I'm talking about it in actual games, but more so in game development. Of course, misogyny exists at the corporate level in about every industry, but that's a different thread.
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Gearbox Artist trashes Dragons Crown art style
- Thread starter ArtHands
- Start date
I'm talking about it in actual games, but more so in game development. Of course, misogyny exists at the corporate level in about every industry, but that's a different thread.
The fact that you even have to point that out shows how off the mark people are, and how far we have to go to address some of the social problems in gaming. That our I'm having conversations with teenagers. One or the other. I hope the other.
Mithos
Member
Don't complain about others backyard when your own is filled with the same, begin there first?
Well, she argues that stuff like this keeps women from getting into the industry, while at the same time she works for a company that imo released more offending stuff than the DC sorceress.
Feels a little hypocritical to me.
And it seems as soon as they are in the industry, nothing really matters anymore. It seems she joined Gearbox in 2010. And in 2011 they released Duke Nukem Forever. If she is okay with that game - and I have to assume that she is, otherwise she would have looked for someone else to work for - she should be perfectly fine with this game too.
I mean she says that the sorceress is immature 5th grade style, then what exactly is Duke Nukem Forever? Baby style? I doubt the sorceress has a twin and both of them are going to suck the dick of the player.
Arc Christelle
Member
So many reasons I feel offended:
I actually like George's art (especially in Muramasa, playing through it, and hearing the characters voices hits the soul. Fudo Myoo and Raijin were my two favorites.
I like sexy big breasted women. Sorceress is right up my alley.
The nerve of another artist trashing somone else's art/character design, especially as well done as George's.
His studio was responsible for Aliens Colonial Marines, and Sega wasted all that money of them instead of promoting Anarchy Reigns in the US... I find it hilarious anyone from there has the nerve to show their face and discuss Game Design when you couldn't even think of a simple function for the Wii U. (Local Multiplayer, one uses gamepad the other uses TV screen. Done. Single Player, Menu is on Screen, keeping the TV from being cluttered. Done.)
To think anyone from that studio has the nerve to disrespect anybody is asinine. Borderlands is good, but not that damn good.
I'm kinda sad that my very first post is on a "controversal" topic.... I wanted my first day on GAF to be fun.... ;_;
I actually like George's art (especially in Muramasa, playing through it, and hearing the characters voices hits the soul. Fudo Myoo and Raijin were my two favorites.
I like sexy big breasted women. Sorceress is right up my alley.
The nerve of another artist trashing somone else's art/character design, especially as well done as George's.
His studio was responsible for Aliens Colonial Marines, and Sega wasted all that money of them instead of promoting Anarchy Reigns in the US... I find it hilarious anyone from there has the nerve to show their face and discuss Game Design when you couldn't even think of a simple function for the Wii U. (Local Multiplayer, one uses gamepad the other uses TV screen. Done. Single Player, Menu is on Screen, keeping the TV from being cluttered. Done.)
To think anyone from that studio has the nerve to disrespect anybody is asinine. Borderlands is good, but not that damn good.
I'm kinda sad that my very first post is on a "controversal" topic.... I wanted my first day on GAF to be fun.... ;_;
faceless007
Member
You've never worked for a company, have you?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I do, and he's right. You can't put down a company for doing something when the company that you earn your living from does the same things unless you want to look like a hypocrite.
It just shows she's willing to criticize something as long as what she says doesn't have any negative consequences on her.
faceless007
Member
I think discussions would be much better off if people dropped their juvenile knee-jerk rushes to find OMG HYPOCRISY where there is none every single time someone who actually works in the industry expresses an opinion, especially if the alleged hypocrisy is only tangentially related at best to the individual in question. It stifles debate and distracts from discussion of the actual topic at hand. I would prefer to discuss the actual opinion being represented and its relative merits. Tu quoque is like poor man's debate and by definition an ad hominem.
People are not their companies, nor do they speak for them, nor are they responsible for every single action their company does. You know how you when you watch a DVD commentary there's a message saying the opinions stated therein do not represent the parent company? It shouldn't take a very difficult thought process to realize that the same should apply by default to message board posts by individual non-PR employees. To disagree with this is to argue that employees should refrain from expressing their personal opinions -- even if their opinions are valid and agreed upon by many others -- because the same opinion magically becomes invalid if expressed under different circumstances. This is evaluating a position according to the person making it, not the position itself.
