Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
The journalism thing rings hollow as most of the targets aren't journalists
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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
I'm sure your sentiment is sincere but it's hard to believe GG isn't fundamentally skewed against women when its targets are disproptionately female and most of the debate on Twitter, Reddit or wherever else is focused on SJWs and feminism (which have fuck all to do with ethics) and not the real ethical issues that came to the surface during Doritosgate.
And if the Quinnspiracy is actually important to ethics, why the obsession with her and almost silence on Nathan Grayson, the journalist falsely accused of being compromised? The actual journalist in this question of journalistic ethics?
The money at the heart of actual corruption/conflicts of interests will continue to be made and GG has made no dent on that.
Oh I've read that then. I'm more commenting on the look of it on the first page though.
plagiarize
Banned
"Don't blame me for the elected president. I didn't vote!"
One side is a misogynistic group started by misogynists which claims to be about journalistic integrity but instead attacks journalists which criticize games for being misogynistic.
You can choose to support the group started by misogynists and choose not to have a position on misogyny... but you aren't immune from being strongly criticized for it. GamerGate are the people angry at journalists for expressing their honest opinions. Be it in the 'Gamers must die' article, or the Bayonetta review... or hell... everything Anita has ever done.
Don't claim there are 'two sides'. That stuff was okay maybe a few weeks back when a lot of people hadn't had a chance to find out what GamerGate is really all about, but not any more. If someone is still standing by it now, as it continues to target female journalists women, and it continues to target people who talk out against misogyny, that person has run out of plausible deniability.
I'm going to pull just one line from your post if I may,
The above said, I don't agree with the vaguely all-encompassing claim that Alexander attacked her readership. My take on it was that she commented on specific negative pockets of the community, highlighting said pockets' ever-diminishing share of said community. And that she did so in an opinion piece on a website whose primary readership consists of professional adults on the development side of the industry.
I'd say this shows true journalistic integrity, demonstrating a willingness to voice an opinion that, arguably, isn't in that journalist's best (financial/employment) interests.
The above said, I don't agree with the vaguely all-encompassing claim that Alexander attacked her readership. My take on it was that she commented on specific negative pockets of the community, highlighting said pockets' ever-diminishing share of said community. And that she did so in an opinion piece on a website whose primary readership consists of professional adults on the development side of the industry.
Not as hollow as pretending to be a moderate, seriously, turning a conversation about abuse into an excessive of pedantry and constant reminders that not all gamergate are evil is vile too, both stances of the same movement ultimately fulfill the same goal= Drown the dissenting voices under a pile of shit.
Lalalandia
Member
Hey it's Quinnspiracy guff. Again. The allegations were established to be bullshit before GG even got rolling yet here you are 'just asking questions'. Oh and I'm well aware of journalistic standards which is why I understand that gossip and breakup stories are inappropriate content for gaming websites.
There is no moderation in standing with the people pushing women out of gaming.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Fundamentally subjective things have to be objective or it's not #ethical#journalism, maaaaan
OnettHansen
Member
Since Phil Fish exited this shitstorm months ago, the only outspoken and controversial figure left to speak the cold hard facts in the bluntest way possible is Jim Sterling.
Palette Swap
Member
I really like the guy but it wasn't his greatest moment. Not because that answer was racist, it wasn't, but because in that particular context he behaved like a bully: that japanese developer wasn't prominent or anything and Phil was on stage surrounded by peers and made fun of this one single guy from the audience in his answer. It wasn't a crime against humanity but it wasn't a nice thing to do and IIRC, he acknowledges as much in Indie Game : The Movie.
Half the outrage was over the content of his answer though, which is irrelevant because opinions.
I'd love a mini-E3, right now, just so that Giant Bomb can have its 4 or 5 nightly alcohol-loosened panel chats with industry figures. I do want someone eloquent and informed to just go full-rant live on air calling out all the bullshit.
Or, shit, can you imagine if the GFW crew puzzled out a reunion-podcast just to sit around and talk about gaming in 2014, warts and all? To quote my two-year old daughter's newest favourite word, delicioush!!
Or, shit, can you imagine if the GFW crew puzzled out a reunion-podcast just to sit around and talk about gaming in 2014, warts and all? To quote my two-year old daughter's newest favourite word, delicioush!!
