-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
- Thread starter besada
- Start date
- Status
ShockingAlberto
Member
Honestly, I feel like the moderate stance should be:
- What the fuck is wrong with you
- Diversity in all things, including gaming, is good
- If you could outline what issues you have with gaming journalism maybe we can have a conversation about them but right now you are screaming about nothing
- We want more people involved, not less
- Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you
- What the fuck is wrong with you
- Diversity in all things, including gaming, is good
- If you could outline what issues you have with gaming journalism maybe we can have a conversation about them but right now you are screaming about nothing
- We want more people involved, not less
- Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you
No, the problem is when you start grouping people and make broad generalizations based on your own ideology. NeoGAF is now clearly tilting towards one side of the equation, we have people here who are willing to put TB in the same bracket with loons. And apparently any random picture is now representative of the other side.
This same dynamic applies to people who are seen as regressive of course. Siege mentality grows exponentially when some group witnesses an article with phrases such as...
... suddenly that becomes the defining characteristic of their opposition. You are with us or against us, and no moderates exist on the other side.
You are fooling yourself if you expect anything constructive from this storm.
I have a pretty varied taste so I can be playing Sims or Gone Home one day and Dark Souls or Crusader Kings II the next. That's why I personally really can't see the point of campaigning for judging the lighter, more story-driven experiences as non-games. The kind of criticism I've seen of Gone Home has included the normal 'walking simulator' blah blah stuff and the actually reactionary 'no gays in our games!' or 'that's a girly game for girls' as ways of dismissing the game. Pretty depressing stuff.
Anyway, as long as games industry is driven by money and people buy old school gamey stuff people will be making it. Variety in the market should be celebrated.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
I think most people opposed to GG aren't expecting positive things from this whole shitshow. Why would we? The journalistic integrity issues that are being focused on are laughable at best and just diverting any discussion around real issues (like hey, the GMAs were yesterday).
This is the most succinct and accurate portrayal of the moderate position that I've seen.
And yeah, I'm sorry that I brought up the guy's anti-atheist ramblings from years ago (to those who rightfully called me out on it), but calling TB out as a sane and moderate voice in all of this is just bonkers to me.
The lack of commitment to a side from Totalbiscuit is practically the same silence that large game publishers have adopted here. They're too scared of losing subs/consumers so they dodge the issue and pray it goes away.
There are unfortunately a lot of irresponsible people that are fueling Gamergate. There was the one anonymous Xbox One software developer that did an Escapist interview, people like Brad Wardell or David Jaffe that keep fueling the movement by running the unproven narrative that somehow a really huge number of game developers are on their side and its just fear of backlash by video game journalists thats keeping them from speaking up. That Xbox dev, for example, claimed that like 95% of the people he works with are sympathetic to Gamergate.
I think that a lot of Gamergate supporters really, truly believe because of developers showing them directly or indirectly sympathy that a vast majority of developers are on their side, that developers fear getting censored or somehow getting fucked over by the "secret cabal of games journalists" and that, because of those reasons, they are somehow the good side and people getting actual death threats etc. are just sacrifices for the greater good or whatever. I am not going to say that those people cant think for themselves, but at the same time once you are in an echo chamber (and I am pretty sure most supporters of Gamergate only listen to other supporters and dont try to take in other voices) it becomes really difficult to see the truth. And the truth is that for all the valid points GG has, its giving a face to the harassment of people in the video games industry because a lot of the loud voices are rather radical in their views. It doesnt matter how many TotalBiscuits you have that are sympathetic to your cause when the most prominent journalist on your team is a guy thats all about digging up dirt, insulting people and getting clicks or the only notable celebrity supporting you is a guy that equals gay marriage with incest with some sort of warped logic.
