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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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Dennis

Banned
Garnett Lee had this to say in the Weekend Confirmed mega-thread:

Garnett Lee said:
I think I've done this a long time now; people have plenty of my record to see. It's no "cop-out" to say I'm not a journalist. It's a simple statement of fact. I don't investigate leads and report on events. I play games and then I give my opinion of them drawing from the experience of having similarly assessed hundreds of games.

I was going to write more but forget it. It only drags out the time spent by those of you who've chosen to hate everyone in the games media. Are there some in the media who get swayed more than others? Probably, I don't know. I'm not a psychologist. Do I get swayed? I try very hard to be true to myself, it's the one thing I have that everything else is derived from. That said, I imagine it's all but impossible not to have some psychologic effect from that exposure. At the same time, my survival motivation of needing to be honest and transparent is damn powerful motivation too.

I think that holds true for a lot of the members of the games media and when it doesn't, it's easy to tell.

If at least people working in games media who make their living having opinions but do no such thing as journalism would now stop refering to themselves as games 'journalists' at least something good will have come of all this.

There should be no doubt left in anyones mind that what goes on a the sites we are all familiar with is not journalism. They had the choice here of either a willingness to embrace certain ethical standards or give up the pretense of journalism. They have mostly chosen the latter.
 

Shinta

Banned
Maybe we need a new website called METACREDIBLE.com where we rank gaming (and tv/movie/etc?) sites in terms of their journalistic integrity... and weight the scores those critics give along with those from well written posts of select credible fans (from NeoGAF, or others?).

I think gaming needs its own version of The Daily Show. It will be entertainment focused, but the primary aim of the show is to critique gaming media and point out some of their mistakes. It would only work if it's popular enough that media can't stay away from it, even if it's criticizing them (much like The Daily Show).
 

Makonero

Member
Maybe we need a new website called METACREDIBLE.com where we rank gaming (and tv/movie/etc?) sites in terms of their journalistic integrity... and weight the scores those critics give along with those from well written posts of select credible fans (from NeoGAF, or others?).

This sounds good. But who's the arbiter of scores? Random users? Because then people could just vote for the ones they like, and individual critics could impact the system.
 

lowrider007

Licorice-flavoured booze?
I'm not sure what people want from these guys, it just seems part of the 'business' to me, I'm not sure it could be done any other way, it's obviously a complicated 'give and take' set-up between publishers/pr and games review sites/journalists (or what ever they want to call themselves).

I think part of being a games journalist or any journalist for that matter is being able to keep your objectivity even when your being pampered by PR, that is part of an important journalistic 'skill-set' imo and I do trust that there are journo's out there that can keep their objectivity regardless of interpersonal relationships and/or gifts from PR, but obviously there are those that can't, just like in any field there are people that are good/bad at their job.

Many people on here have complained that journo's have classed 'gaf' as a single entity/voice but I see similar attitudes towards the press tbh, ok, it's an 'industry' but it's an industry full of different people with different ethics and morals and ways of doing things, just because one journo may not accept a 'gift' from a publisher that doesn't mean that everyone should adhere to the same philosophy, or that you should automatically question their integrity for not doing so.
 

Shinta

Banned
just because one journo may not accept a 'gift' from a publisher that doesn't mean that everyone should adhere to the same philosophy, or that you should automatically question their integrity for not doing so.

If they take gifts from publishers, it does mean you should automatically question them. The key word here is "question." It's not yet an answer, or an indisputable fact. But a question? That's totally fair. Why wouldn't you question that?
 

bryehn

Member
The thing is that bothers me about people that review games in a professional capacity claiming not to be journalists is that critisim is a form of journalism.
 

RedFalcon

Neo Member
This whole thing reminds me of a satire website a friend and I designed a few years back called "Ultra Gaming Hotness" or UGH. We made it to poke fun at just how ridiculous games "journalism" really is. I'll have to dig around on my backup hard drive and see if I still have screenshots of it.

