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Game of Thrones is bad. Like, really bad. Here's why. (Spoilers)

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Nice write up topic creator. I got into the books through the show, and while I don't dislike it as much as you, there's a noticible difference. This seems common with any adaptation of a work, like Watchmen for example. At least for me, adaptations are only ever advertisements or highlight reels of the original work.
 

Faddy

Banned
The jetpack criticism is not about them not showing literal step a character takes, it is instead about characters defying space and time to get to places to move some plot, I know this might not seem like a big deal in today age of cars and airplanes, but traveling and movement was a huge huge thing in the time GoT is portraying, so having a character just teleport around is silly and bad writing.

EDITED: A perfect example of how current seasons have bullshited this, is in how long it took Arya to go from the Twins to Braavos the first time, while this season you just saw her teleport from Braavos to the twins.



If you really think its just a few iffy moments I really think you should check this out https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA/videos more precisely the "Preston's Game of Thrones" videos, it is genuinely entertaining even if you don't agree with it, and if you don't please do come and say why you think a lot of his arguments are wrong (genuinely want to see a fact based argument around this).


Travel is only shown when there are barriers or obstacles to be overcome by it.

How far can someone travel before it needs a scene?
If nothing interesting happens in the journey between two places what is the point of showing it?

Point to specific example where there a problem with travelling that can't simply be explained by "time passed"
 
The writing and plotting have gotten considerably worse as they've strayed further from the books, but it's still a fun show. I wouldn't put it in "masterpiece" territory but I don't think it's bad.
 

Budi

Member
The Wire, The Sopranos, Twin Peaks, Six Feet Under, Babylon 5

GoT is not bad. It just has moments where it's absolute shit and some seasons have too many of those. As for BB, I would say that it's simply boring, has bad characterization and too much forced drama. Maybe it's good by some metric, but I think it's a waste of time.

Great choices, love The Wire, Sopranos and B5. Wasn't expecting you to mention B5, it's my most rewatched show with Wire. Never seen an episode of Six feet under and I was too young to really appreciate and get what was going on in Twin Peaks (I was around 11-12 I think when it aired here and I saw it) but I remember it kinda fondly, the mood has stuck with me somehow. Should watch both of these shows sometime.

Twin Peaks, OZ and Tales from the crypt are shows I remember watching at late night television, when I was supposed be sleeping already and definitely not watching these shows. Thinking about Twin Peaks made me go down a memory lane.

But yeah there's definitely shitty parts in GOT, but I think most long running series are like that. Rarely anything is consistently excellent. And much of the stuff I see on TV is constant shit, without much of redeeming qualities. So I guess I can give it a pass because of that. And the highs of the show are high indeed.
 
Trump's election is not good excuse to shrug off bad writing. And even then, Trump's campaign is more plausible than what Euron pulled off. Don't forget, the people there don't know Euron, he literally came back two days earlier from a ten (or more) years long voyage around the world. So, if we were to compare it with Trump... imagine if the US election literally lasted one single day, then on that day a guy named Donald Trump comes barging in from out of nowhere, says that he killed his ex-wife and will kill his opposition if he's elected and then talks some shit about Mexicans. Would he still be elected? Because that's what happened with Euron in the show.

I specifically didn't want to bring the books into this, but it's important to point out the difference. In the books the arrival of Euron was pretty much the same, but with three key differences: 1. There were more possible candidates than just Euron and Asha/Yara, so the vote was already split. 2. Euron didn't go around claiming he killed the last king and 3. He had actual magic and proof of dragons to convince the Iron Islanders, while the rest had only promises. Of course, with the Iron Islanders all being a god-fearing supersticious bunch, that is worth quite a bit more, so it makes complete sense that they would elect someone who's clearly evil incarnate.

As for your second point, it's still fair to call it out IMO. The scene with Olenna and Varys happens at least a few weeks after blowing up the Sept, considering Olenna learned about her son's and grandkids deaths, then send a raven to the Sand Snakes about a meeting and then the Sand Snakes had to travel half the world to get to Olenna. Now, why the hell would no one in that meeting mention a major rebellion taking place in the capital when they're specifically talking about taking down Cersei? This pretty much confirms to me that the entire thing will be handwaved away in Season 7. Yeah, people will probably cheer when Dany comes riding in on her dragons, but in a world with realistic consequences, Dany would come in and find that Cersei's head is already on a pike somewhere.


We can actually compare though, because the situation as it happens in the show is literally impossible in the books, since neither Shireen nor Melisandre are anywhere near Stannis. Sure, Shireen will still die on the pyre, but Stannis will not have anything to do with it.

