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[Skyzard]

If society were a bit more empathetic, we wouldn't need to call it empowering, it would just be what she decided to wear. The problem with our own culture though is that even fashion is dominated with certain appeals to male sensibilities which are a result of being raised under patriarchy. If she wore a hoodie to the event and that wasn't part of the character she was portrayed as, she would be ridiculed. That's the real problem.

Also, making assumptions about her as she would exist in a videogame is far more problematic, given that you're hypothesizing sexism which doesn't exist.

I agree with your first paragraph (and only, not the second because of the current state of things, what he said was true). In this particular case especially - she may have an image to represent but that would be her choice as well - there is also a difference between a hoodie and something more modest. There are nice classy dresses right, she seems like she can afford one to fit if she wanted to?

The point about patriarchy is interesting as well. Is there more to that?

 

[ReiGun]

I wasn't on gaf when it came out, but I've seen tons of criticism about DoA Volleyball (and the whole series really) since I started following games. Even I, as the proverbial 15 year old boy, found it kinda creepy. Just my personal experience.

Still, I think this conversation has been too focused on this one example of late. Dragon's Crown on its own isn't a problem; it's the larger trend in gaming and the media in general.

I just want to say two things: 1. People don't want to censor games. Well, reasonable people don't. Those who are criticizing the industry just want more variety. 2. This conversation does occur with other media. Television, movies, books. You name it, people have discussed its treatment of women. It just happens that this is a gaming forum, so we end up talking about gaming a lot.

I'm kinda jumping around here, but I've been reading these these threads for a while and I see these points come up a lot. Besides, these threads are all the same. lol

 

[Overboost]

Do you know anything like how the Sorceress' air dash works, or basic mechanics for the different characters? I mean...we know almost nothing about this game, haha. So anything is appreciated, even if it's early.

I don't think the Sorc had her air dash in the build I played. The elf's mid-air arrow shot propelled her into the air instead of hovering her just a bit, so you could just fly off the screen indefinitely as long as you kept shooting arrows. That's how early this build was.

But I've said too much already! We'll all get our hands on it this summer.

Nicki Minaj literally popping her ass

Wait 'til you see the Amazon's trailer.

 

[DigitalOp]

There have been thousands of posts over the years talking about certain specific games and the problem of sexism. Have you replied to every single one of those posts?

This is a ridiculous standard to hold any thinking person to.

Im not you. If I see it, I say it. I OBVIOUSLY can't possibly find every offender. But when I find one, Im gonna label it an offender. Not pick and choose from what I like and don't like.

Ive already said DC Sorceress panders her sexuality. Im not holding any particular side. I see shit as a whole.

She said nothing of Dragon's Crown being the sole offender.

Again--I don't agree with her opinion, at all, but this is one woman's opinion on one game's art style. The characters of Borderlands have nothing to do with what she's saying.

She didn't say "Dragon's Crown art is awful, but everything else especially including the stuff made by my employer, is fine." She said, "Dragon's Crown's art is awful." She said nothing of Borderlands either way. Maybe she does have reservations about Borderlands' art. Maybe she doesn't. Who gives a shit?

You can't respond to everything with everything all the time. No person can be reasonably expected to bring up the entire fucking history of sexism in video game art whenever they feel the desire to voice their opinion on one particular example. This is just nonsensical.

When did I say use the entire history as opinion backing?

But if you can't even notice the COUNTLESS other examples of sexism in the industry for your talking points and see the totality of the issue , (When your employer is one of the guilty as well?!) then just maybe you shouldn't be having a fucking discussion about Sexism. That in itself nonsensical.

Esp when:

1. You came off like an ass in your post

2. You barely criticize the work itself and attack the artist

 

[Cyrano]

I agree with your first paragraph (and only, not the second because of the current state of things, what he said was true). In this particular case especially - she may have an image to represent but that would be her choice as well - there is also a difference between a hoodie and something more modest. There are nice classy dresses right, she seems like she can afford one to fit if she wanted to?

The point about patriarchy is interesting as well. Is there more to that?

Here's a good place to start with regards to understanding feminism: http://www.shakesville.com/2010/01/feminism-101.html

I'm not saying that the dress isn't classy, or even that it's wrong. I'm saying that how she is treated for wearing what she wears reflects on our society, not her. If sexy Professor Layton goes to a convention we laugh and enjoy his costume decision. We don't call him a slut or treat him like he's "asking for it." That happens to women. That happens A LOT to women. Not just in real life, but in our fiction as well.