The problems of game journalism have been well publicized for years, decades, now. The core problems are pretty well known, too, and I'd love to know why GG doesn't really address them instead of going for the sex lives of practically unknown indie devs and cultural critics.
If we do a list of biggest problems now, it would look something like this. This is all well known.
1. Larger game companies gate themselves behing pr managers and pr people to only give out very controlled information about anything at all. Info is delivered via very large sites and mags who have vested interest to keep good relations to these publishers. Note: I'm not alluding people at these sites are somehow corrupt. I'm saying they'll be more vulnerable to any pressure because of their positions.
2. Larger game companies try to blackmail the most visible publications via exclusive info access deals and the threat of pulling advertisement (See Kane & Lynch). Online news sites are even more vulnerable to this than print mags since print has subscriber money flow.
3. The rise of Youtube celebrities has given an opportunity to sell games journalism that claims it's not games journalism because of reasons. (See various tubers justifying why it's okay for them to take Mordor money and hype the game for consumers). Again, it's a large publisher appearing as the instigator.
If Gamergate is really worried about the ethics, why does it keep focusing on Quinn and Sarkeesian, small-time journalists, female journalists, 'SJW people' and indie game coverage in general, when all the really, really, really murky stuff is controlled the big players of the industry? Instead of going for the roots of the well-oiled hype machine we see bullying campaigns targeted at lone writers. It's totally nonsensical.
Huh!
I'm watching a video of this moment now and I must have been thinking about something else. Maybe it came up later and he's talked about it more elsewhere.
This reminds me that I've not seen Indie Game TM so I should look into that.
The people still supporting Gamergate remind me of people flying Confederate flags. Those people constantly are on the defensive about slavery,and well they should be. That's what the flag represents now. GG is poisoned by misogyny and threats of violence. If you use that tag or identify yourself with it, you're going to be associated with the negatives -- period. There is no defense that will salvage your position -- much like the swastika was co-opted, Gamergate has been lost. Better to abandon it and find a new rally cry that focuses purely on ethics than continue to sully your reputations.
Greater threat than Ebola, IMO.
The confederate flag example is even better than the Swastika one because at some point the Swastika was just a common symbol dating back as long as civilisation in the Indus Valley.
But the confederate flag has always (Arguably, I don't really want to start this argument with Americans though, Aus has shitty racism problems aplenty thanks) been associated with a fight to maintain slavery. It's been coopted as a kind of southern pride thing but it started off and will always be associated with its terrible roots.
Gamergate wasn't coopted by its awful elements. The naive and misguided attempted to coopt it because of what they thought it was about (Northern Agress- I mean Journalistic Ethics) and vehemently deny any association with its obvious terrible origins, as well as those that fly the same tagflag and perpetuate the terrible elements.
If Gamergate had actually managed to totally weed out its shitty origins and done some good for journalism in this industry, this debate would be way less serious. The fact is though, that they haven't.
Candescence
Member
At this point, I'm inclined to say that #Gamergate is beyond salvaging. It started from nonsense claims, it's been more or less turned into the gamer community's own version of the Tea Party, and even if it was actually supposed to be about gaming journalism ethics, its going after the small fish and ignoring the sharks.
At this point, there needs to be a new flag that won't be immediately tainted by nonsense and bigotry and actually focus on the actual problems gaming journalism has.
At this point, there needs to be a new flag that won't be immediately tainted by nonsense and bigotry and actually focus on the actual problems gaming journalism has.
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Edit: For the top graph, I changed the search term from "feminism" to "feminist" as it's the term more commonly used in conjunction with the hashtag. Original can be seen here.
plagiarize
Banned
Yeah. I stayed out of this thread for weeks because I knew there was a duality happening, and I knew there was a chance that it could have transformed into something beyond it's origins. I didn't want to touch a hot topic where I might have mistaken someone genuinely upset about real problems in game writing with a misogynist in disguise.
But now, weeks later, it's clearly apparent that GamerGate is still being led by misogynists. If people are still waving that flag at this point, either they're a misogynist, or they've been waving the flag for so long, that it's passed the point of absurdity for them still to be waving it, and so they've flipped into total denial about what's going on all around them AND CONTINUE TO WAVE IT BECAUSE THEY THINK DOING ANYTHING ELSE WOULD MAKE THEM LOOK TOTALLY STUPID.
