look at that picture of that girl owning that dude in this thread.

Beliefs that women/girls should be treated delicately or put on a pedestal fall under "benevolent sexism" and beliefs that women/girls are worse than men or stupid and shitty fall under "hostile sexism." So, yes, your example could be interpreted as a type of sexism.

 

[Banjo Tango]

Yep, Ueda is a "sexist" genius. I like him even more now.

Can someone remind me why we're discussing this trivial matter?

*sigh* Psycho-feminists. I swear to God...

I feel like I just won sexist-GAF bingo.

 

[Aeana]

I think you'd be surprised at the percentage of women incapable of such a thing (hey, probably men too). Go to any high school or middle school gym class and you'll be surprised of the pitiful physical prowess of the average girl.

Man, in every gym class I ever attended, it was a miracle if a single person could do one regardless of gender.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Yep, Ueda is a "sexist" genius. I like him even more now.

Can someone remind me why we're discussing this trivial matter?

*sigh* Psycho-feminists. I swear to God...

Even though I think this uproar is a little silly, you are rightfully going to be shit on for categorizing anyone who cares as a psycho-feminist.

 

[Lord Error]

It's a yes or no question.

Sorry, but it's not. There's a sliding scale to that sort of thing that has many factors that can contribute to it. Not the least of it a fact that it plays to our childhood fairytale sensitivities.

Really though? Would you really distinguish between the realism of a boy vs. a girl when you've already undertaken a much larger suspension of disbelief by accepting that any child can endure the physical challenges present in the game? (Or that there's a catbirdratdog.)

Gryphon is a complete non factor when it comes to these things. It's a creature to which abilities we're not familiar or have expectations for. It's like saying that in a movie about Superman, it would make sense to expect people accept that regular folks on the street can jump 50 feet high with no explanation given to it, just because we've already come to accept that there is Superman there, who can fly.

 

[Banjo Tango]

By the simple definition of sexism, no.

How so?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Sorry, but it's not. There's a sliding scale to that sort of thing.

Thank you for spelling out my point.

There are countless games where suspension of disbelief is firmly and perfectly intact despite the developers having endless viable options further towards the realistic side which they did not pursue.


Your refusal to say that your suspension of disbelief would be broken shows that The Last Guardian is such a game. If the game was shown with a female protagonist from the start, you would have never had a problem believing it at all, even if a boy is more believable (though I would have to question the mental health of someone who thinks it to be a significant difference in believability).

Not the least of it a fact that it plays to our childhood fairytale sensitivities.

Pure bullshit. Females can't have animal friends now? Females can't play by climbing around in places? These things don't exist in fairy tales?


I understand you love Ueda's games, but don't lie to defend him.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Is there any proof that Yorda is a girl? And don't say it's a girl because it appears it's wearing a dress. You're scum if you think you have to be a girl to wear a dress like that. They mostly spoke fairy language in the game (fairy as in mythical, Yorda has elf like ears and glowing skin. I wouldn't mean it in no other way, thin ice in this thread).

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Ueda fans are the best.

Even if I never intended to play his games, it would be worth it to click on any threads involving him.

 

[mrWalrus]

I hate to say it.. but this is one of the most embarrassing threads on GAF in a long while.

The man has an opinion, which was most likely taken out of context. Since I've not yet played the game, I have no real understanding of the dynamic, but form the outside I always thought of the story as a boy and his dog. Not that it couldn't be a girl, but who rightly cares? It's a game, made by a group of people who, in two attempts, have delivered two of the most timeless and trenchant gaming experiences ever created.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Also, "does it break your suspension of disbelief" is still a yes or no question. If your suspension of disbelief is slightly changed but still intact then the answer is "no."

 

[hauton]

I know I'm going to be railroaded as an apologist for Ueda, but the fact that they even considered a female lead is actually pretty progressive for the video games industry, to be brutally honest.

In my humble opinion, I support the choice of a male lead, if only because I strongly identify the "Boy and His Pet" theme that TLG seems to be trying to convey. Objectively, nothing's changed by making the protagonist a girl, but if you're looking at the demographics, the fact remains that you're mostly delivering to the XY chromosomes.

So while I'm certainly not going to discourage developers from nurturing more well-developed, stereotype-defying females, I can't exactly blame them for playing the numbers game when it comes to the business of these multi-million dollar games.

 

[Femmeworth]

A female protagonist would have been a nice change. Oh well. :\ The skirt comment is just facepalm inducing.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Ueda fans are the best.

Even more than Kojima or Nomura fans?

I know I'm going to be railroaded as an apologist for Ueda, but the fact that they even considered a female lead is actually pretty progressive for the video games industry, to be brutally honest.

From personal experience, I don't agree. At least not with western developers - it's standard practice to see male and female leads get designed during conceptual/prototyping stages in pre-production.