 

[Ratrat]

This is a woman with large breasts choosing to wear what she wants in a public appearance. No one forced her.

This is fine. This is empowering. It's pure girl power, I bet.

If someone put her into a video game, it'd be sexist and juvenile. Seems a bit unfair to her, honestly.

Would her game character be an actress or a warrior?

 

[cheststrongwell]

I certainly don't want to "offend" anyone, but with things like the recent upswing in sexism threads on NeoGaf and the forked dongles incident earlier this year everyone could use a little prayer and give a little prayer to those women who are in need right now.

 

[GuardianE]

Would her game character be an actress or a warrior?

Probably a magic user.

 

[SixMachine]

When people say they want more variety in Dragon's Crown because the sorceress exists, do they not know that the amazon and elf have entirely different builds? People say they don't want to censor the sorceress, Vanillaware or even Kamitani's expression but they just want variety, isn't there already variety in this game? Every character, male or female is shaped differently and all exaggerated to a tremendous degree. There's also a normal dressed npc in the trailer. So what do people want from this game?

 

[faceless007]

Im not you. If I see it, I say it. I OBVIOUSLY can't possibly find every offender. But when I find one, Im gonna label it an offender. Not pick and choose from what I like and don't like.

So it's OK for you to be selective about the things you complain about and not go to the trouble of finding every single example in existence, but not her? How do you know that the artist in question is picking and choosing in a way that you aren't? Have you scoured through her writings and forum posts to see what else she has criticized? Or did you just assume that this one forum post must be the total extent of whatever she's written on the subject just because someone took the trouble to link it on NeoGAF?

Either you complain about every single example of something that bothers you, or you're just as much a hypocrite by your own standard.

Or maybe you realize that no reasonable person should be expected to fulfill a quota of message board posts on a given subject just to be perceived as consistent in their views.

 

[Jobbs]

This is a gross simplification of a woman choosing her attire vs how some designers pander.

And so are the attacks against many games, such as the attack against Dragon's Crown. Somehow every time a woman is sexy in a video game or has big breasts it's somehow an oppressive sexist evil man penis thing. And I just don't get it at all. I don't think a woman being sexy in itself or having large breasts in itself is in any way an ugly or wrong or offensive thing. Call me crazy. But by the tone and nature of the various idiotic attacks against video games as being sexist, you'd think having tits = sexist. Being sexy = sexist. Hot woman existing = sexist.

The artist in the OP allows that the character in Dragon's Crown is sexist simply because she exists and how she looks, without any context. It's in that spirit and by that standard that I submit Christina Hendricks couldn't exist in a video game wearing that dress, because all we've learned from Gearbox artist is that big breasts showing = sexist and hostile towards women.

 

[MarkusRJR]

Didn't the artists at Gearbox steal the art style for Borderlands when interest for Borderlands was middling during the time it had it's bland art style? Not sure they have any right to claim maturity or integrity after the shit Gearbox has done over the years.

 

[HK-47]

Didn't the artists at Gearbox steal the art style for Borderlands when interest for Borderlands was middling when it had it's bland art style? Not sure they have any right to claim maturity or integrity after the shit Gearbox has done over the years.

I'm sure she's the one who was like "Lets fucking jack this guy's art style for our game." What a conniving bitch huh?

 

[blitzcloud]

Gotta love the ad hominem attack in her post.

 

[Goon Boon]

I'm sure she the one who was like "Lets fucking jack this guy's art style for our game." What a conniving bitch huh?

Your misogyny is disgusting.

 

[Jobbs]

If we're going to do this, can we do this without name calling? It's just a video game...

 

[HK-47]

Your misogyny is disgusting.

Your sarcasm detector is totally working.

 

[zoukka]

Would her game character be an actress or a warrior?

Exactly.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The irony.

Sorry; SHE is a cunt. :v

 

[Green Mamba]

When did I say use the entire history as opinion backing?

But if you can't even notice the COUNTLESS other examples of sexism in the industry for your talking points and see the totality of the issue , (When your employer is one of the guilty as well?!) then just maybe you shouldn't be having a fucking discussion about Sexism. That in itself nonsensical.

Esp when:

1. You came off like an ass in your post

2. You barely criticize the work itself and attack the artist

So don't raise your opinion unless you plan on bringing up a complete historical background of the subject each time you raise it, especially if other people won't like it, got it.

Don't speak your negative opinion, just keep your mouth shut? Give me a break.