Also, seeing that so many folks want real journalism and honest criticism, it's making me think I should re-launch Critical Pixels. I still own the domain name. However, I work a full-time job in a non-video game-related industry, often working 40+ hour weeks, so I'm not sure when I'd have the time to do much with it. (I was able to crank out my editorial on a Saturday morning after a liberal amount of coffee and green tea but that ate into personal time with family.)

Maybe I could do a once-a-week or every-other-week podcast. I do have experience with hosting and production. It could purely focus on the media and/or be a dedicated personal (someone in the press, development, etc.) interview each week. The last thing the video game scene needs is another "What'cha been playing,'" generic news roundup podcast. Maybe try to get Shawn Elliott, Jeff Green and some other folks on, one a time, so we can really have some great conversations.

Any interest from folks in something like this? Back to work. I'll check back in on my lunch break.
 

El-Suave

Member
If at least people working in games media who make their living having opinions but do no such thing as journalism would now stop refering to themselves as games 'jornalists' at least something good will have come of all this.

Even having an opinion outside talking about the products you're sent may be asking too much - we've had far to few articles blasting Bethesda for their behaviour with Skyrim on PS3 for example. There was NO grey area in that matter - yet they just don't seem to care (Weekend Confirmed is an offender as well on that front).
Even if you just review products, it is not too much to ask to warn your readers or listeners something fishy is going on with a high profile game? When PS3 only outlets were denied PS3 review copies, that should have set off many alarms, and it should have made the rounds among the press.
Too many people don't write for their readers but just for themselves to ensure that they can continue to make a living from it.
 

8bit

Knows the Score
This sounds good. But who's the arbiter of scores? Random users? Because then people could just vote for the ones they like, and individual critics could impact the system.

Then you need a mechanism to control who can vote critics worthiness, a metametacriticcritic if you will.
 

Stuart444

Member
When PS3 only outlets were denied PS3 review copies, that should have set off many alarms, and it should have made the rounds among the press.

As a PS3 owner of Skyrim, I did not know or hear about this until now and if that's true it is very shady especially with no one reporting on it and people can't even use the "I'm not a journalist/I only post about about games" excuse as that is both about games and a news items many game writers tend to post about even if they say stuff like "I'm not a Journalist"

So yeah, had no idea about that.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Fuck me. Please don't bring up PS3 Skyrim. They greatest travesty in all of gaming media. Seriously. Even GB isn't blameless in that shit. And every outlet that gave that game goty? Fuck yourselves.
 
Fuck me. Please don't bring up PS3 Skyrim. They greatest travesty in all of gaming media. Seriously. Even GB isn't blameless in that shit. And every outlet that gave that game goty? Fuck yourselves.

Yup; worst was how lightly they then reported on it - leading to as you say game of the year shit. Bethesda should be an ugly name in the industry.

As soon as the review problems were immediate - sites should have said 'Don't Buy' or given it 0/10. Grow a fucking backbone - force them to send you copies or explain why their not.
 
The part I don't get is...we're like 6 years into the generation. This woman's purported occupation is to review games. How on earth has she not scraped together $200 for a used PS3 to this point, and why should she be reviewing games if she's never been able to spend time with Uncharted, Wipeout HD, MGS 4 etc. this generation?

If she does have one, and tweeted just to get one to sell or replace an aging one, that's even more pathetic.
 

Dennis

Banned
Even having an opinion outside talking about the products you're sent may be asking too much - we've had far to few articles blasting Bethesda for their behaviour with Skyrim on PS3 for example. There was NO grey area in that matter - yet they just don't seem to care (Weekend Confirmed is an offender as well on that front).
Even if you just review products, it is not too much to ask to warn your readers or listeners something fishy is going on with a high profile game? When PS3 only outlets were denied PS3 review copies, that should have set off many alarms, and it should have made the rounds among the press.
Too many people don't write for their readers but just for themselves to ensure that they can continue to make a living from it.