It's hard to feel sorry for someone like that.
These are some of the things I've been annoyed about for a long time. I didn't even see that Deadspin story. Do you have a link?
The replies to that tweet... Let's just ignore the issue at hand and focus on what Kotaku didn't write about
I just started reading about this controversy yesterday, and have been listening and reading about both sides.
So, if I'm understanding your narrative, you're saying that a misogynistic group of people started a movement with a deceptive agenda. I have no idea what the intentions of the people who started this whole controversy actually have, and I certainly don't agree with any kind of misogynistic views whatsoever. What I'm saying is this; if misogyny and sexism is prevalent in the gaming industry, why couldn't certain other areas be lacking as well? It's well documented that the gaming media hasn't the best of track records, and has been getting a lot of flack these past years, and as a gaming enthusiast, these questions interest me.
I'm not defending GG, and I don't consider myself a proponent of it. Like I said, I recognize arguments from both sides, but I also feel like there's so much junk being thrown from both side, which overshadows a mature discourse from being had, I think. Instead, we have people saying that you should either agree with everything either of the two camp says, and I think that is missing the point. Sure, some do, but likewise, many do not. As for the Quinnspiracy, there's a lot of stuff that could have been handled way better than what we eventually got.
Your absolutely correct. Gamasutra is a website geared towards professionals. The bigger picture I'm trying to project is that many sites that do have a readership that consists of people that identify themselves as gamers, decided to perpetuate the stereotypical idea of what a gamer is thanks to the actions of some people who are definitely in the wrong, and that I think isn't really doing the world any favors.
I absoultely agree. As I said, the personal relationships of people is non of my concerns, and why some proponents of #GG decides to harass people is beyond me. I'm more interested about the implications of these alleged actions to the industry as a whole. As you lifted up, the interrelationship between the media and the industry is a real problem. Conflict of interest, pressure from publishers, even flat out blackmail and corruption is part of our industry. Even if #GG is despicable in how it came to be and how some behave to this day, I do think that it lifts up some important questions about the problems we have with our industry. Ignoring that fact, I think, is irresponsible.
So, if I'm understanding your narrative, you're saying that a misogynistic group of people started a movement with a deceptive agenda. I have no idea what the intentions of the people who started this whole controversy actually have, and I certainly don't agree with any kind of misogynistic views whatsoever. What I'm saying is this; if misogyny and sexism is prevalent in the gaming industry, why couldn't certain other areas be lacking as well? It's well documented that the gaming media hasn't the best of track records, and has been getting a lot of flack these past years, and as a gaming enthusiast, these questions interest me.
I'm not defending GG, and I don't consider myself a proponent of it. Like I said, I recognize arguments from both sides, but I also feel like there's so much junk being thrown from both side, which overshadows a mature discourse from being had, I think. Instead, we have people saying that you should either agree with everything either of the two camp says, and I think that is missing the point. Sure, some do, but likewise, many do not. As for the Quinnspiracy, there's a lot of stuff that could have been handled way better than what we eventually got.
Your absolutely correct. Gamasutra is a website geared towards professionals. The bigger picture I'm trying to project is that many sites that do have a readership that consists of people that identify themselves as gamers, decided to perpetuate the stereotypical idea of what a gamer is thanks to the actions of some people who are definitely in the wrong, and that I think isn't really doing the world any favors.
I absoultely agree. As I said, the personal relationships of people is non of my concerns, and why some proponents of #GG decides to harass people is beyond me. I'm more interested about the implications of these alleged actions to the industry as a whole. As you lifted up, the interrelationship between the media and the industry is a real problem. Conflict of interest, pressure from publishers, even flat out blackmail and corruption is part of our industry. Even if #GG is despicable in how it came to be and how some behave to this day, I do think that it lifts up some important questions about the problems we have with our industry. Ignoring that fact, I think, is irresponsible.