What is the cut off point? Where do you deign there are enough examples to talk about sexism in the gaming industry?

I don't agree with her opinion, and I think it's poorly formulated, but cries of "hypocrisy" and bringing up Borderlands shit is just stupid and has basically nothing to do with what was said. She didn't design the Borderlands characters. We don't know what her opinion on the subject is. She never anywhere indicated that she didn't notice it elsewhere (the contrary, in fact). She just lamented the state of women in the industry and used Dragon's Crown as an example (poorly). That's it. At no point does Borderlands or her opinions on her employer's designs come into play.

Have you even investigated her any further than the single board post this topic is about? If you have, please, share what her opinions on other games are. If not, you're kind of going against your own argument here.

 

[Open Source]

Dragon's Crown is the wrong hill to die on for those defending "artistic integrity."

 

[Shai-Tan]

Playthings - Claire Hosking

Tits or GTFO - Jenn Frank

Two pretty interesting articles on the subject.

thanks for sharing. I think the longer form meditation elevates the discussion more. go back every few pages here and it's a blank slate. same discussion, different people

 

[antitrop]

Playthings - Claire Hosking

Tits or GTFO - Jenn Frank

Two pretty interesting articles on the subject.

Jenn Frank's piece is fantastic. I remember her from her 1UP days, she's a fantastic writer. Very good at getting the readers attention and keeping it, even for a topic I'm not overly interested in.

 

[Skyzard]

Here's a good place to start with regards to understanding feminism: http://www.shakesville.com/2010/01/feminism-101.html

I'm not saying that the dress isn't classy, or even that it's wrong. I'm saying that how she is treated for wearing what she wears reflects on our society, not her. If sexy Professor Layton goes to a convention we laugh and enjoy his costume decision. We don't call him a slut or treat him like he's "asking for it." That happens to women. That happens A LOT to women. Not just in real life, but in our fiction as well.

I actually meant about how patriarchy was responsible for parts of our fashion culture:

The problem with our own culture though is that even fashion is dominated with certain appeals to male sensibilities which are a result of being raised under patriarchy.

But maybe someone will find your link useful.

People are judged depending on how they present themselves. Some people call men who dress so, slutty, there just isn't as bad an association with it for men generally. People may say that is sexist, and that is true, but it doesn't change the way people feel in general. Of course people differ in what they think is slutty and it differs in different cultures.

That extra-negative (general) association attached to slutty for women is pretty complicated. It's of course something that existed for a while, perhaps [and when I say perhaps, it's a total guess since the naming sounds right] a result of how prostitutes dress to attract customers and so negativity by association. But why are prostitutes looked down on, because they sell sexual intercourse. Why is sex (or maybe sexual integrity) so important, especially for women? I'll leave that there. Actually - Tradition/Culture? Objectification? Insecurities? Stability fears? Pride? Generally, men assign value (or appreciate qualities) to women differently to how women do to men I bet as well. Guess a lot of it has to do with male-dominated culture throughout history but maybe not. And maybe for some it's less to do with sexual integrity or reputation and more to do with simply seeking attention being considered a negative trait. Who knows.

 

[Cyrano]

I actually meant about how patriarchy was responsible for parts of our fashion culture:



But maybe someone will find your link useful.

People are judged depending on how they present themselves. Some people call men who dress so, slutty, there just isn't as bad an association with it for men generally. People may say that is sexist, and that is true, but it doesn't change the way people feel in general. Of course people differ in what they think is slutty and it differs in different cultures.

Here's a book on fashion and power. It's free too.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...w8#v=onepage&q=fashion and patriarchy&f=false

Tim Wise also has a nice video on how minority individuals effectively have to fight for their own ability to be perceived as an individual and not as representative of their minority: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5OkHysPNog

 

[zoukka]

Dragon's Crown is the wrong hill to die on for those defending "artistic integrity."

Of course. It's merely the latest spark to ignite the discussion. As an individual game it's fairly harmless and far from the biggest offenders.

It does have the "anime angle" though which always helps people like Sacher and this gearbox artist in delivering their agendas.

 

[Skyzard]

Here's a book on fashion and power. It's free too.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...w8#v=onepage&q=fashion and patriarchy&f=false

Thanks for the link..couldn't find the free copy but I may look into it one day.

 

[Orochinagis]

I find it irony coming for a company that literally rips off other creative artists .

 

[zoukka]

I find it irony coming for a company that literally rips off other creative artists .