You see my friend, in saying they are not real 'journalists' they think to have found the perfect get-out-of-jail-free card. And they can play that card whenever it suits their purpose. They are still gonna write 'games journalist' on their CV though. Lets not get stupid here.
 
Fuck me. Please don't bring up PS3 Skyrim. They greatest travesty in all of gaming media. Seriously. Even GB isn't blameless in that shit. And every outlet that gave that game goty? Fuck yourselves.

It's very relevant and should be brought up. Every site that reviewed this broken game - and mislead its readers that it had access to the PS3 version - are utterly reprehensible.

They sold Bethesda's knowingly broken, 0FPS release for them, and were complicit in a con that must have been illegal. (EDIT - scratch that: it "should be illegal" to knowingly sell a broken game - no idea if it is).

Sell a knowingly broken game to a misled fanbase, allowing the developer to earn millions, then showering them with GOTY awards. Yeah, Games Journalism.
 

Sharp

Member
I'm not sure what people want from these guys, it just seems part of the 'business' to me, I'm not sure it could be done any other way, it's obviously a complicated 'give and take' set-up between publishers/pr and games review sites/journalists (or what ever they want to call themselves).
In the games industry, I think you are probably right. That said...
I think part of being a games journalist or any journalist for that matter is being able to keep your objectivity even when your being pampered by PR, that is part of an important journalistic 'skill-set' imo and I do trust that there are journo's out there that can keep their objectivity regardless of interpersonal relationships and/or gifts from PR, but obviously there are those that can't, just like in any field there are people that are good/bad at their job.
I strongly disagree with this. Non-games journalists are not expected to keep their objectivity while being pampered by PR, because the mere act of being pampered by PR makes it impossible to remain completely objective. Unless you literally have no memory of what happened (in which case you are amnesiac and probably not a great candidate for journalism of any sort), even the offer of special treatment due to your status is bound to have an effect on you, whether you accept it or not. The effect might even be negative--how dare they try to bribe me like this--but there's still an effect on how you perceive whatever the PR person represents that is independent of the actual product (or candidate, or movement, or whatever). As a result, journalists are expected to avoid situations where they might be influenced by PR. There are journalistic standards around, for example, the amount of monetary value a gift from a PR person can have, what a journalist is allowed to expense, and so on--there's a whole code built around avoiding both conflicts of interest, and the appearance of conflicts of interest. A good publisher is expected to "protect" its journalists from having to deal with these things. It may be that that sort of separation is there in games journalism outfits too, and we just aren't seeing it, but this thread certainly hasn't convinced me of that in any way.
Many people on here have complained that journo's have classed 'gaf' as a single entity/voice but I see similar attitudes towards the press tbh, ok, it's an 'industry' but it's an industry full of different people with different ethics and morals and ways of doing things, just because one journo may not accept a 'gift' from a publisher that doesn't mean that everyone should adhere to the same philosophy, or that you should automatically question their integrity for not doing so.
I can definitely see a situation where I am completely okay with a gaming enthusiast website accepting gifts without consequences, simply because they are video games and, like sports, there are no huge consequences for them not being objective. If MVC decided to exclusively devote itself to Square-Enix--covering only its games, doing in-depth interviews and analyses of their products, reviewing and comparing older titles, studying the culture around them, etc.--I can see there being a lot of value in that. I wouldn't trust the numbers on their reviews, but if I was a dedicated SE fan I'd love having a magazine like that around.

Contrast this with a situation where it's absolutely not okay, and hopefully happening less than it was ten years ago--drug companies throwing elaborate parties and events for doctors under the guise of what are ostensibly "conferences." In theory, doctors are attending these to continue their education and stay up to date with the latest peer-reviewed research; in practice, they are advertised to while being wined and dined in an exotic locale, in hopes that they will select a new drug over a competitor's product when the opportunity arises. In this case, selecting these drugs may not only cost significantly more money to the patient--like, hundreds or thousands of dollars per prescription--it may also endanger the health of the subject.