I worked for Activision. Should I have refrained from posting negative opinions about them and their business -- even though those same opinions were almost unanimously shared here on GAF -- during that time? I didn't; I posted them anyway. And you could not have told my criticisms apart from any other number of posts criticizing them. So why should I have shut up about them? I mean, that's what this really is -- it's not a counter-argument or a factual rebuttal, it's a thinly veiled "STFU."
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I'm not taking her opinion as an opinion made by Gearbox. Those DVD warnings are there so that people can't sue the parent company for an individuals opinion. But the
individual should still be judged on their
opinion.
If someone on the commentary for the Transformer movie starts talking about how all movies are these days are explosions with no plot I wouldn't automatically jump to thinking "Man everyone at Dreamworks hates how the movie industry is." but I would think "Man that guy is an asshole for slandering the movie industry when this movie has the same problems he's complaining about". Its perfectly reasonable to discount someones opinion when you see them involved with people who do the same things they're speaking out against.
You know, the whole "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "Those who live in glass houses
shouldn't throw stones." deal.
All she had to do was voice her opinion that
she thinks this is an issue all across the
industry and mention that Gearbox has the same issues of sexual pandering that DC has. I never once said that she shouldn't voice her opinion, I'm saying that if you're
going to speak out on something like this,
you should be calling it out on the whole and
pointing out that the company you work for
has the same issues. Otherwise it just looks like she's willing to make exceptions on her opinions as long as someone is willing to pay her.
Its like someone who works at Nike calling
out Reebok for using sweatshop labor. Or someone at Burger King trying to mock someone at McDonalds for serving food that makes people fat. Those are both perfectly valid issues to speak out against, but your opinion is null and void when you pretend like you're not involved with a company that also contributes to the problem.
And your Activision example isn't apt
because you were doing exactly what I'm saying this woman should do, call out the company she works for for its questionable practices.
Arc Christelle
Member
This post is money.
For a second I actually felt bad about my earlier post because I really did respond from impulse and didn't consider that I was engaging in ad-hominem. Thanks.
DNF impregnators.
Not done by Gearbox. What is your point?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Who needs facts when you can just jerk your knee up?
People still think this is unique to videogames?
Gearbox still released the game with scenes like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqzj9vW0Xls
Or are you saying that Gearbox shares no responsibility for DNF's content?
I am saying that no one at Gearbox is responsible for the concept art of DNF.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
What does an environmental artist who happens to be employed by Gearbox posting on a forum about something unrelated have to do with DNF? She's not speaking on behalf of the company.
This is so unfathomably stupid.
So you're just pedantic?
Read Zen_Arcade's post. He already said it better than I could
faceless007
Member
Well, for one, the Bible is full of hypocrisies, so you might not want to use it to counter alleged hypocrisy because that would be, well, hypocritical. For another, you're conflating individual hypocrisy with different members of an organization having different opinions, (precisely the thing you said you weren't doing in your first sentence). It would be one thing if she were directly responsible for the things you're talking about, but as has been pointed out numerous times, she isn't. So no, she does not have to account for them or apologize for them. I imagine there are probably some people who worked on the Transformers movies who don't much care for the film itself, but enjoyed the specific job they were given to do (whether in effects or sound or construction), and I don't see any reason to deny them their right to express that opinion just because they had a minor role to play in the making of it. Not everyone likes every single thing their company outputs, nor should they have to pretend they do.
(What the hell are you doing with your line breaks?)
It shouldn't be hard to understand why a person posting under their own name would not want to publicly criticize the actions of their employer. So by your logic, that means she should refrain from expressing her opinion at all, even if the opinion is valid and even if she genuinely disagrees with her employer on the subject (and might even be trying to change their actions behind the scenes).
If she included a sentence in her post saying "BTW, my company is guilty of this too," her preceding argument would not somehow suddenly become legitimate because that sentence does not modify or alter the original argument in any way; it's purely supplemental data. You're evaluating the merits of the position based on the irrelevant data (the person making it), not the merits of the position itself, which is the definition of ad hominem and a textbook logical fallacy.
How can the opinion be null and void if it's a perfectly valid issue to speak out against? You completely contradict yourself; either the argument is valid or not. That doesn't change depending on who makes it.
For the record, from her later post in the thread:
Whoa, hey. This is my personal opinion as an artist in general, and has nothing to do with the company I work at. I'm not Gearbox, I'm a single person with my own artistic style and sensibilities (much like the artist whose characters creeped me out) separate from my workplace, and I don't really see what that has to do with anything. There are plenty of places and threads where you can discuss ACM that are actually about Aliens.
If you don't like the work in my portfolio that I created, then by all means feel free to go to town and trash it all you want.