This is not coming from a company.

 

[remnant]

I just want to say two things: 1. People don't want to censor games. Well, reasonable people don't. Those who are criticizing the industry just want more variety. 2. This conversation does occur with other media. Television, movies, books. You name it, people have discussed its treatment of women. It just happens that this is a gaming forum, so we end up talking about gaming a lot.

I'm kinda jumping around here, but I've been reading these these threads for a while and I see these points come up a lot. Besides, these threads are all the same. lol

1. Bull fucking shit. This is nothing but wanting to censor games. Whenever someone says "We need to change how something looks as to not offend someone." You are censoring.

This is fine to me if you are a publisher trying to not lose your investment, but a blogger, a gaf member, this gearbox employee....they are advocating and calling for censorship of this artists individual style.

2. Other mediums have this conversation as well, yes... but they have also matured to a area where artistic integrity is respected. Film and book censorship is pretty cut and dry. if we held the same standards that film or books use, there wouldn't be any debate on whether or not this is censorship. it would be well established from the start what this is.

 

[Cyrano]

Thanks for the link..couldn't find the free copy but I may look into it one day.

No problem. Hope you get some time to check it out.

As for fashion and power, I think that Lady Gaga's Bad Romance is an interesting juxtaposition between concepts of male ownership and female power with regards to sex, especially the music video. There is an interesting narrative occurring which puts the male in the same dominated position that females tend to be put in with regards to sex in our society.

I think that's why lots of people call her videos weird, not because they are strange nearly so much as they tend towards a female perspective on sex which espouses the female in a position of power over sex.

 

[ReiGun]

1. Bull fucking shit. This is nothing but wanting to censor games. Whenever someone says "We need to change how something looks as to not offend someone." You are censoring.

This is fine to me if you are a publisher trying to not lose your investment, but a blogger, a gaf member, this gearbox employee....they are advocating and calling for censorship of this artists individual style.

2. Other mediums have this conversation as well, yes... but they have also matured to a area where artistic integrity is respected. Film and book censorship is pretty cut and dry. if we held the same standards that film or books use, there wouldn't be any debate on whether or not this is censorship. it would be well established from the start what this is.

1. I see a lot of people in these threads arguing for more variety in the art styles and characterizations within games. I don't believe asking for more variety is censorship. Are there people who want to censor these games? Sure. But characterizing everyone on one side of the issue as wanting that is unfair and lazy. (Hence, my comment about reasonable people. I think simply wanting more choice available from a medium is much more reasonable than lobbying for the wholesale removal of content you find objectionable.)

2. I am aware of that. However, every time this conversation starts, you have people going off, saying, "Why is everyone picking on games?" They're not; if anything, they're trying to hold games to the same standard as films and music by asking some of the same questions.

Games are not being singled out, as some say. It just happens we're on a gaming forum and this is a hot topic in gaming atm.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So let me get this straight: an individual (who happens to work as an environment artist for Gearbox) made an offhand forum post criticizing a specific artwork, and this makes 25 pages on GAF? Ugh, WTF.

I like Vanillaware art, myself, and I think this sorceress looks silly ("fucking lol" is probably close to my reaction the first time I saw it) though I think Shaylyn's particular comments were a bit childish and uncalled for towards the artist. That said, it's an internet forum post, made by an individual on her own time, not a review or a press release. Who the hell cares?

And people crying hypocrisy are idiots just blindly jumping on the Gearbox-bashing* bandwagon and conflating this with a person having an opinion. She didn't do the character art, and even if she did, Moxxi's context in Borderlands is a lot different than this sorceress so it wouldn't even be hypocritical then... but she's an environment artist, so the whole thing is completely moot.

Did anyone even read the entire thread? Shaylyn posts a few more about the matter, and nothing she says is unreasonable at all, even if I disagree with her on the Vanillaware artist. Jesus, some people... the knee jerk reactions are pathetic.

* Ironically enough I'm totally behind Gearbox bashing as I find their plagiarism and business practices reprehensible. This has absolutely jack shit to do with Shaylyn's opinion on the sorceress design, however.

 

[Skyzard]

No problem. Hope you get some time to check it out.

As for fashion and power, I think that Lady Gaga's Bad Romance is an interesting juxtaposition between concepts of male ownership and female power with regards to sex, especially the music video. There is an interesting narrative occurring which puts the male in the same dominated position that females tend to be put in with regards to sex in our society.

