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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
- Thread starter papersleeves
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EternalGamer
Banned
You clearly still haven't read this thread or even the highlighted posts in the OP. This isnt about critics "on the take." If you do cover it, maybe you should strongly consider having an outside writer do it for you. I am not trying to be a dick, but you have been posting in this thread for sometime and you still want to reduce it to a simplistic issue of writers "on the take." That seems to require some willful ignorance of the topics being discussed.
EternalGamer
Banned
Totilo: start with these posts. Maybe you will get an idea of what this thread is about now:
Yeah. If you think Kotaku or any similar outlet that propagates this problem is going to cover this issue fairly and intelligently, then I have a exclusive preview of a bridge to show you.
Choice quote from that article (as most of it is just a recap of the events so far):
While there is a balance of power element (companies give exclusive and early access to games), that's really focusing on a limb instead of the root of the problem.
Again, you don't have to accept that advance copy of a game. You don't have to go to some exclusive preview event. You don't have to be super chummy with PR/development/publishers so you can keep your foot in the door for that potential job on the other side of the aisle.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
The idiocy of this is overwhelming. How the "industry" let shit like this happen is mindboggling.
What a hilariously funny image I now have...
Anyway while I am skeptical of whatever Kotaku might write on this issue, I will remain skeptical until they put something up rather than say "Nah, they won't post anything of value or cover this fairly" or anything.
Give them a chance and all that.
clay_ghost
Member
They are not going to change anything. And this is true for whatever country , japan with famitsu reviews, hong kong with their magazine with PlayStation bias (when i last read them as the start of last gen) , Singapore games magazines too( actually reader benefit as games on cover or are highly rated mostly have free giveaways for reader).
Unlike the others industries, games industries does not care about journalist integrity. This is because they(as in the boss behind the main editor aka the big bosses) do not see video game as a valid media , purely as a entertainment news source.As long as the magazines/website /etc can provide entertainment to the reader and generate income , the big bosses will not care.
They are no bad consequences(mostly) if they continue their way anyway, do you think that the people will want better Journalism will affect their bottom line? Those who care does not generate income for the big bosses anyway as they will not go near these sites.
Unlike the others industries, games industries does not care about journalist integrity. This is because they(as in the boss behind the main editor aka the big bosses) do not see video game as a valid media , purely as a entertainment news source.As long as the magazines/website /etc can provide entertainment to the reader and generate income , the big bosses will not care.
They are no bad consequences(mostly) if they continue their way anyway, do you think that the people will want better Journalism will affect their bottom line? Those who care does not generate income for the big bosses anyway as they will not go near these sites.
Like I said: Kotaku is shit and they have "more important things" like FF7 hentai in Japan to worry about instead of shining a mirror on themselves and the industry at large.
What a complete joke of a website.
The community convincing Kotaku to do the story is going to merely be capitulation on the part of Totilo for not covering it in the first place because at this point he does look foolish for ignoring it. As much as many people here and otherwise think it's important, I'm afraid Totilo is probably right about his -actual- audience. Have you read or experienced anything from Kotaku's commentariat? Their reactions to a story about LGBT issues? (http://kotaku.com/5854012/this-gaymers-story) Kirk Hamilton had to actually write an article defending their awful commenters to save face.
I don't have future sight, but ask yourself, do you really think Kotaku, one of the biggest money rakers from the status quo, is going to indict casual conflict of interest and general grey area pall over the enthusiast press? And will their sometimes bigoted, sometimes uninformed audience even care?
EternalGamer
Banned
I just want to say going along with Shawn Elliot's last post about the importance of gaming forums doing this sort of questioning, that the work of compiling important posts in this thread into a succinct index the way Ledsen's post has (though many others contributed to that indexing) is invaluable.
Diablohead
Member
"It would take reporting to find out" indeed.
I've already said it once, but the games industry is hardly the only one with these kinds of situations.
Do you guys think Engadget buys every piece of hardware they review/preview?
This is the hobby we care about so we're invested in how the attached press handles themselves, but try to remember that this isn't a unique malady among enthusiast press.
Do you guys think Engadget buys every piece of hardware they review/preview?