To be honest we don't really have any characters in Kings Landing that can even contest with Cersei, besides Jaime. I hope they go down that route instead of just letting Cersei do a bunch of evil shit with no consequence until Dany arrives. And I agree that the Euron scene is pretty bad writing compared to the rest of season, I liked the Greyjoy storyline a lot in the books. I just think it's not as unbelievable of a scene as others make out. Sure, the US election would never happen the way you described but Game of Thrones is set in an entirely different fictional world, and a pretty fucked up world at that.
 

hyp3rlink

Member
This is very similar to Erigu pointing out the awfulness of LOST. In both the cases, the shows provide an amazing hour of TV and great anticipation for the upcoming episodes.

I watch it - I like it! No amount of analysis can prove otherwise.
 

nkarafo

Member
There are two scenes that somewhat hurt the show for me.

1)
Jaime killing his cousin in order to escape
2)
Stannis burning his daughter

The first one is bad because now the show tries to make Jaime sympathetic or something but what he did and the way he did it was too brutal to forget. The second one is bad because it's only there for shock value only, plus it didn't even make much sense.

Other than those two, i'm pretty OK with anything else. Except maybe the way Sparrow took over the mighty kingdom but eh.
 
Lulz at ASoIaF being consistent. The books have been downhill since the middle of book 3 and are only getting worse.

The tv show isn't great but it's the only thing we have now.
 

SURGEdude

Member
It's getting worse as time goes on, that's for sure. I'm not a book reader so no comparisons there, but they keep killing good characters, dragging out narrative lines, and so on.

The worst crime of the show is how disjointed it feels. The length of each story surely can't line up, but they present everything as if it's happening at the same time. It's become a bigger problem as the show has continued.

Yeah my issue with it is how disjointed it is too. It's also quite uneven. Some of the plotlines are so plodding they render large sections of any season boring. The most recent example was the Arya snoozefest storyline.
 

irriadin

Member
I don't completely agree with the OP, but he's definitely not entirely wrong either. I am a book reader, and I've stalled out on watching the TV show. I'm currently in the middle of Season 5 and I'm completely disgusted with how the show has handled certain things in deviation from the book. Namely speaking of
Jaime and Barristan Selmy. Jaime was poised for some great character development, similar to what happened in the book. But then he basically devolves into some sad caricature of who he used to be. Just sans a hand and a lot more bitter. What a way to butcher his character arc.

And then Ser Barristan Selmy is used as a cheap, throw-away death for pure shock value. What a disgraceful and pointless end for a great character.
. And I heard what happens with Stannis, and that was enough to really dampen my enthusiasm for continuing.

I love Seasons 1-4, but I'm going to try to check my expectations at the door for any following seasons.
 

MartyStu

Member
I don't completely agree with the OP, but he's definitely not entirely wrong either. I am a book reader, and I've stalled out on watching the TV show. I'm currently in the middle of Season 5 and I'm completely disgusted with how the show has handled certain things in deviation from the book. Namely speaking of
Jaime and Barristan Selmy. Jaime was poised for some great character development, similar to what happened in the book. But then he basically devolves into some sad caricature of who he used to be. Just sans a hand and a lot more bitter. What a way to butcher his character arc.

And then Ser Barristan Selmy is used as a cheap, throw-away death for pure shock value. What a disgraceful and pointless end for a great character.
. And I heard what happens with Stannis, and that was enough to really dampen my enthusiasm for continuing.

I love Seasons 1-4, but I'm going to try to check my expectations at the door for any following seasons.

Hardhome is really the only episode of season 5 worth watching. The rest of the season is a mess.

Season 6 not only returns to form, but is genuinely impressive.
 

Faddy

Banned
There are two scenes that somewhat hurt the show for me.

1)
Jaime killing his cousin in order to escape
2)
Stannis burning his daughter

The first one is bad because now the show tries to make Jaime sympathetic or something but what he did and the way he did it was too brutal to forget. The second one is bad because it's only there for shock value only, plus it didn't even make much sense.

Other than those two, i'm pretty OK with anything else. Except maybe the way Sparrow took over the mighty kingdom but eh.


He pushed Bran out the window. He meant to kill an innocent child and I'm supposed to be shocked he killed a cousin.

In the books when that cousin dies Jaime doesn't give a shit about him. "Have no fear I am amply provisioned in cousins". The way it was done in the show was to underline that for Jaime family and kin only went as far as Tywin, Cersei and Tyrion.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
As a fan of the books, I think the show is entertaining. It's a fairly well executed adaptation of a fairly complex fantasy book series. It can't match the books in terms of depth and detail, especially being a television series with a limited budget, but it's a nice adaptation. Not the best adaptation of the series, but better than anyone would expect from such a packed set of novels. I'm just glad they managed to pull it off as well as they have. It easily could have fallen into Legend of the Seeker levels (to be fair, I loved Legend of the Seeker, because it was fun and campy and very Sam Raimi Xena/Hercules; but it was a god awful adaptation of the first two books. Once I understood it wasn't going to be like the books, I was able to sit back, enjoy the camp, and swoon over Bridget Regan).