I think that's why lots of people call her videos weird, not because they are strange nearly so much as they tend towards a female perspective on sex which espouses the female in a position of power over sex.

I was going to refer to lady gaga in a negative way earlier on "not everyone has to dress like lady gaga" but thought better of it, not that I don't appreciate how empowering she can be. Will have a watch of her video again, thanks again.

 

[remnant]

1. I see a lot of people in these threads arguing for more variety in the art styles and characterizations within games. I don't believe asking for more variety is censorship. Are there people who want to censor these games? Sure. But characterizing everyone on one side of the issue as wanting that is unfair and lazy. (Hence, my comment about reasonable people. I think simply wanting more choice available from a medium is much more reasonable than lobbying for the wholesale removal of content you find objectionable.)

2. I am aware of that. However, every time this conversation starts, you have people going off, saying, "Why is everyone picking on games?" They're not; if anything, they're trying to hold games to the same standard as films and music by asking some of the same questions.

Games are not being singled out, as some say. It just happens we're on a gaming forum and this is a hot topic in gaming atm.

1. Then shouldn't those people be supporting the games and developers doing what they apparently want. I have seen, literally dozens of threads, and blog posts and essays about how bad this industry is, especially in regard to this one game.
Almost nothing about any of the smaller indie games or developers who are doing things differently. Nothing about any progress being made, just daily reminders of how "juvenile, immature/hateful etc etc" games are today.

People want more variety. Fine, actually support what is out there. Don't give DC basically free publicity.

2. People are picking on games. No other mediums can i think of when you can ask...no, in some cases demand an artist change their style to not offend someone on a creative basis.

Look at this passage out of penny arcade's recent article about dragon crown.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/...t-like-men-the-disappointing-conversation-and

Penny Arcade’s Mike “Gabe” Krahulik and I sometimes have spirited discussions about this sort of thing, and I’m going to sound like a major kiss-ass here, but his illustrations of young women are, to me, amazing. I show them to my daughter and she wants to tell me stories about these characters.

Krahulik's design exists as more than something my male eyes are supposed to look at. Once that limitation is removed, you can begin to think of all sorts of adventures for these characters, with the bonus of not having to worry about how they keep their shirts on. There's no right or wrong way to draw things, but the lack of thought and the sense of coasting on old designs in female character design is holding the industry back.

This is relatively tame "criticism" of the art style, and what is it basically saying. DC artstyle is wrong. it doesn't fit the sensibilities i want my child to see. Thus not only is it wrong, it is pushing the industry in a direction I don't want it to go.

That has always been the buzzwords of censorists. The idea that the art itself is offensive and is pushing a negative narrative for the viewer, often a child. it was the same argument used in early film codes, in the comicbook authority codes, the same logic used to banish and edit books. Offensive, wrong and why couldn't they have done this.

these type of people never censor because they dislike the practice. They do it because they feel they have some social justice that gives them the right to do more than pass up this product at the checkout stand. For the longest time, just a few months ago the cry was violence and it's effect on children. Now it's women, and how we are supposedly driving them all out. I would have a little bit more respect for these people if they would come out and say what they want to say.

 

[DigitalOp]

So it's OK for you to be selective about the things you complain about and not go to the trouble of finding every single example in existence, but not her? How do you know that the artist in question is picking and choosing in a way that you aren't? Have you scoured through her writings and forum posts to see what else she has criticized? Or did you just assume that this one forum post must be the total extent of whatever she's written on the subject just because someone took the trouble to link it on NeoGAF?

Either you complain about every single example of something that bothers you, or you're just as much a hypocrite by your own standard.

Or maybe you realize that no reasonable person should be expected to fulfill a quota of message board posts on a given subject just to be perceived as consistent in their views.

Im not you. If I see it, I say it. I OBVIOUSLY can't possibly find every offender. But when I find one, Im gonna label it an offender. Not pick and choose from what I like and don't like.

Reading is so fundamental dude. Seriously.

And BTW I read the entire thread on The Escapist too yo

So don't raise your opinion unless you plan on bringing up a complete historical background of the subject each time you raise it, especially if other people won't like it, got it.

What in the...? Where did I say this? Where the hell did I post this?

When did I say use the entire history as opinion backing?

Read.

Don't speak your negative opinion, just keep your mouth shut? Give me a break.

What is the cut off point? Where do you deign there are enough examples to talk about sexism in the gaming industry?

