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[Omnii-chan]

I was going to get a Rift, really excited for it until Facebook bought it out, still tried to stay optimistic. But then it made its own store, locked out Steam and now this kind of crap.

Vive is completely Valve supported. I'll get PS VR first to see if VR is for me, but Vive will be next, hopefully the price drops over time too because dayum.

 

[mugurumakensei]

It may not be, legal provisions like this end up having to be tested in court. It can be a real crapshoot. Some provisions have really been vetted, for example arbitration clauses are almost always enforceable, but other phraseology the company Settright in the past has failed. For example: early Internet contracts contains language saying that the company could change the contract terms at any time without notice. Closet is like that have failed in court before and so usually they have to be more carefully written to include a need for notice. My guess of the substance of effective this will be just to drive people who care about creating intellectual-property away from oculus.

Not really, developers have a separate agreement. This is purely for end-user created content like mods, asset packages, and the like. Even more, it's those things distributed through Oculus store and website. A dev who bakes into the application would allow for users to bypass Oculus's services.

 

[Servbot24]

I wasn't planning to get one, but if I was this would really turn me off of it.

 

[dumbo]

Only if you upload it to the Store for everyone else. "User Content uploaded through the Service" is what it says. They can't claim ownership of something that never leaves your computer.

That seems reasonable, but someone at Oculus created some absolutely insane definitions for "User Content" and "The services".

The definition of "The services" is this.

Oculus VR, LLC (“Oculus," "we," "us" or "our&#8221 is pleased to provide you access to, and use of physical goods, platform services, software, websites, applications, and content (collectively, the "Services&#8221.

(any software you access via Oculus home appears to be defined as a part of the 'Services').

The definition of 'User content'

Our Services may include interactive features and areas where you may submit, post, upload, publish, email, send or otherwise transmit content

So, if your software has an email button, or can transmit content over the network, or even save it to a USB drive, then the contents appear to fall into the category of "User Content".


I doubt they intended that, but that document is clearly absurd.

 

[Sky Chief]

Say I was using VR for collaborative work like video conferencing but more immersive and had a really good idea and wanted to get it patented. Could Oculus say that this patent was theirs?

 

[mugurumakensei]

Say I was using VR for collaborative work like video conferencing but more immersive and had a really good idea and wanted to get it patented. Could Oculus say that this patent was theirs?

No, your license as a dev supersedes oculus ToS. It explicitly states that in the ToS.

 

[UnrealEck]

But then it made its own store, locked out Steam and now this kind of crap.

Obviously they're going to make their own store. They're not going to want to put games on another and give them a substantial chunk of the revenue for it when they've got enough potential audience to build their own and have it succeed.
By 'locked out Steam' I guess you mean Vive is locked out of Oculus Home. But that's not really the case. Vive can be supported if there's and agreement between HTC/Valve and Oculus. I think it has something to do with SDKs.

Vive is completely Valve supported.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but Rift is supported by Valve on SteamVR too.
If you mean Valve's own future games, I seriously doubt they're not going to have proper support for Rift.

I was going to get a Rift

Why not get a Vive then? Why a PSVR which isn't even out until October and is likely going to pale in comparison overall?

 

[SRTtoZ]

I know plenty of TOS' have garbage stuff like this in them, but this is pretty terrible for a device that you want the community to use to create to grow VR.

 

[tokkun]

Tons of services have terms like this. It's what makes it legal for them to store your data on their servers, create thumbnail versions of images, and so forth.

 

[Durante]

By 'locked out Steam' I guess you mean Vive is locked out of Oculus Home. But that's not really the case. Vive can be supported if there's and agreement between HTC/Valve and Oculus. I think it has something to do with SDKs.

I don't know where this way of describing the situation came from. It's absurd in how it seems to portray the problem being on Valve's end, or at least equally on their end and at Oculus.
In truth, their handling of the situation is hardly equal:

1) You can use any VR API to develop for and publish on Steam.
2) You can use SteamVR/OpenVR to target any VR device.

Conversely,

1) You can only use the Oculus API to develop for the Oculus store.
2) You are explicitly prohibited by the EULA from targeting any non-Oculus device using the Oculus API.

I read the article, and it all seems like pretty standard stuff, nothing to worry about at all.
Windows, and the consoles reports back much the same, its just how tech is now. They need telemetry.

Well, my Windows doesn't send anything, and I don't use the most recent consoles. I don't need or want my tech to be like that.

 

[Manoko]

I remember when Palmer Luckey was very concerned about other HMDs "poisoning the well" for VR.

I think Oculus is doing just that, I hope most of the VR enthusiast will support the Vive instead.

 

[Hyoukokun]

So. Before everyone goes jumping on the Vive train, take a look at this clause from the Steam Subscriber Agreement:

6. USER GENERATED CONTENT

A. General Provisions

"User Generated Content" means any content you make available to other users through your use of multi-user features of Steam, or to Valve or its affiliates through your use of the Content and Services or otherwise.

You grant Valve and its affiliates the worldwide, non-exclusive, right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, transcode, translate, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, in connection with the operation and promotion of the Steam site. This license is granted to Valve for the entire duration of the intellectual property rights and may be terminated if Valve is in breach of the license and has not cured such breach within fourteen (14) days from receiving notice from you sent to the attention of the Valve Legal Department at the applicable Valve address noted on this Privacy Policy page. The termination of said license does not affect the rights of any sub-licensees pursuant to any sub-license granted by Valve prior to termination of the license. Valve is the sole owner of the derivative works created by Valve from your Content, and is therefore entitled to grant licenses on these derivative works. If you use Valve cloud storage, you grant us a license to store your information as part of that service. Valve may place limits on the amount of storage you may use.

This seems fundamentally the same as the Oculus terms around content to me, with a few more specifics.

 

[Fried Food]

so the moral of the story is that everything is terrible?

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Well, my Windows doesn't send anything, and I don't use the most recent consoles. I don't need or want my tech to be like that.

Yeah, I can't stand this idea that since others do it it's ok. We shouldn't be ok with this crap no matter who is doing it. I finished the house of cards episode last night that dealt with this kind of stuff. Maybe more people should watch that. The moment people stop throwing fits over stuff like this is the moment that corporations/government know that they can start taking another step forward invading our privacy.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Isn't this pretty common for a social media ToS? Similar language is a given with Facebook and Instagram, yeah?

The problem is that thr oculus is not, and never had been, a social networking platform. Facebook bought oculus not as a conglomerate looking to enter VR, but as a social networking organization looking to adapt new, completely unrelated disruptive technology for social interactions.

VR is more than that. It's about changing human-device interfacing. It allows for more immersive experiences in gaming and media consumption and social interactions, sure. But it allows for better virtual conferencing in corporate businesses. It allows for more realistic 3D imaging for engineering and medical fields and other sciences. It enhances spacial teaching and learning in education. It allows for the green screening of actual architectural and civil engineering designs.

Part of the reason why Oculus was originally open platform is because of how much of a game changer it could be. Facebook's approach ever since the day they acquired Oculus completely fails to recognize the potential for VR and reduces the Oculus Rift to a social networking gimmick.

 

[Speevy]

Is it like the Neogaf rights thing, but with VR?

 

[raven777]

edit: wrong thread

 

[Dazza]

More fuel to add onto Notch's fire.
It may not be, especially in some parts of the world, like the European Union. Terms of Service are just an agreement, they can not supersede laws of the land.

Yet.....

 

[plagiarize]

so the moral of the story is that everything is terrible?

The moral of the story is that legalese sounds scary but generally isn't anything like the worst case scenario you can read from it.

You know that Valve know all the steam games you have right and how often you play them and for how long? Because of course they do. So what?

 

[Raist]

C. By registering an account at NeoGAF.com and participating (including but not limited to submitting posts or private messages on NeoGAF.com), you hereby grant NeoGAF LLC and our licensees, distributors, agents, representatives and other authorized users, a perpetual, non-exclusive, irrevocable, fully-paid, royalty-free, sub-licensable and transferable (in whole or part) worldwide license under all copyrights, trademarks, patents, trade secrets, privacy and publicity rights and other intellectual property rights you own or control to use, reproduce, transmit, display, exhibit, distribute, index, comment on, modify, create derivative works based upon, perform and otherwise exploit the messages posted or private messages sent on NeoGAF.com, in whole or in part, in all media formats and channels now known or hereafter devised, for any and all purposes including entertainment, news, advertising, promotional, marketing, publicity, trade or commercial purposes, all without further notice to you, with or without attribution, and without the requirement of any permission from or payment to you or to any other person or entity.

 

[old manatee]

Good thing there are like 9 other options.

 

[low-G]

I remember when Palmer Luckey was very concerned about other HMDs "poisoning the well" for VR.

I think Oculus is doing just that, I hope most of the VR enthusiast will support the Vive instead.

We think the sir doth protest too much.

 

[DeviantBoi]

They'll change and apologize once the mainstream media comes out with articles with headlines like "Don't Buy the Oculus Rift".

 

[~Cross~]

so the moral of the story is that everything is terrible?

The moral of the story is that people that aren't versed in legalese shouldn't infer much in ToS.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Isn't this pretty common for a social media ToS? Similar language is a given with Facebook and Instagram, yeah?

Occlus isnt a Social media device.

 

[Head.spawn]

That feeling when you read the ToS and EULA for the first time.

 

[tamaster92]

I feel like this is a EULA made for a service applied to a hardware product which doesn't quite work.

If I made a game as a hobbyist I would have no Dev license with oculus itself but if I side loaded it they have rights to use stuff? Who knows.

The people saying that it's legalise and likely not as it seems are probably right. Besides local law always overrides any of this. (See steam and refunds in the EU before they added refunding)

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Seems like common legalese speak.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

That feeling when you read the ToS and EULA for the first time.

LOL!

 

[Iced_Eagle]

The article is a bet sensationalist IMO.

That first part, and quote in OP is basically copy/paste what Facebook (the main website), Twitter, Instagram and almost any other social site use.

Steam has a very similar one saying that Valve owns User Generated Content:

You grant Valve and its affiliates the worldwide, non-exclusive, right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, transcode, translate, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, in connection with the operation and promotion of the Steam site. This license is granted to Valve for the entire duration of the intellectual property rights and may be terminated if Valve is in breach of the license and has not cured such breach within fourteen (14) days from receiving notice from you sent to the attention of the Valve Legal Department at the applicable Valve address noted on this Privacy Policy page. The termination of said license does not affect the rights of any sub-licensees pursuant to any sub-license granted by Valve prior to termination of the license. Valve is the sole owner of the derivative works created by Valve from your Content, and is therefore entitled to grant licenses on these derivative works. If you use Valve cloud storage, you grant us a license to store your information as part of that service. Valve may place limits on the amount of storage you may use.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer so maybe one is worse than the other.

The other part which is covered in the article is the telemetry/BI Oculus collects. The one thing I wish Oculus would make here is to anonymize the data and also make promotional materials opt-out like Steam. Most of the items they call out I don't mind Oculus having, but I don't want them to be able to tie it all back to me as an individual if I don't consent.

As an example, I don't care if Oculus collects telemetry based on the games I look at on their store, as well as knowing which games I use from their story. After all, that's how things like recommendations work. "You recently looked at X, so we think you might like Y" or "Because you play X, you might also like Y".

Being able to know your dimensions and "physical movements" when you use a VR headset also seem fine, again as long as they would anonymize the data. It would actually be very helpful for a company to have quantifiable evidence on things like IPD ranges most used by people, average distance the user is from a sensor, how often it loses tracking, etc. Those are things Oculus can use to tune the product with updates (the first Rift firmware update went out last night I believe) and also take into account for future products.

 

[Zeyphersan]

C. By registering an account at NeoGAF.com and participating (including but not limited to submitting posts or private messages on NeoGAF.com), you hereby grant NeoGAF LLC and our licensees, distributors, agents, representatives and other authorized users, a perpetual, non-exclusive, irrevocable, fully-paid, royalty-free, sub-licensable and transferable (in whole or part) worldwide license under all copyrights, trademarks, patents, trade secrets, privacy and publicity rights and other intellectual property rights you own or control to use, reproduce, transmit, display, exhibit, distribute, index, comment on, modify, create derivative works based upon, perform and otherwise exploit the messages posted or private messages sent on NeoGAF.com, in whole or in part, in all media formats and channels now known or hereafter devised, for any and all purposes including entertainment, news, advertising, promotional, marketing, publicity, trade or commercial purposes, all without further notice to you, with or without attribution, and without the requirement of any permission from or payment to you or to any other person or entity.

Everyone better stop posting RIGHT NOW

 

[Raist]

Ooooh that sounds worrying.