 

[Speevy]

Jade is far too weak, so she needs a big, strong pig to do stuff for her.

 

[Dresden]

Oh noes, not you too, Ueda-sama!

It's a pity that he's a sexist. He should go read Nausicaa again.

 

[etiolate]

Some of us just might feel that the pre-sexual protagonist's gender doesn't really amount to much as a gender issue. Yeah, the creator's reasons were dumb, but he could have come up with equally dumb reasons for choosing a girl (in fact, I'd wager big money that lots of reasons given for using a female protagonist are dumb). Which is the right choice? He could have said the character IS a girl, and people would be like "OK, it's a girl with short hair."

So again, even if his reasons are dumb, there isn't anything to talk about regarding "the portrayal of women in video games" because the game is about a child with no gender characteristics. People who haven't read the interview and don't know who the fuck Ueda is will not have their views of gender impacted in any way. If what we care about is the responsible or sensitive or enlightened (or whatever) portrayal of women in games, this game isn't relevant to that concern.



It's a good thing you didn't because you'd be yet another person submitting as evidence the physical abilities of a grown woman to try to make a point about the physical abilities of a child.

Considering he's had females as rescue objects and is making another game changing the gender for these reasons, its not much a stretch to think that there is a gender issue tied directly to his games. This was first brought up with Ico, but I didn't see enough of a reason to complain there. This is now the third game and the mentality behind the games is set.

That he could have made it a girl for equally dumb reasons doesn't change anything. The mentality is problematic.

 

[Banjo Tango]

I hate to say it.. but this is one of the most embarrassing threads on GAF in a long while.

Not going to disagree.

The man has an opinion, which was most likely taken out of context. Since I've not yet played the game, I have no real understanding of the dynamic, but form the outside I always thought of the story as a boy and his dog. Not that it couldn't be a girl, but who rightly cares? It's a game, made by a group of people who, in two attempts, have delivered two of the most timeless and trenchant gaming experiences ever created.

No one is saying this game isn't going to be amazing because of his views on gender-roles. Just that Ueda's reasoning is ridiculous... but it's also par for course in the gaming industry.

 

[Lord Error]

Your refusal to say that your suspension of disbelief would be broken shows that The Last Guardian is such a game.

If it's not broken, but just not as strong, that's not a good thing either. If its making things even a tiny bit worse in that sense, why do it? I don't understand how is this something that I fail to communicate.

Pure bullshit.

That was more of a comment related to his other games. I don't know enough about TLG yet to say such a thing with certainty. Definitely nothing bullshit about it when it comes to SotC and Ico though. They play to that sensitivity as strong as they can, although Ico doesn't shy of presenting Yorda as a stronger character in the end.

 

[Mush]

Oh GAF. Wouldn't have expected anything less.

 

[TheShampion]

Wait, maybe this has already been said, but isn`t the whole thing that it is not that Ueda is sexist, it is that he thinks so lowly of the people playing his game that they couldn`t make a woman protagonist without objectifying her? Its not that he has something against women, but he thinks that his fans do, and therefore makes potentionally artistic decisions on those assumptions?

 

[SirPenguin]

^^^ I think most people can easily see through his really thin reasoning. I think he's hoping people will believe that he's doing this for "those damn sexists" that are "totally not him", but that's an excuse that is of highschool caliber, honestly


It's obviously sexist. I'm surprised that's even being debated here, though I definitely see merit in arguing whether or not that type of sexism actually matters in terms of the game or even Ueda himself.

In any event, about a year ago I was just reading an article about how men wearing skirts in Japan is reaching an all time high trend in fashion. It always fascinates me that Japan is full of really incredibly close minded and bigoted people...yet it's one of the world's strangest places, with some of the most unique and fucking outlandish activities, media, locations, etc. etc.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

If it's not broken, but just not as strong, that's not a good thing either. If its making things even a tiny bit worse in that sense, why do it? I don't understand how is this something that I fail to communicate to you.

It wouldn't make it worse, unless the player was an idiot or a sexist. I clearly explained this. It's still perfectly intact, and that's what matters, even if a critical look at it showed more or less plausibility than another game. I failed to communicate that to you, only I understand the reason: the reason is "You love Fumito Ueda's games."







See, if Ueda had actually said that it was because it was a callback to fairy tales starring boys, or that it was a boy and his pet story and he felt those were more iconic than girl and her pet stories, or that it was because the primary audience would be males who would more closely identify with a boy to invoke childhood memories, there would be no outcry here.

But he didn't say those things. Don't imagine them up and then say, "See, Ueda isn't sexist, it's for this reason!" He didn't say them.

All we have to go on are his comments given in the thread title and those comments indicate that he felt that people playing a fantasy game wouldn't be able to believe a female to be capable of climbing or holding onto things. Don't try to wave that away as some kind of facade for some yet unknown real reason.