This is the hobby we care about so we're invested in how the attached press handles themselves, but try to remember that this isn't a unique malady among enthusiast press.
stephentotilo
Behind The Games
You're right that if they hadn't send the console we would not have done the unboxing. It wouldn't have been worth the budget or minimal time it took to make this video to get our own. But we also wouldn't have had the special edition console and game a couple of weeks before the game was officially out. So my judgment there is that there are a decent amount of people who would be interested in seeing the thing, sizing up whether it's something they want--particularly with the limited edition game, since those are often bundled with extras that can be of questionable quality. I've found that readers like having some extra info about what's in a special edition to see if it's worth it and prefer to have that info in advance. It's not that different than the purpose reviews serve for some readers, since some readers just want to read a review as shopping advice rather than as the critical assessment of a piece of art.
We actually don't post anything about the vast majority of things we're sent, so it's not as simple as "Company A can send Expensive Thing X and be sure Kotaku will post about it." But you're right to be watchful about that and it, of course, is something I think about any time we have the opportunity to post about something that came in the mail.
PR is always trying to do their job of getting their positive spin out on a game. Sometimes that dovetails with what we want to publish, sometimes it clashes directly with it. For example, sticking with Halo 4, PR freaked out a week or two ago when we ran a video of the intro of the game, embedded from YouTube, with a description of what was in the video. Again, our judgment at the site was that readers would like to know the intro is viewable and check it out. PR tried to convince me this violated the NDA we signed tied to reviewing the game and made it clear that they wanted even the text description we had of the trailer removed. But it didn't violate the NDA and we kept the description up. I mention that not to make you a fan of unboxings but to share my perspective that, in my experience, there is much more of a push-pull that doesn't come close to always aligning with PR/publisher interests. I can't speak for other outlets, but that's been my experience where I've worked.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Of course that was bought and paid for by Microsoft.. do they even try to hide that?
Honestly, attacking the un-boxing video does nothing to prove your point, because it's a perfectly harmless piece that shows people what's in the box from a different perspective than a straight PR release on MS's site.
..and if you watched it they actually weren't all that excited for the limited edition. If MS was trying to buy an infomercial hard selling the editions, they didn't get their money's worth.
..but the whole argument about the un-boxing doesn't show there is any bias in reviews.. which honestly this whole thing really seems to be about for some of biggest posters in this thread.
EternalGamer
Banned
You are correct and we SHOULD take this kind of hard look at all the media we consume. The media is no longer striving for Edward R. Murrows ideal of information free of compromise from either side (corporate or consumer influence). It is up to the audience to start demanding it since all media outlets now see themsleves as businesses first and foremost.
Since we are invested in this hobby and on a gaming forum, we explore this aspect of it here. But a lot of the questions being asked and skills being developed here have application elsewhere.
I have a bit of a spin-off question, Totilo. Do you see any major differences between the aggressiveness, and intrusiveness of PR from western game companies and eastern game companies?
I think the thing that really sticks out most about your anecdote is just the relentless insertion of PR opinion into the editorial process, and how aggressive they can be. Do all game companies do this relatively equally?
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Yeah, because reviews that come out AFTER release are so useful to Day 1 buyers.
That's going to result in even WORSE reviews as they will be rushed to get out as fast as possible.
Microsoft sent you that package because they wanted/hoped to get some coverage of their game this late in the PR cycle. Yes, there might be reasons why covering it is interesting to your readers, but let's not forget that the one and only reason why Microsoft sent you this is to achieve a specific goal (I've mentioned it earlier: Nice huge boxes naturally get more attention, etc). Bluntly said; they play you like puppets. Not necessarily evil or bad for your users in this case, but that's what it is and absolutely nothing else.
Maybe if a company sends you something, you should specifically not post about it to send them a message. Then again, at that point everyone would be sending you guys everything so you'd simply stop posting in general.
Foxtastical
Member
So, what mental gymnastics are involved in the rationalization for this?
wow
EternalGamer
Banned
Maybe you shouldnt be perpetuating a hype machine that actively encourages readers to buy things "day one" any way. If that is game writing's primary function than it really is just an extension of PR.