GoT takes massive liberties with the characters, because so much of the complexity of them in the books is buried in all of the inner monologues and characters recalling important events that have shaped their character. The show has to tread a thin line between showing as much of that characterization through actions and facial expressions (which can leave a ton of room for interpretation, especially incorrect ones), or having two characters sit around and talk about how XYZ happened when they were young, and this is why they are the man/woman they are today.

Tyrion is a fucked up dude in the books. He has issues. Issues that we can work out way through understanding because we have a few thousand pages through sort our thoughts across. The show doesn't have that luxury. Tyrion is meant to be sympathetic, and he is in the books, even when he's being a insufferable cunt. The show has to tread carefully with all of that gray area and nuance because reading about a flawed character with a lot of gray areas is different than seeing a flawed character with a lot of gray area being deplorable on screen.

Different mediums require different ways of executing similar goals. I think the characters we've gotten in the show are close enough to their book counterparts in terms of characterization for this adaptation. Naturally they aren't spot on or perfect, but the show isn't a literal 1:1 adaptation, and never will be. It's at least why I can still be excited for the upcoming books, because so much is still left to be shown. I'm into the series for more than just the big, key moments (i.e., R+L=J, for example). There's more meat on the bones of A Song of Ice and Fire that GoT or any adaptation of GoT could never hope to match.

With that said, I'm not going to outright dismiss your opinion. If the show isn't to your liking, it's not to your liking. I don't always love every adaptation of my favorite books, video games, and cartoons, but not everything is going to be what you like or want.
 
The article isn't about the books you see? So it's not relevant at all. And that article doesn't make the claim that the show would be triumph of feminism over the books. Get a hold of yourself man.

I enjoy how you ignored the other parts of my post concerning S6 and feminism. Regardless of whether the show keeps to the books or not articles claiming S6 is some triumph of feminism are just plain nonsense or fail to understand what feminism is besides "women in power." S6 is full of women using violence as a means to gain ultimate power, just like everyone else in this world. That is now feminism. It's not feminism when Cercei blows up the most religious site in Westeros to destroy all her political enemies and then use her Zombie monster to rape her former Nun captor until her mind breaks. It's not feminism when Ellaria and the Sand Snakes murder their kind hearted uncle and cousin to seize Dorne in a selfish lust for revenge. It's not feminism when Aria cuts up the family members of Walder Frey and then feeds said members to him in a human stuffed pie.

Do I need to go on? All of that is just the same dumb theme that the show believes the books mainly convey, that violence is the ultimate form of power which all other derive. It's not though and just because women are currently benefiting from this concept doesn't make it feminism.

He pushed Bran out the window. He meant to kill an innocent child and I'm supposed to be shocked he killed a cousin.

In the books when that cousin dies Jaime doesn't give a shit about him. "Have no fear I am amply provisioned in cousins". The way it was done in the show was to underline that for Jaime family and kin only went as far as Tywin, Cersei and Tyrion.

You're missing the point, Jaimie isn't needlessly cruel and cares about his family above all. He pushed Bran out the window because the alternative was death for him, Cercei, and his children. In the books, Jaimie may not have thought much of Cleos Frey but he would never have killed him to simply escape. Again, this is a world where kinslaying is viewed as the most grievous sin of all. Also, his flippant attitude about Cleos' death was a show for Brienne so he could distract her while he grabbed for a sword. He later expresses regret when speaking to his Aunt about his death. The show just doesn't get Jaimie.
 

reckless

Member
But there are countless examples in this thread about the changes and why are they are bad.

A lot of the changes are just because its a TV show, can't really blame the show for that you can't adapt a book word for word.

Yeah there are some boring and bad things in the show (oh god dorne), like any show but it ain't a bad show.
 

riotous

Banned
Have never read the books; I greatly enjoy the show myself.

It will be interesting to read the books when the show is over. I prefer doing it that way.
 

samn

Member
Hmm...it's almost as if things have to be adapted from the source material to play well on screen...what a strange and foreign concept.

This line can be used against any criticism of an adaptation without having to actually engage in specifics. It's an utterly pointless thing to say.
 

Abelard

Member
I agree the writing is garbage, but I will continue to watch it because I just want to know how this franchise ends because God knows GRRM isn't giving it to us anytime soon.