I feel that video game journalism, especially the big sites, didnt really help themselves at the start of last month by refusing to cover, for example, The Fine Young Capitalists IndieGoGo campaign to help women develop games. That was a good project with sound ideals but because no one gave it coverage (and it still got funded with like 75k $) it helped Gamergaters run the narrative that there is somehow censorship going around and that you had to be with the "cool clique" to get your game promoted on such sites. But this is a really small drop in a vast ocean which has turned into two months of video gaming hell. We are at a point where the harassment for having an opinion is probably at an all time high in video gaming and video gaming and especially sites like GAF haven't got the best history in that regard considering that giving a game the wrong rating is the perfect recipe for your personal shitstorm in a teacup. Just look at what Arthur Gies has been through, even on these boards, for giving Bayonetta 2 7.5/10. And yet Gamergate topped that several times.
I do wonder if this will ever stop because if the current push by mainstream media is not enough, what will be?
I think that a lot of Gamergate supporters really, truly believe because of developers showing them directly or indirectly sympathy that a vast majority of developers are on their side, that developers fear getting censored or somehow getting fucked over by the "secret cabal of games journalists" and that, because of those reasons, they are somehow the good side and people getting actual death threats etc. are just sacrifices for the greater good or whatever. I am not going to say that those people cant think for themselves, but at the same time once you are in an echo chamber (and I am pretty sure most supporters of Gamergate only listen to other supporters and dont try to take in other voices) it becomes really difficult to see the truth. And the truth is that for all the valid points GG has, its giving a face to the harassment of people in the video games industry because a lot of the loud voices are rather radical in their views. It doesnt matter how many TotalBiscuits you have that are sympathetic to your cause when the most prominent journalist on your team is a guy thats all about digging up dirt, insulting people and getting clicks or the only notable celebrity supporting you is a guy that equals gay marriage with incest with some sort of warped logic.
I feel that video game journalism, especially the big sites, didnt really help themselves at the start of last month by refusing to cover, for example, The Fine Young Capitalists IndieGoGo campaign to help women develop games. That was a good project with sound ideals but because no one gave it coverage (and it still got funded with like 75k $) it helped Gamergaters run the narrative that there is somehow censorship going around and that you had to be with the "cool clique" to get your game promoted on such sites. But this is a really small drop in a vast ocean which has turned into two months of video gaming hell. We are at a point where the harassment for having an opinion is probably at an all time high in video gaming and video gaming and especially sites like GAF haven't got the best history in that regard considering that giving a game the wrong rating is the perfect recipe for your personal shitstorm in a teacup. Just look at what Arthur Gies has been through, even on these boards, for giving Bayonetta 2 7.5/10. And yet Gamergate topped that several times.
I do wonder if this will ever stop because if the current push by mainstream media is not enough, what will be?
BobbyRobby
Member
I think this is a function of the internet which encourages both radicalism and partisanship. People aren't forced to interact with people in real life, where disagreements are had and hashed out. They go online, find like-minded people and confirm all their biases.
It is not in the best interest of anyone with power to promote individuality. Politicians want voting blocks they can depend on. Corporations want homogenous customers they can sell the same stuff to perpetually.
It's tricky. I mean, you're putting the action of 'grouping' there on the person looking at GamerGate. But isn't the GG individual, whatever varied specific ideologies they have, grouping themself when they communicate in support/favour of, or specifically including, the hashtag? Like, you can talk about individuals inside the hashtag, but you can't talk about the hashtag as individuals. The 'bad apples' analogy, if you're discussing GamerGate, you kind of have to talk about the barrel. All those apples are in the barrel through choice. You aren't doing a good apple a disservice by doing so, you're acknowledging the barrel they themself chose.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I feel like people are painting Totalbiscuit as neutral erroneously here.
https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/522292390061948928
At best he uses this whole thing to elevate and promote himself. At worst, he is leaning pretty far to one side.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
SliceSabre
Banned
I think once you've taken a side you really can't fairly judge who a moderate is.
I mean would you believe what a liberal or a conservative tell you what a moderate really is? No you wouldn't because you know their view comes from a extremely bias place. Their views of what a moderate is are wildly different from one another.
