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[Doomtrain]

The problem with turn based RPG is that current generations dont like to spend time waiting for "combat" and get bored easier...FF16 gameplay suits better for these consumers.

I keep hearing this -- sometimes from Square themselves -- and I don't know where it's coming from. FFXIV, which despite being an MMO is stuffed full of classic RPG mechanics and minutiae, is raking in money hand over fist. I just did a very quick google search for Bravely Default 2's sales, and it looks like it had cracked a million sales as of the end of 2021. Looks like Octopath Traveler 2 did the same. The budgets for those games would have absolutely paled in comparison to FFXVI's budget, which makes it quite possible that they actually netted more money overall. Pokemon sells gangbusters. Mobile gacha RPG's basically print money for very little development work. So, genuinely, where are people getting this from?

 

[rofif]

Unpopular opinion: FF was never much of an RPG.

Sure, you used to have more options but that the end of day you character still ends up the same.
For me, in an RPG, your choices have huge impacts at how you character plays. Say you either a mage or a soldier at the end. Both God of War and FF do not really have that.

Good point. Souls is an rpg and mass effect is an rpg. I obviously put mass effect up there as real rpg though.
Every game got stats. It’s the choices. Not only dialogues too since syberia got a lot of it and it’s not an rpg.

 

[Guilty_AI]

The problem with turn based RPG is that current generations dont like to spend time waiting for "combat" and get bored easier...FF16 gameplay suits better for these consumers.

i'll give 2 months for this statement to age like milk

 

[rofif]

I keep hearing this -- sometimes from Square themselves -- and I don't know where it's coming from. FFXIV, which despite being an MMO is stuffed full of classic RPG mechanics and minutiae, is raking in money hand over fist. I just did a very quick google search for Bravely Default 2's sales, and it looks like it had cracked a million sales as of the end of 2021. Looks like Octopath Traveler 2 did the same. The budgets for those games would have absolutely paled in comparison to FFXVI's budget, which makes it quite possible that they actually netted more money overall. Pokemon sells gangbusters. Mobile gacha RPG's basically print money for very little development work. So, genuinely, where are people getting this from?

For me, full on turn based rpg is a result of a limitation of tech early games were using. These are really just big story games and combat was not something they could do well. So turn based was invented.

It never died because it’s thoughtful and tactical. I like how ff7r handled it. But I hate full on turn based

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Ok. So?

let's say FF16 is not even an RPG, et say its an action-adventure game. And so what?

Can it just not be measured on the value of whatever experience it gives? Why must we wanna shoe horn games into some kinda box?

 

[rkofan87]

gow 2018 and gowr has to much puzzle shit for me i like ff16 way more.

 

[Katatonic]

And FF16 is a better game.

 

[lh032]

I keep hearing this -- sometimes from Square themselves -- and I don't know where it's coming from. FFXIV, which despite being an MMO is stuffed full of classic RPG mechanics and minutiae, is raking in money hand over fist. I just did a very quick google search for Bravely Default 2's sales, and it looks like it had cracked a million sales as of the end of 2021. Looks like Octopath Traveler 2 did the same. The budgets for those games would have absolutely paled in comparison to FFXVI's budget, which makes it quite possible that they actually netted more money overall. Pokemon sells gangbusters. Mobile gacha RPG's basically print money for very little development work. So, genuinely, where are people getting this from?

AAA turn based game is extremely risky.
Thats why Octo exist. Smaller budget, less risk.
I think Pokemon sells because of the branding though, i always think that the game a chore to play.

Just take a look at the new dragon quest rumor, I have a feeling it wont be your classic turn based RPG game.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Hogwarts legacy is also more of an rpg.

I'd also say that you could argue that final fantasy xvi is a better god of war game than God of war 2018 and 2022.