It is, in many ways pure dumb fun post Season 1. I actually liked that S4 revealed in the schlockiness and dropped the pretense that this show was supposed to be high art or something.
 

sinxtanx

Member
It's utterly baffling what happened to the show after S4 was done (characters were already sliding downhill in S3, but after S4 it just gets bizarre)

After they were done adapting ASOS, you'd naturally expect the show to combine AFFC and ADWD, strip away the bad parts and just deliver all the good stuff. Not strip away all the good stuff, and add (ADD!?) some of the worst fanfiction put to screen. It's like they don't want anyone to care about the story after season 4, please just watch the pretty pictures.

Edit: srsly S5 and S6 are badly written on their own in a vacuum no adaption argument needed
 
You guys know what else had shit writing but great action, cinematography and a fantastic sound track?

Batman vs Superman.

BvS REDEEMED.
 

Micael

Member
Travel is only shown when there are barriers or obstacles to be overcome by it.

How far can someone travel before it needs a scene?
If nothing interesting happens in the journey between two places what is the point of showing it?

Point to specific example where there a problem with travelling that can't simply be explained by "time passed"

A) Travel is very much not only shown when there are barriers or obstacles to be overcome by it, case and point Samwell Tarly, unless ofc we count him puking on a boat as a barrier or obstacle, or maybe it was all an elaborate fat joke from the show creators, and they are proposing that he is so fat that him being fat is a barrier or obstacle.

B) My point wasn't that they had to show people travel, merely that traveling takes time, so to have people travel journeys that would take them months to possibly years and put that on the same episodes (let alone same seasons) of people doing things that would just take a few hours, is at the very least a severe editing issue.

As for a specific example I give you little finger and the teleporting vale army, which just moved itself instantly as needed with no real issues, I mean its not as if they have to basically travel through a bunch of Bolton controlled north to get to Winterfell.

Another example that springs to mind is the teleporting Sand Snakes, which were seen looking at the boat leaving for kings landing and then next time we see them they are inside the boat.

I mean maybe I'm just picky, but that is the sort of leap in time and space that I think deserves some acknowledgement and an explanation, now granted I can definitely see it all being explained by just time passing, given enough time it is potentially possible to invent time travel, go back in time and give them teleporting technology to overcome these issues, but you know sounds a bit far fetched even if we believe the theory that the show is actually sci-fi.
 

Raylan

Banned
I agree... somehow.
Simply see it as a different thing. A show on its own. Then it's okay.
Game of Thrones = The TV thingy
ASoIaF = The books
 

zer0das

Banned
I mean, the books aren't better by the time you roll around to A Dance with Dragons, and the show is actually going to wrap up soon. So at least they've got that going for them.

But seriously, I don't understand how people who have read the books can treat them as some amazing piece of literature that is being denigrated by the show when the last two books were largely awful.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Yeah I'm with you OP, the show took a turn for the worse sometime in S2 where D&D had the brilliant idea to completely butcher Jon and Dany's storylines... and it only went downhill from there.

I still enjoy the show for what it is, an exploitative and juvenile adaption of one of my favorite book series, but you really have to turn your brain to enjoy it. It does help that the insane production values gives it the "illusion" of a good show, but upon a closer look the script is pretty laughable (outside of S1 where the used dialogue straight from the book).

Doesn't help they butchered by favorite character Stannis, Dillane was awesome in his portrayal (you'l always be the badass Stannis you were meant to be in my head cannon Steve!) but D&D had some sort of agenda against him. I shouldn't expect too much from the writer of X-men: Origins Wolverine but that first season is literally one of my favorite seasons of any TV show, so it will always be heartbreaking how much of a nosedive the show took. And its not even the idea of adapting an existing work, heck forget the books for a second- the dialogue is cringeworthy and full of one liners meant to sound "badass" and "memeworthy" as opposed to developing character, and the characters are often compromised by the plot- Loras being a good example as you pointed out.
 
I mean, the books aren't better by the time you roll around to A Dance with Dragons, and the show is actually going to wrap up soon. So at least they've got that going for them.

But seriously, I don't understand how people who have read the books can treat them as some amazing piece of literature that is being denigrated by the show when the last two books were largely awful.

Calling either the show or last two books awful is strong hyperbole.

The latest two books are bloated as hell, but there's some fantastic world building.
 

sinxtanx

Member
upon a closer look the script is pretty laughable (outside of S1 where the used dialogue straight from the book).

Hell, it's not like they can't write good material. One of the best scenes in S1 (Robert talking with Cersei about the Dothraki) is entirely original. The writers simply choose badass memery.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
This is such a bullshit pretentious thing to say.

It's fine if you simply don't like the show, but "junk food"? Come on now.

But that's exactly what it is, or at least has been for the last few seasons. At this point there's no depth to the show, it has nothing to say. It's pure pulp entertainment with very little else to recommend it. Look at the showrunners' own comments about themes being for schoolchildren's book reports, a sure sign that they're either uninterested in or unable to craft a show that uses its story and characters to say something or show something greater than what it's about on a literal plot-related basis.