I don't agree with her opinion, and I think it's poorly formulated, but cries of "hypocrisy" and bringing up Borderlands shit is just stupid and has basically nothing to do with what was said. She didn't design the Borderlands characters. We don't know what her opinion on the subject is. She never anywhere indicated that she didn't notice it elsewhere (the contrary, in fact). She just lamented the state of women in the industry and used Dragon's Crown as an example (poorly). That's it. At no point does Borderlands or her opinions on her employer's designs come into play.

Have you even investigated her any further than the single board post this topic is about? If you have, please, share what her opinions on other games are. If not, you're kind of going against your own argument here.

Well sorry to say but we DO know her opinion on Borderlands

I'm sorry, but I didn't design, draw, or have anything to do with Moxxi at any point in my life. But if you're bringing her up, I'd say the main differences between her and something like the sorceress are that she's sexualized for a reason that makes sense, and that she actually resembles an actual person somewhat. I should clarify that it's not just a matter of the boobs themselves that makes it super weird, at least not for me. It's actually the tiny, featureless, expressionless face that lends the character no personality. It strips any character away and focuses solely on the sexual features, which is what creates the creepy factor. Even those sexy dwarves were miles better in that regard, just by having facial expressions.

So swept under the rug, Its Fine! Katimani is a pig though!!

she basically gave it a pass since the character was more "realistic". So how the fuck are we picking and choosing who we set aflame while disregarding all the other errors that build the bigger picture.

All I brought up was why the fuck is every damn game getting a pass except this one? Everyone's crying fucking "Sexism" and acts like this is the breaking point and this shit has been going on for EONS in the gaming industry.

You have to be pretty fucking dense to not realize all Im trying to say is broaden the goddamn argument and stop firing shots a one game. There are hundreds of games that are just as much if not MORE at fault. Why is this so hard to understand?

In my previous posts, I already clarified that she has nothing to do with Borderlands. You miss the point again.


What do I look like if Im arguing against hyper-violence in Video Games by pointing fingers at No More Heroes, while my employer is Epic Games? (despite me not working on Gears or Bulletstorm) If your answer is a hypocrite then apply it to the situation at hand.

 

[Winterfang]

All I brought up was why the fuck is every damn game getting a pass except this one?

Maybe it's because this example is so oversexualized that it actually repulses some people.

 

[Seik]

Also, this is the first time I've seen that character and holy shit, ahahahahahaha. That's actually something that made its way into a basically finished video game, fucking lol! Some juvenile delinquent kid in my 5th grade class used to draw girls that looked like that (only without the creepy blank, featureless samefaces and wizard hats), and I think he was actually better at it. I also think he's in jail now. This is amazing.

Wow, he really said that?

I mean, it takes a huge douchebag to say such things about other people's work. At least he could keep that shit for himself instead of saying this to a journalist.

How condescending and unprofessional. :/

 

[ReiGun]

1. Then shouldn't those people be supporting the games and developers doing what they apparently want. I have seen, literally dozens of threads, and blog posts and essays about how bad this industry is, especially in regard to this one game.
Almost nothing about any of the smaller indie games or developers who are doing things differently. Nothing about any progress being made, just daily reminders of how "juvenile, immature/hateful etc etc" games are today.

People want more variety. Fine, actually support what is out there. Don't give DC basically free publicity.

2. People are picking on games. No other mediums can i think of when you can ask...no, in some cases demand an artist change their style to not offend someone on a creative basis.

Look at this passage out of penny arcade's recent article about dragon crown.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/...t-like-men-the-disappointing-conversation-and



This is relatively tame "criticism" of the art style, and what is it basically saying. DC artstyle is wrong. it doesn't fit the sensibilities i want my child to see. Thus not only is it wrong, it is pushing the industry in a direction I don't want it to go.

That has always been the buzzwords of censorists. The idea that the art itself is offensive and is pushing a negative narrative for the viewer, often a child. it was the same argument used in early film codes, in the comicbook authority codes, the same logic used to banish and edit books. Offensive, wrong and why couldn't they have done this.

these type of people never censor because they dislike the practice. They do it because they feel they have some social justice that gives them the right to do more than pass up this product at the checkout stand. For the longest time, just a few months ago the cry was violence and it's effect on children. Now it's women, and how we are supposedly driving them all out. I would have a little bit more respect for these people if they would come out and say what they want to say.

1. You can do both. I can support those things that exemplify those I want to see and criticize those that exemplify the trends I dislike.

