Come on ,if there is one South Park chapter dedicated entirely to that, I think that its obvious that some people can see on that movie that and, so, debatable.
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George Lucas still offers the Star Wars films suggestions on the Jedi
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
Come on ,if there is one South Park chapter dedicated entirely to that, I think that its obvious that some people can see on that movie that and, so, debatable.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
I feel that if reigned in and but with a competent writer and direct he produces some good stuff, it's when left entirely to his own devices the problems and excess shows up. To his credit he didn't actually want to direct the prequel trilogy and wanted another renowned director like Spielberg to do it. Of course they all decline which may or not have a fair but to do with Lucas himself but if they had not the prequel trilogy probably would have at least been competently acted and directed which goes a long way.
Extra Sauce
Member
Funny thing is, I think the first act is the best part of The Force Awakens and that's almost a beat-for-beat retread of the original's.
Anakin in the original version having the same outfit as Obi-Wan argues against that interpretation.
Counterpoint - Anakin in the ROTJ might have chosen to wear those clothes in his ghost form because he was a native of Tatooine and we originally didn't know how long he lived in the planet before turning into Vader
ryutaro's mama
Member
Or maybe the critiques (which are in most cases opinions) are valid and don't align to your view on things so you call them "shitty".
It could be that too.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Nah. It has way more new elements than TFA. It plays similar, since Anakin backstory is meant to be like Luke (duh!), but other than that it feels way more fresh.
And I say this well aware TPM is trash, is one of the worst movies I saw in my life (the whole prequel trilogy). But let's not lie ourselves in TFA and how safe it plays and how is basically a reboot of the original ANH.
Oh are we doing this nonsense again?
Prequels aren't fresh at all.
Revisionist bullshit. A Star Wars film with a female lead and a black lead is somehow the safe option because the film isn't rubbish and is entertaining.
Well, you're the one who brought up this alternative. So unless you were leading me on, I don't know what the point was.
What I'm arguing is that Obi-Wan knows Luke is there, he doesn't 'find' him until the latter openly goes out to look for him. Qui-Gon is the only one who actually finds the Skywalker on Tatooine.
Same goes for the princess stuff. You could say both Anakin and Luke meet a princess, but that's super vague. One actively goes out to look for her, the other just ... well, meets her.
But if I started drawing parallels between TFA and ANH, picking out one from the beginning, I would end up with a droid carrying secrets plans, stumbling upon the main protagonist on a desert planet. That's quite specific actually, and basically just copied over.
That's an absolutely terrible argument, which really makes me pause whether I should even discuss this matter with you any further or just stop.
VincentMatts
Member
I have a lot of respect for Lucas. I think that he should still be involved in some capacity. The guy is a brilliant mind, why not at least have him on your side.
You dont have to take every single one of his ideas, but keeping him like an outcast just seems wrong to me. And i hated episodes 1, 2 and 3.
You dont have to take every single one of his ideas, but keeping him like an outcast just seems wrong to me. And i hated episodes 1, 2 and 3.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Based on the critical reviews of the PT compared to TFA, they're not.
AT ALL.
*Which for the usual "critics don't matter!" bullshit argument*
No, they didn't. Most of the overall narrative, themes, and characters from TFA have direct paralells or are sometimes blatant ripoffs of ANH.
Abrams has even said that they "very consciously tried to borrow familiar beats so the rest of the movie could hang on something that we knew was 'Star Wars'."
And I'm wondering is why they thought they needed to do that. Why did they feel it wouldn't be star wars without borrowing from ANH's story? I don't understand that line of thinking.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Actual footage from Rians office
Contrarians like that absolutely exist. I should have worded that as more of a possibility and not a blanket statement, so that's my fault and i'll own up to that bit, but I totally buy into the idea that there are some people who do that simply because they can.
You're ultimately missing my point.
My point was that if we boil Phantom Menace down to its basic plot points you can absolutely draw pretty direct lines to it being a rehash of A New Hope - just like people do with The Force Awakens. Which is why calling TFA a rehash of ANH is stupid and doing a disservice to the movie and makes me wonder if people who say this actually payed attention.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Safe in terms of plot...changing genres dosn't change the overall plot of a movie...
Because it was critically acclaimed and made 2 billion?
How is this difficult to understand? They were right to do it. In every conceivable way.