By definition, that's TV "junk food" programming. They're out to wow you with effects and gore and sex and that's that. Anyone who goes further than that can be dismissed, by the showrunners' own consent, as "overthinking it." It's a candy bar of a TV show at this point, and that's not to say that candy bars aren't delicious or should never be eaten, but let's not pretend it's a square meal, either.
 
...and after that only ever gave him blow jobs because she liked the idea of eating thousands of his children...

That sounds like something an edgy teen would write between visits to hot topic and cinnabon.
 

88random

Member
I completely agree with everything the OP said. The 1st season was the only really good one, 2nd and 3rd were kinda ok, and the rest was pretty bad.
 

jfkgoblue

Member
The show is fine, comparing a TV show to novels is not really fair. You can't see a character's inner thoughts with a visual medium. There are some things the show does better than the books(such as vastly trimming down Brienne's "I'm looking for a highborn maid of three and ten."), but you do bring up some good points. Show Jaime is awful, his story arc is supposed to be one of redemption, but he is still pining for Cersei in season 6? Tyrion was whitewashed into an almost completely good guy, but he isn't as bad in the books as you make him out to be, just look at his interactions with Penny(and yes I know that at one point he thought about murdering her). Jon Snow is dumbed down in the show, but his portrayal isn't that awful.

The only things that were truly terrible with the show when compared to the books was Tolisa Stark(or whatever her name was). That completely ruined Robb's character from breaking his vow out of honor verses just because he's an idiot. Show Dorne was terrible as well of course(huge opportunity missed for a strong independent female character in Arienne, who in the books is heiress to Dorne, not Tristan, as Dorne was more "progressive" and had inheritance by age without regard of gender)

But there are some things the show does better: more Bronn for one. He is such a great character and after ASoS he basically vanishes, it was awesome too see him more. Also show Mereen was a lot better than the "Mereenese knot" in the books(besides the bullshit they pulled with Selmy of course). I also liked that they actually had Tyrion meet Dany in the show instead of a tease right before she flew away.

So all in all, yes the books are better, but that is true for 99% of adaptations. The show is still good and while it does tend to simplify the characters, that is to be expected when adapting for a visual medium. It is best at this point to view them as two separate stories with the same base and world.
 
Thank you, OP, for listing the reasons why the show is garbage compared to the novels. I quit watching after season 2.

I would add to the list of grievances the hatred Tyrion has for his father because he makes Shae his personal whore after Tyrion thinks he has fallen in love.

And yet HBO Game of Thrones is still 100 times better than you show version of The Walking Dead.
 

riotous

Banned
But that's exactly what it is, or at least has been for the last few seasons. At this point there's no depth to the show, it has nothing to say. It's pure pulp entertainment with very little else to recommend it. Look at the showrunners' own comments about themes being for schoolchildren's book reports, a sure sign that they're either uninterested in or unable to craft a show that uses its story and characters to say something or show something greater than what it's about on a literal plot-related basis.

Interestingly enough, the writer of the article who brought the "themes are for book reports" quote to light seems to really disagree with you.

This is in the same article:

avid Benioff's initial pitch was for ”The Sopranos in Middle Earth," and that's exactly what he's delivered, a widescreen epic as unafraid of nuance and depth as it is of nudity and gore.

http://grantland.com/features/the-return-hbo-game-thrones/

The entire article seems to contradict your opinion that the show runners statement is about how the show doesn't have or need depth. The quote is really meant to just be taken on it's own; the writers don't believe in over-arching themes. These same writers believe in depth of character and a depth to the plot itself.

At least that's what the person who actually interviewed the show runners came away with; and I tend to agree with that assessment. There's a ton of depth to the characters in GOT; you'll just NEVER have the same amount of depth between a book and a TV series, even a long one. The audio books take nearly 200 hours to get through for instance; the TV series is what, 70 hours? And it went past the books ending didn't it?
 

Jay Sosa

Member
no shit. been saying that for years. I mean sure, it's not terrible by any means..but whenever I see comparisons to the sopranos, the wire and shit like that I'm honestly confused by how people can seriously be saying that.

again, not a bad show by any stretch..but possibly best ever? gtfo

If the show was bad then how am I enjoying it? Explain that please.

Some (most?) of the most watched shows on TV right now aren't exactly the cream of the crop when it comes to quality. meaning A LOT of people enjoy watching 'bad' shows...
 

Black_Sun

Member
Nah it's one of the best shows on tv right now, just because it's different from the books doesn't make it bad.

What makes it bad isn't that it's different from the books. It's the shoddy-writing like the plot holes and characters acting out of character for the sake of plot.