Obviously, the fact that this situation exists (or existed--like I said, I don't know to what extent this is still going on) is deplorable. Doctors are, by and large, very smart people who have worked very, very hard in a scientific, rational field for many years, while some games journalists don't have any formal training whatsoever. But we sure as hell don't trust our doctors to stay objective under those circumstances. It is simply unfair to members of the games media to hold them to higher moral standards than we do doctors, but that is what people who expect them to remain objective when being ployed with gifts left and right are doing. You guys aren't superhuman, and what you cover isn't a matter of life and death, so when we ask you to write about this story it's not an attack on you as people--we just want to know that you guys are actively thinking about this stuff.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I'd love Stephen Totilo to focus his Silicon Knights taskforce on Bethesda instead and see what sort of exclusive, in-depth coverage they could get on the Skyrim debacle. And the current PS3 dlc nonsense? Where are the interviews and exposAYs for that?
 

Dennis

Banned
I'd love Stephen Totilo to focus his Silicon Knights taskforce on Bethesda instead and see what sort of exclusive, in-depth coverage they could get on the Skyrim debacle. And the current PS3 dlc nonsense? Where are the interviews and exposAYs for that?

No no, they don't go for prey that can fight back.

I mean, how are they going to do the Elder Scrolls V unboxing then?
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Fuck me. Please don't bring up PS3 Skyrim. They greatest travesty in all of gaming media. Seriously. Even GB isn't blameless in that shit. And every outlet that gave that game goty? Fuck yourselves.

Didn't GB explicitly state that it's 360 and PC version that he reviewed? I don't see a problem because those version were fine. Well, bethesda "fine" anyway. I had a blast with skyrim on PC, not GOTY but the PS3 is not going to affect my ranking because I didn't play that version.
 
It's very relevant and should be brought up. Every site that reviewed this broken game - and mislead its readers that it had access to the PS3 version - are utterly reprehensible.

They sold Bethesda's knowingly broken, 0FPS release for them, and were complicit in a con that must have been illegal.

Sell a knowingly broken game to a misled fanbase, allowing the developer to earn millions, then showering them with GOTY awards. Yeah, Games Journalism.

This is not good wording and betrays your conviction rather than reinforces it.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Oh young grasshoppers, the world turns and history repeats itself, nothing changes and everything changes. There used to be a blog called Video Game Ombudsman or something which apparently became this site vgmwatch, I can find an example of complaints about SpikeTV from 2004: http://vgmwatch.com/archives/498 I stopped paying attention to people complaining about game journalism because it is probably at least less corrupt than any other form of journalism like politics or thinly veiled marketing
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Didn't GB explicitly state that it's 360 and PC version that he reviewed? I don't see a problem because those version were fine. Well, bethesda "fine" anyway. I had a blast with skyrim on PC, not GOTY but the PS3 is not going to affect my ranking because I didn't play it.

The reviews are fine for their respective versions (except PS3 isn't reviewed) but it's their GOTY deliberations that were utterly horrendous.
 
Her "journalism" career is OVER. Potential employers tend to google applicants during the interview process, and she has left a huge digital paper trail of wrongdoings.

She has written for the biggest daily paper in England, which is one of the few publications that make games sites look like a bastion of integrity, they won't care in the slightest.
 

Dennis

Banned
It's very relevant and should be brought up. Every site that reviewed this broken game - and mislead its readers that it had access to the PS3 version - are utterly reprehensible.

They sold Bethesda's knowingly broken, 0FPS release for them, and were complicit in a con that must have been illegal.

Sell a knowingly broken game to a misled fanbase, allowing the developer to earn millions, then showering them with GOTY awards. Yeah, Games Journalism.