 

[64bitmodels]

It should have been an off shoot and not a numbered mainline game.
Now it will just go down as the worst FF.

god shut up
youre not convincing anyone with your rampant FFXVI hate.

i'll give 2 months for this statement to age like milk

it's already aged. Pokemon and Persona wouldn't be the best selling JRPG franchises if this statement were actually true to begin with.
People like turn based combat systems. So much so there are like 20 different JRPG franchises utilizing turn based mechanics besides FF. Turn based isn't this fading nonexistent style of combat like people suggest it is

 

[RoboFu]

god shut up
youre not convincing anyone with your rampant FFXVI hate.

it's already aged. Pokemon and Persona wouldn't be the best selling JRPG franchises if this statement were actually true to begin with.
People like turn based combat systems. So much so there are like 20 different JRPG franchises utilizing turn based mechanics besides FF. Turn based isn't this fading nonexistent style of combat like people suggest it is

It’s not a FF not really…

 

[Zekra Dezivad]

Well, FF16 is a better god of war than gow reboot series. The last santa monica games just lack epicness and scale of their predecessors, while F1 nails the whole divine scale of the boss fights. Square Enix just taught everyone how to handle epicness.

 

[DragoonKain]

It had more RPG elements, that’s for sure. As does Horizon. I’m playing FFXVI right now and I don’t like it much at all, I find it incredibly boring. God of War I adored. I had so much excellent side content and puzzle solving, and the combat is of course excellent.

 

[kiphalfton]

As if that's a good thing...

 

[HazukiSensei]

Literally most crpgs out there, old and new. Mass Effect and The Witcher 3 are basically action adventure games with some branching paths, The Witcher 3 in particular fails completely at being anything like a RPG, with some of the shittiest character building and itemization i've seen.

Character building in what sense? Tge witcher 3's main priority isnt combat, so what is it?

Witcher 3 does what people needed to do mod overhauls for bethesda games.

Funny enough, They typically called those mods "hardcore rpg overhauls"

Leveling means something, meaning no scaling, the idea of progression of character and stats being meaningful is the definition of an rpg. We had to mod monsters walking around the world at a higher level than you in bethesda games, witcher 3 already does this.

Quest quality, and leveled quests with varied rewards. No procedural quest systems, all hand written. Not just about fighting for every quest like FROM games. Or radiant fetch quests like skyrim or fallout 4.

Leveled items and varied loot. Check. Has that aswell. Branching paths and choices? Check. Has that.

Uncharted is more of an action adventure lol to gears of war being a third person shooter.

Is witcher 3 like uncharted? No. So its definately more of an rpg than MOST games that release. Unless you consider being able to create a character and fuck around freely and rpg.

And fromsoft games are simple action games in comparison to the witcher also. All you do is fight and there is level scaling.

 

[Silver Wattle]

it's a large part of why I've not been interested in this nor the previous game.

 

[Chechack]

Ff 16 tried to chase the mass market appeal thats why they emulated like GOW single player action.

FF 17 they will try follow Elden Ring success and make it Final Ring Souls like.

Bookmark this and call me nostradamus in the future.

 

[Labolas]

IGN coming in hot with the click-bait

 

[Guilty_AI]

Character building in what sense? Tge witcher 3's main priority isnt combat, so what is it?

You know, THE THING YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO IN RPGS. Are you Thief? A wizard? Some chaotic-evil orc? All that shit.
That isn't even just about combat, its supposed to affect how you engage with the story too.

Witcher 3 does what people needed to do mod overhauls for bethesda games.

You speak like bethesda games are some sort of shining example of great rpgs.
Honestly, CDPR games also need to be modded to feel anything like a decent RPG too.

Funny enough, They typically called those mods "hardcore rpg overhauls"

Yes, like The Witcher 3's

Mod unavailable

This mod is not currently available

www.nexusmods.com

Leveling means something, meaning no scaling, the idea of progression of character and stats being meaningful is the definition of an rpg. We had to mod monsters walking around the world at a higher level than you in bethesda games, witcher 3 already does this.

No, levels is the most basic monkey understanding of what an RPG is. And lots of game developers still implement that concept poorly, like how in The Witcher 3 you can have Ghouls stronger than Higher Vampires walking around, its utter nonsense.

Quest quality, and leveled quests with varied rewards. No procedural quest systems, all hand written. Not just about fighting for every quest like FROM games. Or radiant fetch quests like skyrim or fallout 4.