Also a complete thematic mangling of the original series and trying to be edgier than the books.

Show Hound- Same dude in the end, the septon that was trying to preach peace to him gets brutally murdered, he sets off on a one episode revenge quest and proves that violence is the only way and that this whole thing about peace is just laughable.

Book Hound- He finds inner peace on the Quiet Isle as a gravedigger after a lifetime of hatred with the help of a septon.

I think there was an article once saying that the show was created by nihilists while the books were created from a disappointed romantic.
 
I enjoy it, I look forward to it, but I also think what the OP is saying is fair. I have no allusions that I'm actually watching greatness.
 
What makes it bad isn't that it's different from the books. It's the shoddy-writing like the plot holes and characters acting out of character for the sake of plot.

Also a complete thematic mangling of the original series and trying to be edgier than the books.

Show Hound- Same dude in the end, the septon that was trying to preach peace to him gets brutally murdered, he sets off on a one episode revenge quest and proves that violence is the only way and that this whole thing about peace is just laughable.

Book Hound- He finds inner peace on the Quiet Isle as a gravedigger after a lifetime of hatred with the help of a septon.

I think there was an article once saying that the show was created by nihilists while the books were created from a disappointed romantic.

Let's be clear, book Hound is clearly coming back and it will be thematically important for his character.

Love your last comment though, Martin is clearly a romantic and whenever people talk about how depressing/overly negative the world is I get confused, like it's not anymore negative than our actual world, and I don't really see how someone could read say Theon's arc and not believe it's one of the most beautiful/hopeful/human/optimistic pieces of work ever put down to page.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I have mixed feelings about the show but essentially everything in this strikes me as wrong

1. Characterisation

Remember in the books, when Tyrion almost raped Sansa (who is twelve) on their wedding night before changing his mind? Or when he raped that sex slave in Volantis? How he repeatedly thinks about how much he wants to rape Cersei? Or when he threatens to rape and murder Tommen just to get at Cersei? Well, show Tyrion would never do that. He is Such A Good Guy. Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character. He's also quite clearly D&D's favourite character. The difference being that in the latter case, every other character on the show has to warp to accommodate him. Daenerys literally gets kicked out of her ADWD plotline so Tyrion can take over and show off how Awesome he is and how much better he is at ruling. Sansa kneels at her wedding, destroying one of her strongest acts of resistance in the books all for the sake of Tyrion not looking bad. He's such a good guy, why WOULDN'T Sansa kneel for him? God, what a bitch. And, lest we forget, Tyrion is the Abe Lincoln of his time. He's also the most famous dwarf in the world, and he is The Gift.

You seem very upset that the books aren't the TV show.

Plot and writing

Even people who still like the show admit the writing is pretty awful. And it really is. Nothing makes sense. Ellaria decides to avenge Oberyn by... murdering his entire family. And no one seems to have any problems with a bastard woman taking over Dorne?

Because the writing is so bad we actually have a very good understanding of why she did this. She announces to the king that she is murdering him because he sat idly by as Oberyn's sister was raped and murdered, and as Dorne's stock in the world declines.

Arya is a hot fucking mess. She kills the Waif, who hates her for no apparent reason, and this makes her no one?

The Waif hates her because she feels, probably correctly, that Arya is not worthy of the invitation to train. Jaqen explains what happens after that: the Many-Faced God (i.e. Death) had a kill stolen from him, and the kill must be repaid, it seems unimportant to their philosophy who the kill is. Again, this mostly seems a projection that you like their philosophy in the book better than in the show. And it's not really clear that Arya is in any """"official"""" capacity "No One", rather that she mastered the skills required to quit and go on her own. If someone drops out of school 3 years in, they don't get a degree, but that doesn't mean it's surprising that they have enough knowledge to go do a job. If you're asking why Jaqen doesn't try to kill her for leaving, that seems to be a loose end, but not one you expressed in your rant.

Stannis getting annihilated by Ser Twenty of House Goodmen, then deciding to burn his daughter because they've been without food for like a day, even though he's the man who survived the siege of Storm's End by eating book leather and rats for A YEAR?

I have no idea what any of this is about but the show pretty clearly motivates Stannis (and his wife's) actions by their religious fervor and delusions of grandeur. It's also pretty clearly articulated that Stannis in some regards rejects his daughter because of the greyscale. He is a bad father and a bad man. It's not exactly confusing what goes on here, and even during the burning his wife realizes what a grave transgression it was and how they've lost sight of what's important

Robb deciding to say fuck it to his marriage vows and marrying Talisa because YOLO (as opposed to doing it for honour, which creates a parallel with Ned, hmm, it's almost like this is a THEME or something) which leads directly to the deaths of him, his wife, his unborn child and his mother. Nice one, Robb. I could go on.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but the show pretty straightforwardly motivates him as doing whatever it takes for love, which is a motif that is recurrent in the show: Brienne; Jaime; and Jon. Making a character have less connection to Ned and more to other characters thematically isn't a right or wrong decision, it's just you're mad that the show isn't the books.