Time to get a libel lawyer, Mama Robotnik.
 
This is not good wording and betrays your conviction rather than reinforces it.

Fair point and you are absolutely right looking back at the post, I know nothing about the law and don't know if its illegal or not. A bit too colourful a post.

Perhaps I should say that I think knowingly selling a broken game "should" be illegal? Either way I've edited a disclaimer into it.
 
You see my friend, in saying they are not real 'journalists' they think to have found the perfect get-out-of-jail-free card. And they can play that card whenever it suits their purpose. They are still gonna write 'games journalist' on their CV though. Lets not get stupid here.

Perfect!

I love how these guys keep having to invent new terms to justify their existence. Since they're now enthusiast press, somehow that makes the handouts and freebies OK.
 

Shurs

Member
This whole thing reminds me of a satire website a friend and I designed a few years back called "Ultra Gaming Hotness" or UGH. We made it to poke fun at just how ridiculous games "journalism" really is. I'll have to dig around on my backup hard drive and see if I still have screenshots of it.

Also, seeing that so many folks want real journalism and honest criticism, it's making me think I should re-launch Critical Pixels. I still own the domain name. However, I work a full-time job in a non-video game-related industry, often working 40+ hour weeks, so I'm not sure when I'd have the time to do much with it. (I was able to crank out my editorial on a Saturday morning after a liberal amount of coffee and green tea but that ate into personal time with family.)

Maybe I could do a once-a-week or every-other-week podcast. I do have experience with hosting and production. It could purely focus on the media and/or be a dedicated personal (someone in the press, development, etc.) interview each week. The last thing the video game scene needs is another "What'cha been playing,'" generic news roundup podcast. Maybe try to get Shawn Elliott, Jeff Green and some other folks on, one a time, so we can really have some great conversations.

Any interest from folks in something like this? Back to work. I'll check back in on my lunch break.

You should go for it!

It would be a shame if the self-promotion and patting yourself on the back that you've done in this thread was for nothing.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
The reviews are fine for their respective versions (except PS3 isn't reviewed) but it's their GOTY deliberations that were utterly horrendous.

Thing is, should the PS3 version be part of the equation if it's not something that affects your experience with the game? GOTY is a personal evaluation of the games of the year I don't see why the experience that you have while playing the game should be affected by a version they didn't play? That's one thing I never understood from the arguments that sprung up about skyrim during last year's GOTY period.

It's a really shitty situation and one that bethesda is still trying to live down, but I can only see giving skyrim GOTY as unethical if the sites awarding it didn't give the caveat that the PS3 version should be avoided at all costs.

I guess it's more about what message you want the sites to give with their GOTYs.
 

Bedlam

Member
The reviews are fine for their respective versions (except PS3 isn't reviewed) but it's their GOTY deliberations that were utterly horrendous.
While I think they fell a little too much for the hype (at least they chose that game over SR3... Jeff is crazy), they explicitly stated several times during the deliberations that the PS3 version is exempt from the praise if I remember correctly.
 
So brutal.

For the late crowd:
TQA4D.jpg
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Japanese McD's does the 150 yen any size fries like once every month/2 months anyway.. at least for the last 2-3 years. So I don't even know why they'd talk about it now... wait yes I do..
 

kodt

Banned
If at least people working in games media who make their living having opinions but do no such thing as journalism would now stop refering to themselves as games 'journalists' at least something good will have come of all this.

There should be no doubt left in anyones mind that what goes on a the sites we are all familiar with is not journalism. They had the choice here of either a willingness to embrace certain ethical standards or give up the pretense of journalism. They have mostly chosen the latter.

But even being a "reviewer" requires certain ethical standards explained well by the quote from Roger Ebert posted earlier in this thread.

Unless they are claiming to be "commentators" such as Bill O'Riley and Glenn Beck, then they can pretty much do whatever they want. Although, that shouldn't garner much respect.
 
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