This is the problem with this discussion; it's far too focused on this one game. DC, on it's own, isn't a problem. The trend of sexualization in games is the problem, and the sorceress is just one example that is possibly a symptom of that problem.

2. I read a lot of comic books and participate in a lot of comic book discussions and I have definitely seen artists and even whole companies taken to task for the way female characters are drawn and sexualized. I've seen plenty of discussion on the treatment of women in music videos and song lyrics. Same with television and movies. Trust me, it happens everywhere with everything, and if you participate in the discussions long enough, you will definitely see demands made of artists.

That person in the quote is saying what they think and feel on the artstyle. Are they not allowed to find it objectionable in the same way another person can love and praise it? And can this person not express their wishes for the direction they want to see the game industry move in? The writer even says he thinks there is a place for DC's style.

It’s not depressing that the sort of art that started all this still gets made, and I think there is a place for that kind of character design. The depressing bit is that we can’t seem to have an intelligent discussion about it.

And he then goes on to state that just wants more people making different things; not an end to what's currently out there. I really do not see the problem.

 

[PdotMichael]

Maybe it's because this example is so oversexualized that it actually repulses some people.

It reminds me more of the Fuma Ueda story as everything he did was sexist after his joke about skirts.

Though the drama about DC is maybe even more ridiculous because it's a fucking niche game with most likely world wide sales way under 1 million copies. It's not a prime example of the output of the video games industry.

 

[DigitalOp]

Maybe it's because this example is so oversexualized that it actually repulses some people.

And thats perfectly fine. 100% of people don't have to like it. Thats the best part about free will.


But don't come to GAF talking about we need to stop sexism in games, take a shit on dragons crown, and then go boot up Dead or Alive or Bayonetta. That's the same shit were talking about here. (Not directed at you but as a hypothetical)

It may not be as extreme as its found in D.Crown but we're talking about the same shit. That's what I want people to understand.

 

[remnant]

1. You can do both. I can support those things that exemplify those I want to see and criticize those that exemplify the trends I dislike.

This is the problem with this discussion; it's far too focused on this one game. DC, on it's own, isn't a problem. The trend of sexualization in games is the problem, and the sorceress is just one example that is possibly a symptom of that problem.

2. I read a lot of comic books and participate in a lot of comic book discussions and I have definitely seen artists and even whole companies taken to task for the way female characters are drawn and sexualized. I've seen plenty of discussion on the treatment of women in music videos and song lyrics. Same with television and movies. Trust me, it happens everywhere with everything, and if you participate in the discussions long enough, you will definitely see demands made of artists.

That person in the quote is saying what they think and feel on the artstyle. Are they not allowed to find it objectionable in the same way another person can love and praise it? And can this person not express their wishes for the direction they want to see the game industry move in? The writer even says he thinks there is a place for DC's style.



And he then goes on to state that just wants more people making different things; not an end to what's currently out there. I really do not see the problem.

1. Yes we can definitely do both...but we don't. And the onus on action should be on the side that are demanding change i think. They are the side calling artists they don't like children

People who want to see change in this industry should be holding up examples and standards we set ourselves to. I never see that happen. More often than not, it is those defending the game industry who bring up those characters and games, as a defense that, no this industry isn't as horrible as you say it is.

2. They can say what they think and feel, but admit what you are saying. You are calling for censorship. If that person really believed in a free marketplace of ideas, where a variety of ideas and art styles can be expressed, than why attack DC for not making what he wanted them to make. He compared DC to a relic from the 70's...which should be totally fine in a free marketplace of ideas he supposedly wants. He even linked to what he wanted to see, damn what the actual art team wants.

In a free marketplace of ideas, which again the PA guys supposedly want, there will be inequality in terms of content. You solve this by making your own content or driving content you want to the forefront, so that it influences other artists and investors, something most of these people are again, not doing. A thousand threads about hating DC, not many about what they want to see.

Another sign of the censorists. They know what they don't want to see.

 

[hgarrett54]

The whole artstyle is rediculous and over the top. The fucking dwarf looks just as, if not sillier.


Stupid complaint. :/

 

[ReiGun]

1. Yes we can definitely do both...but we don't. And the onus on action should be on the side that are demanding change i think. They are the side calling artists they don't like children

People who want to see change in this industry should be holding up examples and standards we set ourselves to. I never see that happen. More often than not, it is those defending the game industry who bring up those characters and games, as a defense that, no this industry isn't as horrible as you say it is.