Every character has a jetpack and Westeros exists in a warp that distorts time. This is the only explanation I can think of for the timeline. Yara goes from the Iron Islands to the Dreadfort in less than a season, even though this would require sailing around the entire continent, but Gilly's baby is still a baby and Myrcella has been in Dorne for years! Littlefinger is a most industrious teleporter, zipping from the Eyrie to Moat Cailin to Mole's Town in a matter of days, apparently. Sansa and Jon's walking tour of the North takes months, presumably, but Cersei's trial is "in a few days". And Jaime got all the way from Dorne to King's Landing, but Doran has only just received news of Myrcella's death? This attempt at a coherent timeline makes for fun reading.

Almost all of this seems based on maps in the books. The world is smaller in the show. There are occasional instances where continuity gets whacky, particularly with respect to Littlefinger and Varys, but you seem very upset that the TV show doesn't go into as much geographic detail as the books.

"Themes are for eighth grade book reports," an actual quote by David Benioff

ASOIAF is a very thematically cohesive body of work. Themes of identity ("Theon, my name is Theon, you have to know your name"), themes of family and love, the intersection of the personal and political, so on. Game of Thrones dislikes themes, because according to the showrunners, who have Masters degrees in Creative Writing, themes are for eighth grade book reports. No, I will not stop quoting that, because it will never stop being stupid. It's almost like Jon and Dany's ADWD arcs are direct parallels to each other or something? And that Sandor as the gravedigger is finally at peace? That Cersei is a foil to basically every major female character, like Sansa, Dany, Arianne, Catelyn, Arya, and Brienne? Brienne and Jaime's arcs in AFFC also parallel each other, as both struggle with questions of what it means to be a knight, and what the true meaning of honour is, and with their place in the world - Brienne as a woman who does not conform to gender expectations, and Jaime as a disabled person. In the show Jaime's disability is mostly forgotten (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau had to point out to D&D that Jaime might have trouble fighting now that, you know, his sword hand is chopped off) and Brienne is just a murdering brute who doesn't seem to question herself at all. The show's themes consist of "revenge is good!". Sansa sics dogs on Ramsay, Arya brutally murders people, Brienne abandons Sansa to kill Stannis yet faces no repercussions for this decision, and all of these are portrayed as good things. Even though they're actually kind of disturbing.

There is a lot here, but lots of themes exist in Game of Thrones. From the outset, Ned Stark executes a traitor--one that we sympathize--for honor. This sets up Ned as an honorable person, and the value and costs of honor are a theme that the show engages with repeatedly. Consider the execution of the traitors against Jon Snow. A perverse karma: that cruelty happens to good and bad alike is also a feature of the show. We see bad people be punished and cheer, but we equally see unfair and despicable acts of cruelty. Brienne repeatedly engages with her gender, both in totally over the top exposition dialogue sequences and in how she carries herself. How many times does she have to correct people about not being a knight? This season featured an entire bottle episode about the Hound whose primary theme was an examination of whether it is possible to escape the trauma inflicted on one by one's upbringing (the show answers a pessimistic no). The show's politics repeatedly have a hoist-by-ones-petard quality: Cersei takes action against Margaery, and the same action has her swept up by the sept. Ditto the Red Wedding. Ditto basically every story, including the origin story of the White Walkers: in their efforts to control men by creating White Walkers, the Children of the Forest are destroyed by their creations. The shift from a Machievellian realpolitik where all political actions are motivated solely by power to the nuance of making the world a better place expressed by both Dany and Tyrion mirrors the shift from pre-modern Divine Rule of Kings to the prescriptions of modernity and liberal thought. Dany's takeover of the Khal mirrors Muhammed's takeover of Bedouin Arabia. Just because you miss this stuff doesn't mean it's not there. Sorry.

No, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Brienne and Ellaria brutally and remorselessly murdering people is not "empowering". Violence isn't empowering. Violence is just violent.

Every serious examination of violence, including rape, motivates and grounds it in the expression of power; and every serious examination of power, including political power, motivates and grounds it in the expression of violence. You would be laughed out of a room of anyone with ten brain cells if you claimed that violence and power were not connected. That the show is also pornographic in its depiction of violence and much of it is thematically unearned is a problem, but you badly miss.

Then there's the Dothraki, who are admittedly problematic in the book as well, but this is taken up to eleven in the show. Dany burns down their most sacred temple with all their khals inside and instead of killing her they bow to her, because those savage brown people know their place.