The plot isn't even the same. Scavenger and stormtrooper team up with bounty hunter to stop The Imperials... led by one of the bounty hunters son.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I have no Idea why you keep clinging to the PT as part of your argument. I made it very clear am speaking about people that have levelled critique at TFA.
That one movie.
PT is not part of what I have said.
AT ALL.
It would not have been necessary to make an OT remix/mea culpa if Lucas had not cocked up the prequels so badly. Those films did not leave anyone outside the hardcore fanbase excited about Star Wars.
Now that Abrams has reminded people of why they fell in love with Star Wars in the first place, Rian can break more new ground.
DoctorFling
Member
Eh? They never told him not to stop the emperor, they warned him that if he gave into hate he would be corrupted and turned evil himself. Luke rejecting murdering his father is probably the most important moment in the franchise.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
A lot of late Millennials and early Gen Zers who grew up watching the prequels first are now posting on forums.
It's literally Luke saying "I accept my anger, I will not let it control me." He's better than the Jedi because he accepts his emotions, and the Sith because he's not controlled by them.
You're right, shit is key to SW.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
DIDN'T I JUST SAY IT'S OFTEN MORE THAN ONE THING AT THE SAME TIME, RYU?
That it's not always some big dumb either/or?
Didn't I also say something about people not fucking reading?
Jesus Christ
You said plot. The plots are pretty different. Also the themes are fairly different. And so is the narrative in general, really.
It feels the same, but it's not that similar when you start breaking shit down beyond a very surface read. That it feels the same is deliberate. That it plays like a remix of the entire OT isn't an accident. But the idea that it's just a copy+paste with new characters doesn't wash.
Complaints about "ripoffs" are thin bullshit for the most part, I've found.
Had the star wars brand become that toxic? I know the PT trilogy was terrible and not wrll liked but I don't see how that would cause such little faith in the brand. They were probably going to make a billion dollars anyway off the name and circumstances alone.
As for critical acclaim, they could have made a movie critically acclaimed by writing a new story. People weren't basing their reviews on how close to the first movie this new one was. I don't see how either of what you mentioned means they had to do it the way they did. It seems like they just took the safest, laziest option.
I could be remembering incorrectly, but was the world not in star wars fever before anyone saw the movie? It could've just been my social circle but I thought it broke opening weekend box office records.
ryutaro's mama
Member
What is the point of using critiques in parenthesis and the descriptive shitty? The rest of the post is unquoted for a reason, Bob.
Had you written that post without that, I wouldn't have had a single issue with it, nor would I have commented.
Revenge of the Sith still made ~850m - they were a critical stink, but commercially - undisputedly profitable endeavors. They absolutely did NOT have to 'remind' people why they love Star Wars, as is evidenced by practically anything Star Wars on the Internet -- it's clear that people are enthusiastic and energised by even hearing other people talk about it. As is evidenced by the box office numbers for pretty much all the films, especially TFA. People love Star Wars and they are hungry for more.
Basically I agree with this:
It could have been so much more. I think it's perfectly valid to feel disappointed that they went in that direction. To suggest people are being contrarian just conjures the image of someone with their fingers in their ears unwilling to hear valid dissent.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Yeah, I loved that part when
Or when that ground team has to disabled Death Star Planet shields so X-Wing can attack it's weak point for massive damage. I never seen anything like it, in the original trilogy.
Yes, there was declining in interest in Star Wars as the prequel trilogy progressed. There has been and will always be a dedicated fanbase (just like Trek) - but SW has always been a blockbuster saga that had more casual acceptance - it's why you see these films do better than Trek, for example. The first goal of these new films was to not just preach to the converted.
It's a very lazy estimation to just call TFA an ANH ripoff, it is an intentional pastiche of the entire OT. Again, this approach would have been unnecessary if the prequels left people wanting more - they didn't.
TFA uses that pastiche approach to break some new ground - by movie's end, it sets things up to be completely different than anything we've seen yet.
ryutaro's mama
Member
The contemporary example I use is, Fast Five. Sequel, essentially a reboot to the franchise. Didn't re-tread the original to do it.
It ended up being one of the strongest outings in the entire series too.
Or remember how A New Hope was all about finding some old jedi on an island? Can't believe JJ ripped that off either.
Yes, the hype revolved around the return of familiar characters/actors and George Lucas' name not appearing in the creative credits.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Yeah that ending was great,
New grounds broken status confirmed.