Quest in The Witcher 3 are poorly designed. Theres a quest for example where there's supposedly a werewolf in some cave terrorizing the villagers... but guess what, it doesn't appear UNTIL YOU ACTIVATE THE QUEST. For a good rpg, that kind of thing is a no-go, you should've been able to meet him even without activating the quest, or what, that wereworlf wasn't supposed to exist in the world until you made contact with that villager? Despite the fact the cave is still clearly inhabitated when you go there? Some "weird coincidence" that he just so happened to not be there? Its so dumb.
Thankfully they've improved that aspect in CP2077.

Leveled items and varied loot. Check. Has that aswell. Branching paths and choices? Check. Has that.

Legendary unique swords with far lower damage than common ones? Check.
Rare and Legendary loot that rains down on you like ghouls in a battlefield? Check.
Loot that is completely meaningless outside of damage stats so you're constantly just switching for higher numbers without thought? Check.
Tons of nonsensical stuff like being able to loot villagers house's with no consequence whatsoever? Check.
Choices that are almost strictly restricted to dialogue branches, aka no implicit choices? Check.
Broken economy? Check.
Broken perks? Check.

Uncharted is more of an action adventure lol to gears of war being a third person shooter.

Its a different kind of action adventure game.

Is witcher 3 like uncharted? No. So its definately more of an rpg than MOST games that release. Unless you consider being able to create a character and fuck around freely and rpg.

And fromsoft games are simple action games in comparison to the witcher also. All you do is fight and there is level scaling.

Its far far less of a RPG than all proper rpgs that released to this date.
Baldurs gate, Divinity OS, Kenshi, Disco Elysium, Pillars of Eternity, Gothic, Clasic Fallout, Daggerfall, Shadowrun, Mount&Blade... the list goes on.

 

[TheKremlinBossMan]

Going by the logic in this thread the Souls Borne Ring, Witcher and Mass Effect series are also not truly RPGs. So what does constitute an RPG? Pathfinder Path of the Righteous, Baldurs Gate III, Age of Wonders 4, and Divinity 2. I would assume you all would consider those as actual RPGs but the thing is those games don't get much coverage and generally don't do well with casual gaming audiences.

Having beaten both Ragnarok and Final Fantasy XVI, FF is at the same level of RPG as Ragnarok. For better or worse. Runic Abilities = Eikon Powers, Both have minimal armor upgrades and a secret weapon. Both are story driven and lead you to an inevitable end. FFXVI is a much better game than Ragnarok, but it is once again being judged for what it is not instead of what it is.

The conversation around this game is miserable you would think it was Redfall or something. Shit.

 

[Otre]

Ive played every Final Fantasy game. I dont care what type of game it is as long its not Dirge of Cerberus. If its a good Devil May Cry, thats fine.

 

[JimmyRustler]

With that line of thinking any character driven rpg isnt an rpg lol only open world western rpg's apply. Jrpg's dont.

Even the witcher, which has branching paths,choices, leveled enemies with no level scaling. Wouldnt qualify lol

Well, yeah, you can say it like that.
And yes, I don’t think Witcher 3 was much of an RPG either.

 

[Raven117]

Going by the logic in this thread the Souls Borne Ring, Witcher and Mass Effect series are also not truly RPGs. So what does constitute an RPG? Pathfinder Path of the Righteous, Baldurs Gate III, Age of Wonders 4, and Divinity 2. I would assume you all would consider those as actual RPGs but the thing is those games don't get much coverage and generally don't do well with casual gaming audiences.

Having beaten both Ragnarok and Final Fantasy XVI, FF is at the same level of RPG as Ragnarok. For better or worse. Runic Abilities = Eikon Powers, Both have minimal armor upgrades and a secret weapon. Both are story driven and lead you to an inevitable end. FFXVI is a much better game than Ragnarok, but it is once again being judged for what it is not instead of what it is.

The conversation around this game is miserable you would think it was Redfall or something. Shit.

Meh, pay then no mind. Just angry nerds who didn’t get the toy they preferred and want to gatekeep by bashing the game that it isn’t.

 

[Raven117]

Ff 16 tried to chase the mass market appeal thats why they emulated like GOW single player action.