I only read some of his earlier comments before but somehow the self-promotion doesn't surprise me. I noticed another Youtube celebrity I'll not name here used the early Quinnspiracy 'reveals' as a way of advertising themselves as more reliable than traditional journos. Of course, cue Shadow of Mordor.
I could see an argument holding water that TB is actually being sort okay with how he deals with this. He obviously shares sentiments with GG, but he is avoiding making those comments under the hashtag. Which is to say, he's discussing the parts of GG that he believes in, but wants to do so outside of the banner. Which... is a step forward, right?
The immediate rebuttal that I come up with to myself there is something like: well, that would be a lot more palatable if he would clearly articulate why he wants to steer clear of the hashtag.
The immediate rebuttal that I come up with to myself there is something like: well, that would be a lot more palatable if he would clearly articulate why he wants to steer clear of the hashtag.
Lalalandia
Member
https://storify.com/thelindsayellis/starscream-lord-of-gamergate
Alas Lindsay Ellis' Starscream failed in his efforts to become 'Lord of GG' but at least I got to read some dude attempt to paint the Klan's origins as a 'social club'
Alas Lindsay Ellis' Starscream failed in his efforts to become 'Lord of GG' but at least I got to read some dude attempt to paint the Klan's origins as a 'social club'
What would be your plan to disallow that? Personally I think it's impossible without breaking the internet.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
Considering that I just now looked at his twitter and saw this right away:
I'd say he certainly leans very far to one side (while of course never missing a chance to place himself on a pedestal, as is the totalbiscuit way). The attempts to cling to the fabled moderate middle-ground position are just a way to shut down debate.
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Ok seriously does no one know what nepotism means?
OnettHansen
Member
If there's one thing I miss about this entire shitstorm, it's Phil Fish spewing glorious foul mouthed tirades about GG and youtubers who support them.
ShockingAlberto
Member
It means when you associate with someone and then do things for them????
Neoriceisgood
Member
Isn't nepotism that creepy subgenre of manga where people have the hots for their sisters?
Because I always assumed channers were in favor of that before this.
Because I always assumed channers were in favor of that before this.
Lalalandia
Member
He really does back GG if he's going to continue to push that false narrative. Time is one dimensional TB and the Baldwin tweet predates any of the 'Gamers are over' articles by at least a day. Unless of course he's tipping his hand and saying that he thought the Quinnspiracy horseshit was a legitimate 'ethics' issue also.Considering that I just now looked at his twitter and saw this right away:
I'd say he certainly leans very far to one side (while of course never missing a chance to place himself on a pedestal, as is the totalbiscuit way). The attempts to cling to the fabled moderate middle-ground position are just a way to shut down debate.
HarryHengst
Member
Dunno, but im starting to think that breaking the internet will soon be what will happen thanks to shit like whats happening now. Its just a matter of time before more governments take things like #GG as an excuse.
Nah, it's when you are related to someone (same family) and favor them because of that.
Also, those Totalbiscuit tweets are pretty depressing.
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Careful, if you anger them they'll nepotism all over you.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Reading his rant on it, he believes it started as a question of ethics because Quinn possibly had a Youtube video removed.
It uses a lot of "If this is true, then clearly she is a monster, maybe!" kind of statements and Neil Cavuto-style question marks littered throughout. It's similar to going "I'm not saying Obama brought ebola here, but if he did, he would be a super villain that we should impeach, right? We'd all impeach a super villain that brought ebola here."
I feel like Phil Fish is the inside voice of every rational person in this "debate".
You can write all the thoughtful and insightful anti-gamergate points you want, but lets be real, all we're really thinking is "fuck these guys. fuck them."
The nepotism thing is kind of funny, but there's some basis for it.
Taking from the Collins Dictionary, there are differences in the definition based on whether you select british or american english -
US .. favoritism shown to relatives, esp. in appointment to desirable positions
UK .. favouritism shown to relatives or close friends by those with power or influence
It feels somewhat minor. There are bigger problems in play than whether a chip refers to a fried potato stick or a baked potato slice.