Jim Sterling
Member
I'll be fine. It encouraged me to sever many of my ties to Twitter and just use it as a platform rather than an engagement medium, which has reduced stress levels tremendously. Plus I told Greg at The Escapist *exactly* how I feel about the piece the site ran and my views were respected. I'm still angry about being hung out to dry, but I am yet to feel unsafe in my own home and I don't get to feel like my gender precludes me from sharing an honest opinion without sparking an insane movement or two.
Any harassment I receive just continues to demonstrate to me that GG will never be able to promote ethical conduct and does not actually want consumer advocacy, it wants subservience.
CBS This Morning is currently running a story on this right now. I work at a radio station so our televisions are muted, but it looks to be centered around the Utah threats. The whole segment should be available online sometime today.
EDIT: The video segment isn't online that I see, but here's the article.
EDIT: The video segment isn't online that I see, but here's the article.
Zomba13
Member
Gamergate does nothing to raise actual concerns about corruption or sexism in the industry or anything. It was born of hate and is just used to try and shield misogyny behind the guise of caring about corruption in the industry.
If people really do care about corruption in the press or whatever they need to start a new campaign and not continue parading around under the burning banner of gamergate. If you have serious concerns and rally behind gamergate no one will take you seriously because of how it was started and how it's continuing. It'd be like a KKK member claiming to be concerned about the rights and treatment of non-whites. They might genuinely have those concerns but if they rally behind #KKK no one will listen and would likely lump them in with the rest of the racist white supremacists.
Why use that picture for the article? Why not a picture of Anita from one of her videos?
If people really do care about corruption in the press or whatever they need to start a new campaign and not continue parading around under the burning banner of gamergate. If you have serious concerns and rally behind gamergate no one will take you seriously because of how it was started and how it's continuing. It'd be like a KKK member claiming to be concerned about the rights and treatment of non-whites. They might genuinely have those concerns but if they rally behind #KKK no one will listen and would likely lump them in with the rest of the racist white supremacists.
Why use that picture for the article? Why not a picture of Anita from one of her videos?
It's arguably of greater benefit to the reader, no? What actual purpose does a photo of Anita serve? At least this piece's leading screenshot gives some further context for understanding the kind of thing Anita's talks would be addressing and, by extension, the kind of thing that the perpetrators didn't want Anita talking about.
The article used that picture but the video segment showed clips from her series of videos along with herself.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Well said
plagiarize
Banned
Now you do. It should be apparent from their targets, but we know who started the hashtag and why. It's continued focus on picking female targets and getting upset about who female indie developers have been sleeping with, or targeting anyone who complains about misogyny in video games tell you all you should need to know.
Sure. Absolutely. But don't wave the flag the misogynists made. Two reasons you shouldn't do that.
1. You'd be supporting misogynists on their misogynistic cause.
2. Your message would get incredibly muddled and you'd constantly have to defend yourself as not being a women hater.
Dictator93
Member
As soon as GG was started associating with anarcho-capitalists, rightwing nutsos, crypto-fascists, and blatent bigots it destroyed any chance it had of having legitimate concerns.
It carries the baggage of its membership. It needs to go away, and those who actually care about ethics in game journalism AND fair treatment of all (regardless of origin or self identification) need to start over.
It carries the baggage of its membership. It needs to go away, and those who actually care about ethics in game journalism AND fair treatment of all (regardless of origin or self identification) need to start over.
plagiarize
Banned
One of the things that I find insulting is that they know we know their real agenda, yet they seem to think they can convince us we are wrong if they continue to deny it while simultaneously continuing to transparently target female journalists and developers and people who speak out about misogyny in games.
The heat you and Bob are getting is just fucked up. But it says a lot of your character that you'll keep doing your things, which is what they're trying to stop.
Just wish The Escapist wasn't enabling this shit.
Jim Sterling
Member
It's like that "instructional" image posted earlier demonstrates - corner a person, isolate them, make them feel alone, try and shame them and make them feel like they're doing something wrong.
For two months I've been the focus of a lot of those tactics as people attempted to recruit me. It gets to the point of repetition to where you almost start to believe it, too. But the longer you rebuke it, the nastier they get. The mask never stays on for long.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
So I was checking out some of the links in the 'support list' at work yesterday and noticed they didn't work. I assumed maybe they were down but then I checked them from home and they worked just fine. Curious I checked again today at work, and again they weren't loading. I work the IT department for a school district so I have the access to investigate why this is. Turns out several of those sites had been blacklisted by a firewall subscription that specifically targets sites promoting hate and bigotry.