Sounds exactly like the end of ANH to me
ryutaro's mama
Member
Okay, agree to disagree then. I found a lot of it rather repetitive but I understand if other people think otherwise. I will say I don't think the whole movie was a rip-off. I thought Kylo Ren was one of the most refreshing villains this franchise has had in a long time and was probably my stand-out character from the film.
Hahaha yeah its like saying "oh wow look someone gets trained to be a jedi in a star wars movie! Complete copy"
The story beats are completely different. What is the equivalent in ANH of the failed Trade Negotiations intro? Or what scene of ANH had a giant land battle? Or traveling to get support from a local politician of a marginalized race? When did QuiGon and others get captured or have to rescue someone from a planet?
I'm guessing it might be copypasted from fans of TFA who just got upset when it was pointed out how, scene by scene, it's basically the same as ANH. As a short recap:
Initial devestating imperial attack -- droid with plans finds outcast on desert planet -- later a character gets captured on death star and needs rescuing -- death star blows up planet to show its powerful -- heroes blow up death star.
None of that story structure really fits TPM, except they have a few dress elements in common like deserts, royalty, and jedi.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Because there are shitty critiques out there?
How do you not understand this?
What are you even doing right now
I mean, for example:
Look at this lazy horseshit right here.
And you wonder why I would possibly call this smug garbage out offhandedly.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Annnnd that's my point.
We CAN have a discussion on these topics without using terms like that to bully or shame others into capitulation with our opinions on what is or isn't shitty.
It is possible.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
You do know that Ren and Rey are two separate people, right?
Yeah, I blame my dyslexia.
Sorry, I'm not the one who said that TFA ending sets up, to some amazing new things, when is what it directly sets up is basically what I wrote.
It could play differently in the new movie? Yeah, but this is about TFA and what describes in that ending is keep retelling Luke's tale as Rey.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
What are you even talking about.
Who is being "bullied and shamed"
Why would that be your point in response to the conversation at the time you tried making that point? And how does that work as a response?
Are shitty critiques not supposed to be called out anymore?
YOU'RE ATTEMPTING TO DO IT RIGHT NOW.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
The prequel movies weren't critical stinks at the time. Aotc still has a fresh rating because it didn't have new reviews added which sunk the tomato scores of the other films.
The whole they were critical trash was a fairly new development.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
What's to apologize for?
ryutaro's mama
Member
But the destruction of the Starkiller base doesn't really matter to the First Order anymore. They succeeded in their goal; they annihilated the Republic. I mean, I guess without the Starkiller base they can't destroy anymore random star systems, but as far as their enemy goes, it doesn't exist. The Republic is gone, and currently, there isn't anything to take its place but the First Order. They are now in a situation to move into the vacuum left by the collapse of the Republic.
The only resistance they have (no pun intended), is the Resistance, which, by the end of The Force Awakens, are a few Rebels, and Poe's X-Wing Squadron. Against a First Order that may not have the numbers of the Galactic Empire, but they outnumber the Resistance by a significant margin. It's why they think that finding Luke is so important. Perhaps knowing that the hero who defeated the Emperor and Darth Vader is out there, possibly ready to repeat said victory has the First Order nervous, but Luke is only one man, and if they can squash his allies, he'll be "powerless."
I think the setup for the rest of the trilogy is a very desperate and weak Resistance, perhaps using guerrilla tactics to hurt the First Order and stop them from becoming the Empire again. With Luke seemingly uninterested in returning to the fight, the conflict is compelling to me. TFA set the stage for what this "Star War" is going to be about, and it feels like it's going to be different from the two previous trilogies.
It's unfortunate that the implications of the First Order using Starkiller Base to successfully destroy the Republic in one fell swoop go ignored. From a Star Wars history standpoint, the Resistance are in a worse position than the Rebellion was in the OT. At least in the OT, they had allies in government that were willing to aid in the fight against the Empire. In the sequel trilogy, their government aid is dead. Literally and figuratively. They're facing this threat with the closes on their backs, and the ships in their hanger.
Yes, and I've been trying to make a point that you would have to boil it down real, real hard to draw some convincing parallels based on your text with the crossed-out names. It's just not a good example. If you're arguing that it's possible, then it should be easy to come up with good ones, no?
I simply don't share the impression that you can make the same case out of TPM-ANH that you can with TFA-ANH. I consider the latter to be totally valid based on my own findings, but maybe it also works for TPM and I just haven't seen anything convincing yet.
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