OnettHansen
Member
Phil Fish is the monster that all of us have in our minds, and that's why I sometimes go through periods of worshipping him like a deity.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Phil Fish is the cartoon devil on everyone's shoulder.
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Ah, that makes more sense then.
I haven't followed this too much but can someone explain to me how this is still a thing? I thought this has been widely exposed by the media as a pure men's right anti-feminism movement rather than anything gaming related. Yet people are still attempting to keep it going? I don't get it. Unless there are a lot more extreme anti-feminism/men's rights types out there than I thought.
Denial. I've talked to some people about this on twitter and it's about as useful as trying to talk to a creationist or a 9/11 truther or Obama birth certificate nut. They have an idea fixed in their head and they'll never change it, and since it's based on conspiracy thought, there's no way to discredit it. Any evidence to contrary is 'evil propaganda' by people who want to hurt you or your way of life.
Neoriceisgood
Member
You have to keep in mind that "MRA" is only a small subset of the general "ANTI-SJW"-movement.
#GG literally just puts a label on a group that's been around for ages.
Lalalandia
Member
Wow he really can't admit that condemning ZQ for allegedly DMCAing a video that spun wild tales about her personal life was stupid? If she did it that was wrong but given the hell she is being dragged through it's akin to condemning her for screaming 'Fuck off' at a stalker. His righteous asshole atheist phase has never really ended it seems.
Is there an argument about the "corruption" in video games press that isn't just "I might spend money on something that isn't good?"
I keep reading that "it's about ethics" but they never actually go into detail about what that means and the impact it has. I'm curious what these people, even those attempting to position themselves as moderate, are actually clamouring for.
I keep reading that "it's about ethics" but they never actually go into detail about what that means and the impact it has. I'm curious what these people, even those attempting to position themselves as moderate, are actually clamouring for.
Phil Fish is wonderful.
I don't really care if he's annoying, or loud. Honestly almost very instance of him being awful are people who don't like him blowing things out of proportion.
If I remember correctly, his big famous Phil Fish is racist moment was him having a conversation with a prominent Japanese dev who had just given a talk about all the problems Japanese games face going forward and at some point saying "I think most Japanese games are terrible (or shit or crap or whatever)" Which okay, acerbic? Yeah. Racist? No, shut up, that word has a meaning.
And then the sheer poetry of "I wish videogames was a building so I could burn it down with all of you inside it."
He's a passionate dev with no pr training and I don't think he should be shit on for it.
I don't really care if he's annoying, or loud. Honestly almost very instance of him being awful are people who don't like him blowing things out of proportion.
If I remember correctly, his big famous Phil Fish is racist moment was him having a conversation with a prominent Japanese dev who had just given a talk about all the problems Japanese games face going forward and at some point saying "I think most Japanese games are terrible (or shit or crap or whatever)" Which okay, acerbic? Yeah. Racist? No, shut up, that word has a meaning.
And then the sheer poetry of "I wish videogames was a building so I could burn it down with all of you inside it."
He's a passionate dev with no pr training and I don't think he should be shit on for it.
Yeah, there's no real definition for what GG calls "corrupt," but one reoccurring theme is that of "Social Justice Warriors" and "agenda pushing." From what I've read, many people in GG feel like feminism and similar topics should not be discussed (or if they are they should relegated to op-eds). I've also seen claims that those writing about social issues are just trying to co-opt gaming to, once again, push an agenda. In other words, they feel anyone writing about social issues is not a real journalist/gamer.
It's all very silly.
I miss Phil, it's such a shame that he was harassed out of the industry.
OnettHansen
Member
I could not second this any harder.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Here it is. #Gamergate being mentioned in an article in the front page of the NY Times. Right below the picture of the Kansas City Royals going to the World Series. Check it out for yourself.
http://www.nytimes.com/images/2014/10/16/nytfrontpage/scan.pdf
If this has any repercussions, good or bad, remains to be seen.
EDIT: Have you ever experienced sexism in the gaming industry? Well NYTimes wants to know!