2. They can say what they think and feel, but admit what you are saying. You are calling for censorship. If that person really believed in a free marketplace of ideas, where a variety of ideas and art styles can be expressed, than why attack DC for not making what he wanted them to make. He compared DC to a relic from the 70's...which should be totally fine in a free marketplace of ideas he supposedly wants. He even linked to what he wanted to see, damn what the actual art team wants.

In a free marketplace of ideas, which again the PA guys supposedly want, there will be inequality in terms of content. You solve this by making your own content or driving content you want to the forefront, so that it influences other artists and investors, something most of these people are again, not doing. A thousand threads about hating DC, not many about what they want to see.

Another sign of the censorists. They know what they don't want to see.

1. I do both. I'm sure there are lots of other people who do both as well. There are always people ready to talk about Half-Life 2 or Beyond Good and Evil or Mirror's Edge or recently, Bishock Infinite as examples of the kinds of women they'd like to see more of in games. Then they are characters like Bayonetta who fit into and gray area that people go over with a fine tooth comb, so it's not like people aren't willing to at least give sexualized characters a chance.

The problem, again, is that the conversation atm has such tunnel vision on DC that there isn't much room to talk about anything else. We can thank Kotaku's shotty reporting for that.

2. But they are not calling for censorship. The PA guy says flat out that he just wants more games he can play with his daughter. That is the extent of his "demands." How does wanting more games that look like Krahulik's art equal wanting to eliminate sexualized designs or punish those who use them?

I would also say this goes against your idea that "censorists" don't hold up examples of what they want. He is telling you straight up the kind of art he'd like to see more of in games.

His calling the artstyle a relic of the 70's is, well, true. You may not like his language, but DC does invoke a very classic - albeit exaggerated - style of fantasy art. Indeed, that was probably intentional. The writer states that he doesn't find it particularly interesting anymore, but has no problems with it beyond that.

The guy isn't asking for an exact, 1:1 ratio of sexual and non-sexual games. He is simply asking for more choice, which is his right as a consumer in a free market.

 

[waxer]

Are women actually treated different on the slutty front. My perspective is guys get called players just as much as girls. Nowadays.

 

[ReiGun]

Are women actually treated different on the slutty front. My perspective is guys get called players just as much as girls. Nowadays.

It's generally considered more acceptable for guys to "sow their wild oats" as it were. In fact, it's pretty much expected of us. Women are shamed much more for being sexually open or fooling around or whatever you want to call.

 

[zoukka]

Are women actually treated different on the slutty front. My perspective is guys get called players just as much as girls. Nowadays.

A slut has a bit more negative tone than a player don't you think?

 

[Karsticles]

I don't think the Sorc had her air dash in the build I played. The elf's mid-air arrow shot propelled her into the air instead of hovering her just a bit, so you could just fly off the screen indefinitely as long as you kept shooting arrows. That's how early this build was.

But I've said too much already! We'll all get our hands on it this summer.

That's hilarious.

 

[waxer]

Depends on its use. If girl nastily says Im a player meaning I like to sleep around with multiple girls how is that any less than a slut which means the same thing. Also considering I just started internet dating in last few months I have actually had a lady ask how she knows Im not a player. Alarm bells lol Keep away from the fragile ones.

Seems no less nasty to me. Some people refer to going out and only seeing players at bars.

I guess it depends on where your from and how the term is used. I also guess it depends on how prudish you are towards sex. How many sexual partners a person has had doesnt worry me. Trust and reliability does. In that sense for me both terms mean the same thing. Although slut doesnt mean cheater as much as player does.

Way of dressing etc means nothing as dressing slutty doesnt exist at a beach where everyone wears minimal amounts of clothes.

 

[Lime]

Are women actually treated different on the slutty front. My perspective is guys get called players just as much as girls. Nowadays.

From September 2012:

http://nms.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/09/12/1461444812458271

The goal of this study is to determine how gamers’ reactions to male voices differ from reactions to female voices. The authors conducted an observational study with an experimental design to play in and record multiplayer matches (N = 245) of a video game. The researchers played against 1,660 unique gamers and broadcasted pre-recorded audio clips of either a man or a woman speaking. Gamers’ reactions were digitally recorded, capturing what was said and heard during the game. Independent coders were used to conduct a quantitative content analysis of game data. Findings indicate that, on average, the female voice received three times as many negative comments as the male voice or no voice. In addition, the female voice received more queries and more messages from other gamers than the male voice or no voice.

and from last year: