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[Hugare]

The term RPG is just a mess. Always have been.

RPGs are, for me, games where you role play. So games where you create a character or control the character's personality (Geralt, Shepard and etc.)

Bloodborne? RPG. Sekiro? Nope

So in my definition, even older FF games arent RPGs. You are role playing in FF VII as much as you are role playing in Uncharted.

The idea that gameplay dictates if a game is an RPG or not is just ridiculous.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Agreed. FF16 is barely a rpg.

 

[samoilaaa]

So Planescape Torment is not RPG? You play premade character of which you can change only starting attributes.

for the majority its one of the best rpgs ever made but for me it isnt because its build in such a way that it forces you to use a type of playstyle , the story is one of the best but when it comes to gameplay its nothing special

 

[hyperbertha]

Its interesting how quickly the honeymoon ends with many (most?) modern games these days.
FFXVI, GOWR, SFVI, and even TOTK is getting shit on everywhere.
Im guessing Starfield is up next.

Games simply arent as good as they used to be - I blame the talent making them.

Ff16's praise was most definitely a honeymoon imo. It's not going to be looked down favorably. It had bad combat, but all it had to do was nail the story to be liked forever, but it just ended up a shallow mess with half baked characters.

 

[AV]

The term RPG is just a mess. Always have been.

RPGs are, for me, games where you role play. So games where you create a character or control the character's personality (Geralt, Shepard and etc.)

Bloodborne? RPG. Sekiro? Nope

So in my definition, even older FF games arent RPGs. You are role playing in FF VII as much as you are role playing in Uncharted.

The idea that gameplay dictates if a game is an RPG or not is just ridiculous.

Age old discussion isn't it. For me an RPG is where your stats are the primary dictator in your performance. This is pretty obvious in JRPGs like Pokémon where you'll get absolutely flattened vs. enemies stronger than you and there's literally nothing you can do about it.

Games like God of War have RPG elements because there's stats, but ultimately you win or lose based on your skill in the game. You can be severely underlevelled and take zero damage and still win. Same goes for Bloodborne, no idea about FF16 because I haven't played it.

 

[FunkMiller]

I haven't picked up FF16 as yet, and given a lot of what's being said in this thread, I may not do so for a while to come. I want an FF game to be an RPG. I never liked the Devil May Cry games much, and it sounds like this game steers closer to that than older FFs.

 

[Hugare]

Age old discussion isn't it. For me an RPG is where your stats are the primary dictator in your performance. This is pretty obvious in JRPGs like Pokémon where you'll get absolutely flattened vs. enemies stronger than you and there's literally nothing you can do about it.

Games like God of War have RPG elements because there's stats, but ultimately you win or lose based on your skill in the game. You can be severely underlevelled and take zero damage and still win. Same goes for Bloodborne, no idea about FF16 because I haven't played it.

I see your point. But even in D&D, stats arent your primary dictator, but luck.

Even in Pokemon, its not set in stone how the battle is going to play out due to the diversity in attack types or, again, luck. Maybe your pokemon misses its attacks and you lose. Maybe your adversary uses sleep in your Pokemon, or hypnosis and etc.

The term RPG is too broad, so everyone has their own definition, and consensus is impossible. But I try to stick to its most literal definition: role play.

 

[AV]

I see your point. But even in D&D, stats arent your primary dictator, but luck.

Even in Pokemon, its not set in stone how the battle is going to play out due to the diversity in attack types or, again, luck. Maybe your pokemon misses its attacks and you lose. Maybe your adversary uses sleep in your Pokemon, or hypnosis and etc.

The term RPG is too broad, so everyone has their own definition, and consensus is impossible. But I try to stick to its most literal definition: role play.

I'd say that stats definitely override luck in Pokémon. Yeah, you could miss every attack, but it's statistically almost impossible if you're a level 99 fighting a level 10. Hell, in many RPGs your luck is a stat. I don't play D&D so can't comment there.

I think I just don't like "game where you play a role" because as you say it's way too broad. It's like "adventure" games, how many games do we not classify as adventure games that contain adventure? Is Marcus Fenix's crusade in Gears of War not an adventure? Doesn't Mario literally go on an odyssey yet calling that game an adventure game rather than a platformer feel super strange?

Questions without answers I guess.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

I haven't picked up FF16 as yet, and given a lot of what's being said in this thread, I may not do so for a while to come. I want an FF game to be an RPG. I never liked the Devil May Cry games much, and it sounds like this game steers closer to that than older FFs.

It does, but it's still pretty good all things considered.

 

[Roufianos]

It's true, though God of War's loot, stat and menu systems are all trash. It would have been better off being a pure action game.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

I see your point. But even in D&D, stats arent your primary dictator, but luck.

Even in Pokemon, its not set in stone how the battle is going to play out due to the diversity in attack types or, again, luck. Maybe your pokemon misses its attacks and you lose. Maybe your adversary uses sleep in your Pokemon, or hypnosis and etc.

The term RPG is too broad, so everyone has their own definition, and consensus is impossible. But I try to stick to its most literal definition: role play.

Luck/chance is related in D&D but stats etc also factor into this. IE higher stat results in greater chance, etc isn't that right? It's been decades since I played.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Luck/chance is related in D&D but stats etc also factor into this. IE higher stat results in greater chance, etc isn't that right? It's been decades since I played.

While these definitely play a role, i'd say a form of tactical awareness is still the decisive factor. What ultimately separates a tabletop rpg from other board games is your ability to do just about anything your mind can come up with within those limiters of stats and luck.

"You see a dragon what do you do?"
"I try to seduce the dragon"
"Uh, ok, roll the dice"
"...its one"
"The dragon is deeply offended by your puny attempts at seduction and immediatly attacks your party"

In a way, thats probably what makes it so hard to make a rpg in videogame form. How do you account for every action a players mind can come up with? How do you react appropriately as to keep the game engaging?

The amount of ways the game can react to and account to the player's general creativity, and how the game keeps itself engaging while recognizing that player agency, are probably the two decisive factors of a rpg.

In the last two Zelda games for example, although you can go crazy with the game mechanics, your interaction with npcs is still very basic, and although you can solve problems in a multitude of ways, the consequences of those choices in the story and world are pretty much the same all the time. That doesn't make it much of a rpg.

 

[nowhat]

Ultima is an RPG. Pathfinder/Divinity. God Of War and Final Fantasy 16 are not.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing (I'm a huge Ultima fan - now that the System Shock remake is out, where's my Ultima Underworld remake goddammit?), but when it comes to FF XVI, it's so ironic that (mild plot spoiler, you'll learn this quite early on in the game) the main villain is "Ultima". Like, I get it Square Enix, no more turn-based for you. But you're kind of rubbing it in aren't you?

 

[Silent Viper]

Damn at Title of thread

I agree FF 16 hardly a rpg game. UBISOFT open world games have more rpg elements than FF 16.

It's straight dmc style stylish action game with FF skin on it and there's nothing wrong in it. I enjoyed new combat and epic boss fights alot.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The problem with turn based RPG is that current generations dont like to spend time waiting for "combat" and get bored easier...FF16 gameplay suits better for these consumers.

Square Enix doesn't even need to make their jRPGs turn-based. They just need build variety, party wide customization, class system, and combat elements such as phys/mag resistances as well as elemental weaknesses to exploit. Furthermore use up buildable resources to fire off big attacks. I think in this game you just wait for abilities to come off cooldown?

I really think it's 50/50 between Turn based and action combat people want.

Any mainline Dragon Quest that comes out people are pretty happy with.

 

[Raven117]

It’s a dumb distinction in this context

 

[cash_longfellow]

Yeaaaa okay. Y’all just be talking to talk about the RPG thing at this point.

 

[nowhat]

Yeaaaa okay. Y’all just be talking to talk about the RPG thing at this point.

...if the concept of "I just leveled up, my stats are marginally better than before" constitutes an RPG, then pretty much every game nowadays is an RPG.

(Just saw the end credits to FFXVI, no, it's not an RPG. An enjoyable ride though, at times, but by $EIKON, the side content sucks. Like, how basic fetch quest can you get?)

 

[SeraphJan]

You want real RPG? Go play Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous

 

[TheGrat1]

And god of war is a worse game for it.
Missing the older titles pacing and creative ways to switch up encounters and puzzles.

The idea of...Kratos as a character shouldnt be in a situation where he is "underleveled" for a common grunt. Ruins god of war as a concept. I blame the modern era high brows that think RPG equates to higher level gaming or something.

As for final fantasy 16...I'd argue the original kingdom hearts is a better example of a game that did rpg with live action combat in "square style".

I'd be more excited about ff16 if It had that combat but with a...rpg storytelling and pacing style like that. Seems to me ff16 wont have say...a traverse town or something like that. Does it?

While it definitely seems incongruent with game lore (although the devs do say certain things re done for gameplay reasons that do not really make sense, like Kratos straining to open a treasure chest) the leveling system definitely gave more options to combat as well as making combat a lot harder, especially early on. GoW 2018 is harder than OG Demon's Souls and I have only played it on Give Me A Challenge mode.

I still prefer the classic gameplay but it is always there if I want to go back to it. I enjoyed the new style as well.

 

[HazukiSensei]

While it definitely seems incongruent with game lore (although the devs do say certain things re done for gameplay reasons that do not really make sense, like Kratos straining to open a treasure chest) the leveling system definitely gave more options to combat as well as making combat a lot harder, especially early on. GoW 2018 is harder than OG Demon's Souls and I have only played it on Give Me A Challenge mode.

I still prefer the classic gameplay but it is always there if I want to go back to it. I enjoyed the new style as well.

Yeah but theres a difference between hard in souls style, and hard in ninja gaiden, god of war titan mode, or devil may crtb3 hard.

Those latter games test your mechanical skill, whereas the others involve leveling, tactic, and strategy patterns.

Sometimes I rather have something that tests my mechanical skill. Alot of casuals can use strats ti get passed something and level thibgs properly. But that dude thats slick with the inputs and cab pull off disguatibg combinations? Thats someone who kbows their way around a controller abd practiced in a lab. I want that gameplay back. Souls doesnt bring that out of people or require that, which is why its popular amongst westerners and reached heights that dmc or nibja gaiden could not. It doesnt require much mechanically from players like me that are used to intricate fightibg game mechanics.

 

[Games of Today]

GOW:R should have been the same as the ff 16 (as action and scale)

Everyone thought it was going to be. It went relatively the same direction as Uncharted 4 compared to 2 and 3.

Everyone likes God of War for the insane boss fights. Not 5 minute intimate cutscenes.

 

[HazukiSensei]

Some of you have short memories. The very first God of War game had 6 things you could upgrade with XP in the form of orbs and most people wouldn't even manage to upgrade everything without going out of their way to make sure they got the maximum amount of orbs. You could be "underlevelled" in the first game if you skipped too much, but like GoW2018 and Ragnarok, it didn't make the game impossible at all.

Not nearly to same degree, and it was pretty automatic that you would acquire red orbs in some way shape or form. And they didnt slow down the pacing and direction of the game in order to make it more of an rpg...

 

[hyperbertha]

Yeah but theres a difference between hard in souls style, and hard in ninja gaiden, god of war titan mode, or devil may crtb3 hard.

Those latter games test your mechanical skill, whereas the others involve leveling, tactic, and strategy patterns.

Sometimes I rather have something that tests my mechanical skill. Alot of casuals can use strats ti get passed something and level thibgs properly. But that dude thats slick with the inputs and cab pull off disguatibg combinations? Thats someone who kbows their way around a controller abd practiced in a lab. I want that gameplay back. Souls doesnt bring that out of people or require that, which is why its popular amongst westerners and reached heights that dmc or nibja gaiden could not. It doesnt require much mechanically from players like me that are used to intricate fightibg game mechanics.

Dmc harder than souls? Maybe in the highest difficulty level but no game has so far tested me as mechanically as sekiro. Default difficulty dmc is a joke in comparison.

 

[HazukiSensei]

Dmc harder than souls? Maybe in the highest difficulty level but no game has so far tested me as mechanically as sekiro. Default difficulty dmc is a joke in comparison.

Because default difficulty in souls games is just a "hard mode" but you cabt make it harder.

And I dont just mean, "oh i beat this boss and all I had to do is spam triangle" i mean which games, to get to the heighest ceiling skill at. Require the most mechanical understanding from the player? Dmc/bayonetta/ ninja gaiden does.

As in, Id say the kid thats making insane combo videos likely has more general mechanical understanding on a controller than the kid who beat dark souls without being touched.

The latter is understanding just the frames and pacing of that particular souls title. A skill that wont necessarily translate to all games. The kid pulling the intricate combos that he made up off the fly through training has mechanical skill that translates to everything...fighters/action games etc

 

[sobaka770]

God of War has a lot of RPG elements but they all kinda suck imo.
You can choose gear, special abilities, weapon upgrades etc. but I never felt like I was getting better. There are no crazy builds allowed, everything is neutered.

Yes, you can have a tankier build or a different special attack but quick attack is still going to get you through 99.9% of content and there are no fun or broken builds to experiment with really.
If anything, I wish it scaled the RPG elements down and just let me enjoy the action instead of upgrading my axe 9 times.

Granted FF16 is worse but either go full FF7 Remake with meaningful build choices or strip it all out. Middle-ground of GoW was boring, like filling in a excel spreadsheet.

 

[hyperbertha]

Because default difficulty in souls games is just a "hard mode" but you cabt make it harder.

And I dont just mean, "oh i beat this boss and all I had to do is spam triangle" i mean which games, to get to the heighest ceiling skill at. Require the most mechanical understanding from the player? Dmc/bayonetta/ ninja gaiden does.

As in, Id say the kid thats making insane combo videos likely has more general mechanical understanding on a controller than the kid who beat dark souls without being touched.

The latter is understanding just the frames and pacing of that particular souls title. A skill that wont necessarily translate to all games. The kid pulling the intricate combos that he made up off the fly through training has mechanical skill that translates to everything...fighters/action games etc

What good is all the insane combos that's not necessary to beat the games? I don't think mechanical understanding translates to any other game. The combos are vastly different title to title.