This is so explicitly a metaphor for Muhammed's taming of the Bedouin Arab world it isn't funny. The rules and guidelines of Islam are all clearly and cleanly read as a historical response to divisions in the Bedouin world: Why is Islam so hung up on the sanctity of Allah and his name? Because of idolatry and multitheism in the Bedouin world. Why does Islam have such specific rules about marriage? Because even though they seem premodern, they replaced sexual conquest and slavery from the pre-Islamic Arab world. And like Danaerys, Muhammed subdued the Bedouin world through conquest and violence, not merely preaching and conversion. Modernization processes (or development processes if you rather) is sometimes organic, and it is sometimes through violent conquest. Your desire to see this through a racial lens misses and obvious and nonracial historical metaphor. Even the horses are a 1:1 metaphor.

And Tyrion whitesplaining to Missandei and Grey Worm in Meereen, fucking kill me. When Missandei told Tyrion he didn't understand what it was to be a slave I fucking cheered. You go girl. Tell that condescending asshole.

You seem to view this as racist, but you correctly observe that Tyrion's privilege is addressed and problematized in the show. A show engaging with imperialism is not the same as a show being imperialist.

And then in season 6, the gay man gets tortured and scarified with religious iconography before getting blown up.

Yes, because the church's hypocritical and abusive moral code causes a pogrom across the city, one that ultimately ends in violence to all parties.

Oberyn and Ellaria, both bisexual, live in a fucking brothel. In the book, Oberyn makes an offhand comment about them "sharing a beautiful blonde", but they also have four young children together and are doting parents. But no, those crazy brown bisexuals amirite.

However the books write these two, the show writes them as libertines and hedonists. This is both a historical thing and something present in the modern world. The show doesn't slut shame them and they are given ample opportunity to explain their philosophical views on love, sex, possession, jealousy, and pleasure. That they happen to be what appears to be southern Italian or north African seems wholly unimportant to their portrayal. I guessed that Dorne was supposed to be Majorca or maybe Crete geographically and the people were somewhere between Sicilian and Moroccan. I'm not an architect but visually the setting made me think of Islamic Spain. Is there a racial stereotype about people from that part of our world and unchained sex? To me libertinism and hedonism seem more to be an indictment of historical cultures like late Rome or post-revolutionary France. Do you have a different read of history?

Ableism. Jaime, Jaime, Jaime. He stops a sword with his golden hand! How wacky.

This is totally bizarre. Modern dis/ability studies and standpoint theory typically reconceive "disability" as diversity: that each person has something to contribute, and while we require respect and awareness of disability, we also need to allow the disabled to forge their own paths, and recognize that to the extent that disability shapes someone, it also gives them a valuable and different perspective. This is true for everything from studies of autism to studies of intellectual or physical impairment. Certainly it would be eye-rolling and ableist if this was a Captain Planet 1980s Liberal Superpower thing, but that's not at all how the show portrays it. In that particular fight, Jaime tries to catch the sword out of reflex, as we see several characters (including the Hound) throughout the show do. It's a risky gambit that comes with great chance of injury, but can provide the character the opportunity to counter and go for the kill. At the moment Jaime grabs it, there's a Wile E. Coyote moment where he's off the cliff but hasn't realized he's going to fall yet. Jaime and his aggressor alike are not expecting what happens. Jaime quickly capitalizes on the opening, showing his tactical skill in spite of the fact that he's a weaker swordfighter than he once was. Moreover, above you complain that Jaime's disability is insufficiently relevant to the show--but when would it be relevant if not combat, and how would it be relevant if not a scene that primarily demonstrates Jaime's diminished capacity as a swordsman?

And Hodor, because disability can't just be, it has to have a reason behind it. I know this is taken from the books

This is a thematic statement about a recurring thing in the books where the elite, the nobles, and the strong use and discard the weak and ordinary. Hodor is a peasant kid growing up in the circle of nobility. He is loyal and wants to help. And in the end, due to time loop shenanigans, a little noble just now understanding the burden of leading makes a choice to sacrifice Hodor's entire life. It also recasts Hodor as a tragic figure: the person we once thought was simple but happy in fact suffered from being locked in his entire life, knowing the fate that would one day befall him. Poignant.


This is an extremely bad blog rant and I have no idea why the thread was left open because there is essentially no argument made here, it's just an enormous info dump about book canon combined with some recycled Vox thinkpiece rants about social issues in Game of Thrones.

The show is not an amazing show for so many reasons (pacing, plotting, overly literal interpretations of the book, boring combat setpieces, stale writing, sexposition, too many characters, too much moving the pieces around the board, inconsistent characterization being passed off poorly as nuance) but almost none of them have anything you raise here.
 
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