Have you ever stopped to think that the perpetuation of this "gotta have it day one" concept stems directly from the PR-Media machine? I have a lot of friends who like videogames but have never been a "hardcore gamer" like I am. They dont read tons of magazines and websites. They buy a lot of games for full price but rarely do I hear them clamoring for release dates amd they never preorder or stand in lines outside of stores.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
It's almost as if you're not paying attention to the actual issues being discussed.
Well I don't see Kotaku got played in the sense that they weren't aware of MS's intentions. Everybody got what they wanted: MS gets coverage, Kotaku get clicks, readers get information. Obviously there should be a larger point of discussion on this kind of practice in the first place.
Are they being ironic or am I missing something?
wow
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
What stops Microsoft/Xbox posting their own video on youtube showing the unboxing?
Nothing.
The fact they fired all there staff (indie Xbox) as external media are doing it all for them.
That would be advertising so you have your guard up.
That is why they need Kotaku.
EternalGamer
Banned
I dont even understand what the fuck is useful about this. The box lists its contents. Everybody knows what a 360 is and how it works. The only purpose of showing unboxings is to build anticipating and create allure. In other words, marketing.
Next time I buy fast food maybe I should youtube my "unboxing."
The very fact that a lot of readers apparently dont realize that unboxings are nothing more than marketing just highlights part of the problem.
If you want to do a hardware review, do a hardware review. But that is not what unboxings are. They are just consumer porn.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
But they clearly see a benefit in asking others to do it for them then. Reasonable assumption?
Ie vicarious marketing.
Ie vicarious marketing.
Give the readers what they want.
clay_ghost
Member
Also when Kotaku review Halo 4 on their shiny new xbox 360 they will subconsciously rate it better. Its human nature , happen to everyone. That why games company host gamer event and let gamer try their games, with free food and drinks and swag
Live Free or Die
Banned
You guys are making a big deal out of nothing. Just play games and stop worrying who is sponsoring what. If we didn't have scored reviews for game most of this stuff would never happen.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
How would we know what games to play without our friends at Polygon and Kotaku?
I'd be lost forever.
I'd be lost forever.
stephentotilo
Behind The Games
I haven't noticed any significant eastern/western divide. Some publishers have more aggressive PR folks than others.
Mama Robotnik
Member
I don't understand these kind of posts. We're discussing a very interesting series of events, indicative of serious PR/"journalism" issues that have prompted varied opinions from different sources. Nearly five thousand posts have considered this in only a few days and there are still many unresolved questions...
And your response, is effectively "shhhhhhhhhh".
How is this a contribution?
Pretty much, otherwise they could have had a couple of community guys from 343i do it themselves instead of mailing all this crap to kotaku.
EternalGamer
Banned
Also when Kotaku review Halo 4 on their shiny new xbox 360 they will subconsciously rate it better. Its human nature , happen to everyone. That why games company host gamer event and let gamer try their games, with free food and drinks and swag
From Shawn Elliot and Robert Ashley's Gamasutra article in 2008 (also fuck you guys for leaving game writing):
papersleeves
Member
Updated
Precisely. Sites are doing what amounts to "free advertising" anytime they show this crap.
Do readers like it? Of course. Does that mean game sites should make these videos themselves? Hell, no. Let MS (or whoever) do this junk. Link to it if you absolutely must. As any journalist should know, just because it gets clicks that doesn't mean it's ethical.
Publishers or manufacturers send you this crap. What they're "buying" from you is direct access to your readers. That's advertising. You may as well just send MS your readers' email addresses.
EternalGamer
Banned
The reason they don't want to do it is that it is clear the viewer would be more skeptical if MS did it themselves. By having game media do it for them, they borrow their credibility for the purpose of their own marketing.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
I honestly can't get over the commentary on this from Weekend Confirmed, it's fucking ridiculous. I could have sworn that, back on 1up, Garnett and John Davidson would have been outraged by this shit and here's Garnett and crew practically giving it a ringing endorsement. Gross, gross, gross.
I guess they're reviewing the goodies in collector editions. Which sounds really stupid.
Exactly. And yet journalists say they're doing nothing wrong. So not only is MS "buying" direct access to readers/viewers, but they're also "buying" a site's credibility. It's dirty. And the fact that journalists don't want to acknowledge or admit this is even dirtier.
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