 

[Phase]

There's a rule in this industry. When something has success for too long you have to change it and fuck it up.

 

[HazukiSensei]

What good is all the insane combos that's not necessary to beat the games? I don't think mechanical understanding translates to any other game. The combos are vastly different title to title.

Lol wow. Yeah see thats the mindset that im scared of. Because that's the sub-game. You dont need to find certain cool armor or weapons in elden ring or fight certain bosses to beat any souls gake eother, but we do because its the sub game. I didnt NEED bloodhound step in elden ring, but I found it because it was way more fun.


And Nah man. I have more confidence that someone who knows how to pull off those type of combinations at a high level, will have a competent understanding of mechanics overall.

Like someone who never played DMC but played souls, will probably fumble around with dmc combinations. Whereas a hood dmc player, will have an easy time grasping the mechanivs of a souls game.

Souls mechanics are pretty simplistic.

Hell, eveN when I got pretty fucking good with taki/ivy in soul caliber IV, i found it improved my mechanical skill in beat em ups and other fighters. Shit works like that sometimes. Everything is practice.

 

[hyperbertha]

Lol wow. Yeah see thats the mindset that im scared of. Because that's the sub-game. You dont need to find certain cool armor or weapons in elden ring or fight certain bosses to beat any souls gake eother, but we do because its the sub game. I didnt NEED bloodhound step in elden ring, but I found it because it was way more fun.


And Nah man. I have more confidence that someone who knows how to pull off those type of combinations at a high level, will have a competent understanding of mechanics overall.

Like someone who never played DMC but played souls, will probably fumble around with dmc combinations. Whereas a hood dmc player, will have an easy time grasping the mechanivs of a souls game.

Souls mechanics are pretty simplistic.

Hell, eveN when I got pretty fucking good with taki/ivy in soul caliber IV, i found it improved my mechanical skill in beat em ups and other fighters. Shit works like that sometimes. Everything is practice.

It's a difference in mindset mostly. When a game forces you to perform your best, that's the fun part. In souls as you explore, you'll run into some secret bosses that you don't even know are unimportant to progress, so you beat them. Some people may find enjoyment in mechanically testing themselves in a way the game doesn't mandate, but that's not for me personally. It's just like speedrunning. It's a different kind of optional challenge.

 

[cash_longfellow]

...if the concept of "I just leveled up, my stats are marginally better than before" constitutes an RPG, then pretty much every game nowadays is an RPG.

(Just saw the end credits to FFXVI, no, it's not an RPG. An enjoyable ride though, at times, but by $EIKON, the side content sucks. Like, how basic fetch quest can you get?)

The topic is the OP saying God of War is more rpg than FF16. It is absolutely not. I know FF16 is less rpg and more action, but it is still by definition, an rpg. Action rpg, but still an rpg.

 

[March Climber]

The term RPG is just a mess. Always have been.

RPGs are, for me, games where you role play. So games where you create a character or control the character's personality (Geralt, Shepard and etc.)

Isn't stepping into the shoes of a pre-existing protagonist also technically considered playing a role? You're playing through the lives of Clive or Kratos and you're guiding them to their destination. You're controlling their minute-to-minute actions on a predetermined board of play, thus assuming the role.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

"RPG" is such a vague term that doesn't really mean anything anymore after the past 10-15 years of most genres adding staples to them. God of War 2018 definitely doesn't strike me as being RPG - it's an action or adventure game with RPG elements. FF XVI is pretty much the same.

 

[Hugare]

Isn't stepping into the shoes of a pre-existing protagonist also technically considered playing a role? You're playing through the lives of Clive or Kratos and you're guiding them to their destination. You're controlling their minute-to-minute actions on a predetermined board of play, thus assuming the role.

More like you're being guided by them

By your definition, all games are RPG then

What I meant is, in games where the main character is basically your avatar and you can mold its personality, then you're really role playing

Shepard can be an asshole or a saint depending of your choices. Old Bioware games are what I would consider as RPGs. Or Hogwarts Legacy, for example.

The Witcher 3 would be RPG light, 'cause you can kinda mold Geralt's personality to your choosing, but only slightly

 

[hyperbertha]

More like you're being guided by them

By your definition, all games are RPG then

What I meant is, in games where the main character is basically your avatar and you can mold its personality, then you're really role playing

Shepard can be an asshole or a saint depending of your choices. Old Bioware games are what I would consider as RPGs. Or Hogwarts Legacy, for example.

The Witcher 2 would be RPG light, 'cause you can kinda mold Geralt's personality to your choosing, but only slightly

Deus ex, fable are the two great examples for RPGs. Modern games rarely are, except for the isometric ones.

 

[Murdok]

following a few steps of DmC?