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/15/technology/women-in-video-game-industry.html?ref=technology&_r=1
http://www.nytimes.com/images/2014/10/16/nytfrontpage/scan.pdf
If this has any repercussions, good or bad, remains to be seen.
EDIT: Have you ever experienced sexism in the gaming industry? Well NYTimes wants to know!
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/15/technology/women-in-video-game-industry.html?ref=technology&_r=1
plagiarize
Banned
Watch the fires spread as more and more sites negatively report on GamerGate and its horrible origins. Watch the fires spread as the GG advocates argue strongly about what GamerGate *isn't* about, while never properly explaining what it is about, or what change they want to see.
Watch the snake devour itself.
And remember, while the GamerGate movement decries the death threats... they won't decry the misogyny.
Watch the snake devour itself.
And remember, while the GamerGate movement decries the death threats... they won't decry the misogyny.
I respectfully disagree.
The proponents and opponents of this whole controversy have varied views and conflicts about this whole ordeal. The bottom line is that the proponents believe that there's a lack of journalistic integrity within the gaming industry, while the opponents of #GG are displaying a narrative that presents misogyny, fear and terror within the industry towards women. Both sides have their fair share of substantial inaccuracies, but both bring up very valid points about the problems which is affecting the industry as a whole today. None of these problems are actually new, as we've seen the integrity issue being brought up with the Doritogate controversy, as well as the many horrible stories of sexism that is prevalent in the gaming industry. The reason why this controversy has even bubbled up to the levels that it has is because it rings so true with the flaws and the crude attitudes that we have in the gaming industry.
It's absolutely true that people on both sides have displayed their fair share of ignorance and bigotry. However, placing everyone on the same boat because they happen to have similar critical viewpoints about the problems that is prevalent in the game industry, is very ignorant, and is totally missing the point. Many people that do think that there's some substance to these underlying questions do not think that women in the gaming industry should be oppressed. The two are not antithetical to one another. To even imply that is such a gross statement to make. Most gamers and readers want transparency, as that is the fundamental core principles in all of Journalism. It is that delicate and vital factor that reflects the integrity that the journalist possesses. If that is undermined, then it's going to be called out upon.
The Journalistic side of the gaming industry should be critically analyzed, just like any sort of news media would. It doesn't make you a misogynist or a bad person. Whether some, all or even none of the allegations from the genesis have substance or not is something that should be investigated and critically examined. The actions in question aren't really of importance, it's the affects of those actions. What does it mean to have some journalists indulge in romantic relationships with people they're supposedly covering? What does it say when journalists attack the very readership that makes their job possible in the first place, cause they're demanding answers?
When you are presenting an Us VS Them argument, you're laying no leeway for the moderate thinkers who actually sees and recognizes both sets of valid points and problems.The people who are the loudest from both sides seem to think that they're dictating the narrative, by saying that if you don't agree with us, you're part of the problem. Well, I'm sorry to say, but that's just not the case. There's a middle ground, where one can criticize and recognize arguments from both sides. That doesn't make you anything but a critical thinker.
I suggest every single gaming journalist and reader alike read this and take it to heart.
Right at the end there they distance the crazies from GamerGate. Pretty sure that won't go down well here and other places.
"The instigators of the campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #Gamergate"
ShockingAlberto
Member
There appears to be a belief that the boon in indie coverage in recent years has been a direct result of indie developers who are friends with journalists nudging their pals to cover their games. Rather than the importance of indie developers being the cause of the coverage, the coverage is what caused the rise of indie developers.
This belief is bunk for a number of reasons, most important being that you kind of can't run in these circles without being friends with people. You can certainly not cover their games if you have a personal relationship, which seems to be the case 99% of the time, but to say no one should have any social relationships across the aisle at all is madness.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Right at the end there they distance the crazies from GamerGate. Pretty sure that won't go down well here and other places.
I recommend you reading the whole article online. It doesn't bode well for GG at all in general.
For those who want to read the NYT article, it was posted earlier in the thread: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/t...-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html?_r=1&referrer=
- Status