Holy poop that's fucked up! I hope people won't let them get away with that crap!

Good, good. People are mad. 445 replies already.

Oh hey, what's this in the bottom left corner. Hmmmm...

You sonuvabitch.

 

[Stumpokapow]

The article highlights vague, abuseable ToS terms and the now-standard American anti-lawsuit provision (thanks SCOTUS). I see a lot troubling there but...

Oculus (and basically Facebook) owns creative content

Okay, very concerning

Basically, if you create something using the device, Oculus can’t own it, but the company can use it—and they don’t have to pay you for for using it. Oculus can use it even if you don’t agree with its use.

Didn't you [the authors] just say they own it? Now you're saying they can't own it?

 

[Syriel]

The moral of the story is that people that aren't versed in legalese shouldn't infer much in ToS.

Seems like common legalese speak.

The article is a bet sensationalist IMO.

These three get it.

And maybe Gizmodo should have its writers consult with actual lawyers before running articles that talk about legal consequences.

This is a story that was obviously written with little to no research.

It's either that, or Gizmodo just called out the entire Gawker network, including the Kotaku staff, as being "super shady" because they all have incredibly similar wording in the Gawker TOS that applies to all the sites.

 

[Krejlooc]

Gaf - > internet - > gaf.


The cycle is always true.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1203090

that gaf page comes from reddit

 

[MUnited83]

Obviously they're going to make their own store. They're not going to want to put games on another and give them a substantial chunk of the revenue for it when they've got enough potential audience to build their own and have it succeed.
By 'locked out Steam' I guess you mean Vive is locked out of Oculus Home. But that's not really the case. Vive can be supported if there's and agreement between HTC/Valve and Oculus. I think it has something to do with SDKs.

Well, there's no need for any agreements. Oculus could make their store OpenVR compatible. That's on them to fix and allow for.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Occlus isnt a Social media device.

Oculus does have a store front though which is where you would have to post the user generated content in order for the ToS to have effect. Unsurprisingly, Valve which also has a storefront that distributes use generated content ( Steam Workshop ) has the same language in their ToS.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I was stearing clear of Rift as soon as Facebook was involved, because of Facebook in general.

It was Vive and PSVR (which I am going with first) the very second Facebook bought into it.

 

[The Boat]

Quick people, let's jump to more conclusions about something neither most of us or the writer of the article understand!

 

[Apt101]

This is what happens when a company like Facebook gets to enforce business-driven decisions over an acquisition. Pretty much the basic foundations one would expect such a company to cook into an overall product strategy. It will be interesting to see if they're capable of adjusting and offering a product without such strings attached, or rather push harder down this road in the months ahead.

 

[Melter]

Quick people, let's jump to more conclusions about something neither most of us or the writer of the article understand!

im with you!

 

[00ich]

I feel like this is a EULA made for a service applied to a hardware product which doesn't quite work.

This.

Those terms of service are quite standard, but they define "access to, and use of physical goods" as part of the services. That's quite messed up.

Imagine a keyboard or notebook with these ToS. Every text you typed would belong to the manufacturer.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Not to sound cynical, but this doesn't seem too different or drastic from a lot of TOS. Maybe I'm wrong and this is especially diabolical.

 

[Samaritan]

Looking like my decision to go with a Vive is getting better by the minute.

 

[flyinpiranha]

Not to sound cynical, but this doesn't seem too different or drastic from a lot of TOS. Maybe I'm wrong and this is especially diabolical.

It's not, but fuck Facebook, and hating the Rift is all the rage right now.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

Huh. I feel like that seems like overstepping some serious boundaries.

Vive future, ahoy!

 

[mugurumakensei]

Looking like my decision to go with a Vive is getting better by the minute.

I sure hope you don't download games through Steam or Origin. Otherwise, the same ToS apply.

 

[Teppic]

I wasn't planning to get one, but if I was this would really turn me off of it.

Same for me.

Efdit: Thought this meant ssomething else.

 

[Aztechnology]

OP needs to be changed. There's way too much misunderstanding here and it's manufacturing outrage when we don't have a fully clear picture. It seems these standards are practiced pretty widely across the industry, so until we have someone with a law background fully explain everything it's doing a disservice to the community here.

 

[davepoobond]

people should only draw dicks all of the time.