Palette Swap
Member
That might be me misremembering, but seeing the scene, I remember I was definitely uneasy for that japanese developer.
That movie is well worth a watch!
Here's your problem. After almost two months Gamergate has shored up a lot of the cracks in their "Journalistic Ethics" facade. I imagine a lot of the stuff you're reading from our "Side" looks kind of crazy sometimes, and maybe hyperbolic, but the reality of it is that a lot of us have been watching this from the very start and are extremely frustrated that it's still going on.
What you seem to be doing though is equating Gamergate with all concerns about integrity in games writing.
The reality is that Gamergate as a whole never really believed in exploring journalistic corruption, it used that agreeable banner to draw more, frankly gullible people to the mob they created.
Nobody is saying Games journalism doesn't have problems. The thing is though, that Gamergate specifically has been targeting people with very little to do with any breaches of ethics and in fact are often the ones shining the uncomfortable light on the games writing business.
This is a pretty good summation someone linked a few pages back, if you've not seen it.
Here is Leigh Alexander, perhaps Gamergate's most hated nemesis listing some actual problems with Games Journalism that Gamergate is completely ignoring in favour of going after extremely poor indie devs and freelance writers.
And no, to the point you made later on in your last post here?
It demonstrably didn't happen. Here's a quick breakdown of Leigh Alexander's intro that everyone finds so inflammatory, and here's a good rundown of her whole article by someone who wasn't already bought into the idea of a woman attacking Gamers. Don't let someone else's uninformed and downright inaccurate reading of the articles define yours. Those are just examples of people breaking down Leigh's because it's the one everyone holds up as an example and seems to have the most trouble reading.
I have personally seen many people say "Now I haven't read any of these articles, but people have told me I should hate them and that they say X,Y and Z." That kind of misinformation spread is characteristic of Gamergate. Browse the tag on twitter and I bet every single Pgdn press in the results will get you at least one person spreading a long disproven lie or libellous and unsubstantiated rumour.
You say you've been reading a lot of Gamergate arguments, and that's good, a lot of us have too, but we also probably have some perspective that you don't have that is going to better inform how we treat those arguments.
Hope this helped! Nobody is against the idea of improving Journalistic integrity (except maybe Gamergate) and nobody is rejecting out of hand reasoned investigation into possible breaches of ethics (except, again, Gamergate)
Too bad the most vocal parts of GG don't give a damn about any of these things, and are actually drawing attention away from them.
I can believe that reasoning.
The increased coverage of independent developers is also a result of daily websites, really. A magazine in the 90s only need content to fill their pages once a month, which could easily be done with just big games.
A website needs to have 5 or 6 stories every day and wouldn't be able to survive on just coverage about AAA games so they need to talk about smaller projects.
So really AAA coverage hasn't been affected but total coverage has been. In that sense, people on the side of "ethical GG" are essentially complaining that people are talking too much about games.
Those who do are clearly in the wrong. The fallacy you're making is that you're painting everyone with a single brush. It just doesn't work that way. This is just my humble opinion, but I don't think every single proponent of #GG has an unified agenda to be misogynistic towards women. That's propaganda. I believe that some actually do want to highlight the ethical side of the debate, which in my mind is the actual problem.
If you're associating me with misogynists, then I'm afraid to say that you've missed my point.
dantevsninjas
Member
I can't believe this is still a thing, it really should have died by now. Calling for ethics in video game journalism is like calling for an end to the poaching of unicorns; you're trying to fix a thing that doesn't exist! (I'm being slightly hyperbolic: there is a small amount of actual journalism around video games, but most of it is just opinion & enthusiast fluff).
What gamergate really is is the right wing having finally found a way to set its hooks into a new demographic: the Ron Paul internet libertarian. These people are libertarians the way that 14 year old punk kids are anarchists: they have an abstract concept in their head of freedom from an oppressive force that is mostly fictitious, and have co-opted an ideology as a way to fight back without really understanding what it means. It's the same cycle all over again, just replace parents and teachers with shadowy government figures that are somehow both inept and villainous masterminds at the same time.