 

[mrWalrus]

Not going to disagree.

No one is saying this game isn't going to be amazing because of his views on gender-roles. Just that Ueda's reasoning is ridiculous... but it's also par for course in the gaming industry.

I'm sure each of us on this board have views that are equally as baffling to one another. I'm also sure that it's what makes each and every one of us beautiful and amazing human beings.

I just wish, that every so often, people can accept each other for the things that make us unique.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Anyone else curious as to what was up with that truth-stretching surgeon?

Spoiler

Sexism sre bad

 

[Banjo Tango]

If it's not broken, but just not as strong, that's not a good thing either. If its making things even a tiny bit worse in that sense, why do it? I don't understand how is this something that I fail to communicate to you.

I think he's taking issue with your reasoning that having a female lead is "not as strong" or "a tiny bit worse" for the plausibility of the story. I get that you're representing this as your opinion, but it is sexist... and I get the feeling you don't have a problem with that, so I suppose that marks the end of this conversation tree.

 

[Speevy]

I'm also sure that it's what makes each and every one of us beautiful and amazing human beings..

I'd say we are powerful and AMAZING people.

 

[Banjo Tango]

I just wish, that every so often, people can accept each other for the things that make us unique.

One thing that would help us GREATLY in that regard would be avoiding stereotypical gender roles, especially for nonsensical reasons.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Considering he's had females as rescue objects and is making another game changing the gender for these reasons, its not much a stretch to think that there is a gender issue tied directly to his games. This was first brought up with Ico, but I didn't see enough of a reason to complain there. This is now the third game and the mentality behind the games is set.

That he could have made it a girl for equally dumb reasons doesn't change anything. The mentality is problematic.

The mentality isn't problematic for me if it isn't manifested in some kind of "message" in the game. Yes, Ico depicts a boy helping a helpless girl, and in SotC the character is a male working to bring the girl back to life, and those reinforce certain gendered narratives that some people would like to see subverted. However, what is the sexist message of The Last Guardian? We know his thought process, but most who play it don't, so what is the "message" they will get from that game? They'll see a boy and an animal having an adventure. The mere presence of a male character instead of a female character doesn't send a sexist message, it doesn't make proclamations, it doesn't reinforce a gendered narrative. So for all the people who play the game without the knowledge of the creator's views of gender, what's the harm?

 

[Deleted member 30609]

The Ueda Tragics are that special breed of person who are usually well-articulate and thoughtful who are forced to grapple with their at times illogical love of the man.

 

[SirPenguin]

I'm sure each of us on this board have views that are equally as baffling to one another. I'm also sure that it's what makes each and every one of us beautiful and amazing human beings.

I just wish, that every so often, people can accept each other for the things that make us unique.

I cannot tell if you're joking or not. I really, really can't. I don't mean this in that stupid "ironic" way where someone pretends that your opinion is so outlandish it has to be trolling. I legitimately don't know how to respond.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I think he's taking issue with your reasoning that having a female lead is "not as strong" or "a tiny bit worse" for the plausibility of the story. I get that you're representing this as your opinion, but it is sexist... and I get the feeling you don't have a problem with that, so I suppose that marks the end of this conversation tree.

This. If "well, females are on average weaker than males, yet this female is performing acts of athleticism that the average male would have less difficulty performing" is enough to hurt your suspension of disbelief here, then you clearly have some kind of problem.

 

[Branduil]

But is the boy circumcised?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

But is the boy circumcised?

His colossus has no shadow.

 

[Chaser]

I still can't believe some are so quick to label him a sexist based on two translated comments on a 1UP live-feed.

Have the people holding that position played ICO? The strongest character in that game is Yorda (in a narrative sense). Both games do play with the "hero saves princess" archetype, but their use has an intentional, ulterior motive.
While I find both the 'skirt' and 'grip' issues both ridiculous, I don't know what his intention was in saying them or if they were even translated correctly, so this whole thread is just terrible.

 

[TheShampion]

But is the boy circumcised?

Probably not, since this is from Japan.

Source: http://www.circumstitions.com/Maps.html

 

[Aeana]

I still can't believe some are so quick to label him a sexist based on two translated comments on a 1UP live-feed.

Have the people holding that position played ICO? The strongest character in that game is Yorda. Both games do play with the "hero saves princess" archetype, but their use has an intentional, ulterior motive.
While I find both the 'skirt' and 'grip' issues both ridiculous, I don't know what his intention was in saying them or if they were even translated correctly, so this whole thread is just terrible.

Don't forget this awesome interview quote:

GS: The Wanda to Kyozou music was done by Kou Ohtani. Why did you choose him?
FU: ICO's composer was (female composer) Michiru Ohshima, and I didn't want to create the same image for this game. Aside from that, ICO was a game that both male and female players could enjoy equally. But I think this is a game that male players will enjoy more. So I chose a male composer.