Edit: And for the record, I always speak on behalf of MYSELF, not my workplace. That user title was added by an Escapist mod or admin, and I'm not even able to edit it. If I could have, I would have done so ages ago because this is annoying.
and
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Dragon's Crown artstyle is fantastic to be honest, it is like a mix between concept art come to life and simplistic design mixed with tons of detail.
I really love the way it looks, and this lady from gearbox thinks that because of "tits" and "ass" it is suddenly the worst art design ever? It is an art style at over-exaggerates proportions, whatever they may be you would be able to tell by looking at the rest of it.
God damn it.
I really love the way it looks, and this lady from gearbox thinks that because of "tits" and "ass" it is suddenly the worst art design ever? It is an art style at over-exaggerates proportions, whatever they may be you would be able to tell by looking at the rest of it.
God damn it.
Wow, I had no idea the game was like this. Where was the media uproar over killing alien-impregnated, naked women while making jokes like "Why do they always take the hot ones?"
bigboss370
Member
really? I find it hard to see misogyny in actual games, because female characters are way more 'protected' than men. you won't see females in military shooters, female enemies in games like uncharted and infamous, and can't even go male vs. female in wrestling games.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
First off yes, someones personal actions should absolutely be taken into account when judging someones opinions. If you cant follow your own moral compass you sure as hell shouldn't expect anyone else to follow
with you.
Imagine I was with someone looking at a magazine rack and I picked up the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and they
immediately start asking me how I could look at filth like that. Then say I found out
that said person works as a letters editor for Maxim. I would immediately ask this person why they felt the need to insult me for
looking at women in swimsuits when they themselves are willing to make a living off a
company that has the same content. Its an unfair standard when you impose something
on others and don't recognize that you're getting paid by people who project the same issues you're against. It doesnt matter if she didn't directly design any of the characters, she's willing to get paid by the people who will put that into something she worked on and has no problem passing judgement on the people who made or enjoy it.
And how the hell does changing your
statement from "Oh man look how stupid
and sexist Dragons Crown looks." to "Great, another example of sexist imagery in video
games. I wish the video game industry was more accepting of different female characters." not alter its meaning? One is chastising a singular game and the other is
framing it into the larger problem that is
sexism in video games. It changes your whole argument.
Oh, and I love how you went from "When I worked for Activision I came here all the time and posted about things I thought
Activision was doing wrong. Do you think I should have shut up?" to "What? You want her to speak out about her own employer and call them out for doing things she doesn't like? Do you want her to get fired?" So it was a perfectly reasonable option for you to question your employer on an internet forum but all of the sudden its beyond comprehension that someone else should do the same thing?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
*applauds*
She also elaborates on why she dislikes that artwork, and it's not just the large breasts. She explains why she's okay with Moxxi and not the sorceress, and she even later admits she might have been too hasty in dismissing the artist. I disagree with her opinion of the artist, but she has said nothing remotely unreasonable. People should actually take a minute or two and read her posts before reacting with so much vitriol. It's pathetic. And the cries of hypocrisy and so unfounded it's laughable.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I don't think she said anything unreasonable either. Its not so much "God why don't you just shut up none of what you said makes any sense." as it is "Man, you have a lot of nerve pointing fingers as hard as you are when the people that sign your paychecks do the same things you're complaining about."
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
There's no "nerve" involved. My former employer dealt in various mobile services, some which were lame SMS dating services, others which were SMS horoscope services. I was a programmer there. If, while I was under their employ, I made a forum post somewhere saying how stupid horoscope and astrology is, does that make me a hypocrite? Of course not. It's completely ridiculous, a non-issue.
Karsticles
Member
You really don't think that saying Kamitani's art is worse in quality than a 5th graders is unreasonable? I think it's downright moronic.
Game. Set. Match.
This is all people are pointing out. Nobody's attacking the poor woman. We just want people to see the entire picture of this and stop pigionholing the debate to just one game.
And BTW, Shes a phenomenal artist, I checked out her website. Great drawings there.
everyone is entitled to an opinion. But if you publicly spoke that horoscope's and astrology were stupid and your employer specializes in those fields, doesnt that make you look a little questionable in your argument?
Can you fight sexism agaisnt women while working as a bouncer for a strip club?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That was a childish comment, obviously hyperbolic and I don't agree wit hit, but her later posts were far more reasonable. Did you read them?
Edit: Also, if we made 26-pages threads every time someone made an hyperbolic forum post, it would never end.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
No, but if you publicly spoke out against a rival horoscope and astrology service saying that somehow their specific horoscopes and astrology services were stupid and didn't
bother mentioning that you thought those things were stupid in general I would take you less seriously.