PRO-TIP: If your cause forces you to align yourself with lunatics like Adam Baldwin, and outlets like Breitbart, it's not a cause worth fighting for.
What gamergate really is is the right wing having finally found a way to set its hooks into a new demographic: the Ron Paul internet libertarian. These people are libertarians the way that 14 year old punk kids are anarchists: they have an abstract concept in their head of freedom from an oppressive force that is mostly fictitious, and have co-opted an ideology as a way to fight back without really understanding what it means. It's the same cycle all over again, just replace parents and teachers with shadowy government figures that are somehow both inept and villainous masterminds at the same time.
PRO-TIP: If your cause forces you to align yourself with lunatics like Adam Baldwin, and outlets like Breitbart, it's not a cause worth fighting for.
Zomba13
Member
He's saying that you are saying not all GG people are misogynists and they may not be, but they are rallying under the same flag so many other misogynists are. If they truly cared about important issues and equality in gaming why not rally under something that doesn't support misogyny or isn't instantly associated with it? A human rights activist wouldn't rally under the KKK or nazism banner would they? No, because of the obvious connotations that would bring. So why rally under the banner started by a bunch of misogynists as a way to say nasty things to and about women?
If you're still using the hashtag, you are associating yourself with misogynists. That simple.
It's ok to want to talk about ethics. But GamerGate is not the platform for meaningful discussion you're looking for.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I don't know if you are, but if you've lumped yourself in with the GG group then you're associated with a misogynistic group. I believe this is what he was saying.
plagiarize
Banned
I'm not associating you with misogynists. I'm saying that if you want to highlight the ethical side of the debate, that you only hurt yourself by associating with misogynists.
Anyone who associates themselves with GamerGate are associating themselves with misogynists. *Literally*.
I'm not committing a fallacy. I stayed away from this thread for weeks despite being very active in other threads that were overtly about misogyny, because I wanted to see if indeed GamerGate moved away from it's misogynistic origins. It clearly hasn't. It's still being driven by a core group of misogynists, and at this point, weeks in, the plausible deniability of someone waving the GamerGate flag and claiming that they are only looking for betting ethics in journalism has about disappeared completely.
If I ask someone if they're for or against misogyny, refusing to take a position *is* taking a position. It's a position that says 'I don't mind if misogyny occurs'. I get called unfair for pointing that out, but it's logically sound.
You think journalistic ethics is a bigger problem. I have no problem there. Everyone has their pet cause that they champion. But I wouldn't join a campaign pushing for better representation of women in gaming started and run by homophobes.
Because to do so I would be associating myself with and literally helping homophobes.
I would expect to be judged for doing that, and I would expect to be treated accordingly if my response to that criticism was 'Can't we just talk about representation of women in gaming?'.
Calling Gamergate a Misogynist movement is not immediately saying everyone using the tag or even participating actively is a misogynist.
Some people are just too stubborn to see that the movement has not brought a single significant ethics breach to light or enacted any positive change beyond the Escapist slightly revamping their ethics policy, which has seemed to work wonders for that site (/s)
And on the other side of things, they're also too stubborn to see that maybe the shocking and stark increase in harassment and extremely vicious and targetted death threats on feminists and women in gaming that has taken place exactly concurrently with the movement might just be related.
Edit: And dudes, he's already said he doesn't support Gamergate. We don't need to hammer that home. He's just seeing what he thinks is unjust generalisation and it's pretty easy to explain that rather than assigning that most grave of insults: Gamergator...
Some people are just too stubborn to see that the movement has not brought a single significant ethics breach to light or enacted any positive change beyond the Escapist slightly revamping their ethics policy, which has seemed to work wonders for that site (/s)
And on the other side of things, they're also too stubborn to see that maybe the shocking and stark increase in harassment and extremely vicious and targetted death threats on feminists and women in gaming that has taken place exactly concurrently with the movement might just be related.
Edit: And dudes, he's already said he doesn't support Gamergate. We don't need to hammer that home. He's just seeing what he thinks is unjust generalisation and it's pretty easy to explain that rather than assigning that most grave of insults: Gamergator...
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