The hypocrisy comes when someone is
willing to pass judgement on someone else for doing the same thing they do. Or in this case passing judgement on a creator for doing something that the same people that employ her do.
There is a huge difference between "Those people are doing something stupid" and "We all are doing something stupid."
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I guess reading is too hard for some people.
Shaylyn said:
Shaylyn said:Whoa, hey. This is my personal opinion as an artist in general, and has nothing to do with the company I work at. I'm not Gearbox, I'm a single person with my own artistic style and sensibilities (much like the artist whose characters creeped me out) separate from my workplace [...]
If you don't like the work in my portfolio that I created, then by all means feel free to go to town and trash it all you want.
Edit: And for the record, I always speak on behalf of MYSELF, not my workplace.
Shaylyn said:I'm sorry, but I didn't design, draw, or have anything to do with Moxxi at any point in my life. But if you're bringing her up, I'd say the main differences between her and something like the sorceress are that she's sexualized for a reason that makes sense, and that she actually resembles an actual person somewhat. I should clarify that it's not just a matter of the boobs themselves that makes it super weird, at least not for me. It's actually the tiny, featureless, expressionless face that lends the character no personality. It strips any character away and focuses solely on the sexual features, which is what creates the creepy factor. Even those sexy dwarves were miles better in that regard, just by having facial expressions.
I hope that makes some sense.
Whatever, no point arguing, people will call her a hypocrite until they're blue in the face because "Moxxi has big boobs!!". *shrugs*
Karsticles
Member
I don't really care about her opinion, so no, I didn't read her subsequent posts. I'm glad we agree that she was unreasonable, though. I only really care about Kamitani's work.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Nevermind. This debate is past the point of pointless at this point.
NoirVisage
Banned
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Anyone else get a good laugh out of this? I got a good laugh out of this.
You've never complained about any practice that ever happened to be also done by a company you've worked for? I find that incredibly impossible to believe, unless you're unemployed.
Lol, so people think she shouldn't be allowed to comment because a company she has little control over does stuff too and she works for them not making the stuff she objects to.
Obviously the best way to change the industry is to... not participate at all if you don't already agree wtih it. Brilliant.
Obviously the best way to change the industry is to... not participate at all if you don't already agree wtih it. Brilliant.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Well, if you don't care about her opinion, why criticize it, is my point. If you do care enough to criticize it, at least be informed about what you're criticizing. (She apologized for that hyperbolic post, btw.)
Yes. And?
Yes. And?
Why would you laugh? Moxxi is the owner of a burlesque establishment. The other is a sorceress. It's the same reason this character makes sense as sexy and scantily clad, but this one or this one wouldn't.
NoirVisage
Banned
If you want to spin it like that, go ahead, I'd agree with your summation, but then we'd both be delusional.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Google Sorceress
googleplex
Member
Oh god! What the fuck man!
That actually made me feel a little nauseous. Who the fuck thought that was a good ideal to put in a game?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I think that was the point of that whole part, they just didn't really execute it properly
NoirVisage
Banned
Check and mate folks.
the "reading is too hard for some people" thing I've only seen once on gaf, I didn't even read your username and I just had a hunch. Thanks for humoring me.
Sorry, but when did she say gaming itself was stupid or sexist? Or did you not know that Gearbox does video games and the complaint is only part of how it is done? I don't see evidence of her working on the parts she objects to. Unike a strip club the entire point of video games is not problematic in regards to sexism. She works for a video game company. Video games can be done without sexiam and she's not contrinbuting to them being any more sexist.
yurinka
Member
The girl gamers I know don't have problems with Dragon's Crown or Bayonetta artstyle. They like Chun Li or Cammy. But they think Gearbox games like Brother in Arms or Borderlands are FPS rubish for males with generic artstyle.
One of them is offended with the last Tomb Raider because Lara appears as weak and someone to protect, something she don't like and prefer the strong Lara, doesn't matter. She didn't care if Lara had giant boobs, as she don't care if male characters are overmusculated or not.
One of them is offended with the last Tomb Raider because Lara appears as weak and someone to protect, something she don't like and prefer the strong Lara, doesn't matter. She didn't care if Lara had giant boobs, as she don't care if male characters are overmusculated or not.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Is there anything that actually establishes that Moxxi runs a burlesque show and not just a bar? I never played through her DLC, but I know in two she just ran a normal bar, I never saw a stage with performers.