FF 17 they will try follow Elden Ring success and make it Final Ring Souls like.

Bookmark this and call me nostradamus in the future.

Rather them chase a Witcher. They don’t do the environmental story telling thing

 

[MasterDerico]

That's why Gow is worse and FF is better nowdays, imo.

 

[Optimus Lime]

Neither of them are RPGs. They are action games with stats to satisfy the zoomer desire for Skinner box loot.

Ultima is an RPG. Pathfinder/Divinity. God Of War and Final Fantasy 16 are not.

 

[ergem]

The Eikonic abilities is where I mix and match and put most decision process. The gears are there just to collect.

I still find myself grinding not for the stats or gears but for the ability points to upgrade my Eikonic abilities.

Still an rpg for that matter in my book.

 

[KimDongHwan]

I don't like this notion some people are throwing that FF was never an RPG, I mean you can all have a concept of what an RPG is or not, but I think we all have a sense of what JRPGs back then had in common and it is not whats happening on FF16. In another thread I mentioned how the weapons here did absolute nothing, they are just a number and someone called out how all FFs were like that. Maybe is just my nostalgia lenses, but I clearly remember how in FFX you could customize your weapons to have special traits or elemental type according to what part of the world you were in, I remember having this weapon that would apply petrify and since it was a physical weapon it would one shot enemies when they were vulnerable, this may sound "simple" for the hardcore western RPG guys but for me back then it was a really fun mechanic.

Disclaimer: I am really enjoying FF16 but I can see how this can spiral Square Enix to double down on making FF into not being a JRPG.

 

[KimDongHwan]

Also there is a cascading effect with the lack of RPG elements, like you can almost always warranty having the latest weapon the moment they are available which then makes any further loot irrelevant, since loot becomes irrelevant, nothing on the world map (treasure, killing monsters, finding those light blue things) makes any sense at all since those items are most probably worthless.

So at that moment I started to wonder why is that element in the game at all, I thought maybe it would have been much cooler if they just gave you the weapons as part of the story (giving them some backstory for instance) since they are already gated as part of the story anyways.

 

[Rea]

Worst RPG in terms of RPG games. But as an linear action game, FF16 is brilliant.

 

[Spaceman292]

Unpopular opinion: FF was never much of an RPG.

Sure, you used to have more options but that the end of day you character still ends up the same.
For me, in an RPG, your choices have huge impacts at how you character plays. Say you either a mage or a soldier at the end. Both God of War and FF do not really have that.

Agreed. I'm not sure what everyone's problem is. In FF16 you level up as you fight enemies and you gain more moves... just like in every other FF game.

 

[KimDongHwan]

Agreed. I'm not sure what everyone's problem is. In FF16 you level up as you fight enemies and you gain more moves... just like in every other FF game.

Not to be disrespectful, but this sounds like the most oversimplification of a gaming series you could have made. Similar to saying "Metal Gear Survive you have weapons and you kill enemies... just like any other Metal Gear game".

 

[FoxMcChief]

They’re about the same. Action Adventure is more or less what I’d label both. Just like a Souls game. I think labeling either an RPG is pretty inaccurate.

 

[StereoVsn]

Ok. So?

let's say FF16 is not even an RPG, et say its an action-adventure game. And so what?

Can it just not be measured on the value of whatever experience it gives? Why must we wanna shoe horn games into some kinda box?

Because it's a game 16 in a series that has 15 JRPGs before it (with 2 MMOs being more JRPG then this game). Wellz technically more then 15 since we had X-2 and 3 XIII games.

Is it surprising that some folks aren't happy with that result? Not talking about combat here but overall approach to RPG mechanics or lack thereof.

 

[Freeman76]

100%. Anyone who didnt click I Agree does t know what an RPG is

 

[Hudo]

One of the many reasons why I think the new God of War games are crap.

 

[Spaceman292]

Not to be disrespectful, but this sounds like the most oversimplification of a gaming series you could have made. Similar to saying "Metal Gear Survive you have weapons and you kill enemies... just like any other Metal Gear game".

My point is that all FF games are so varied that that's the only way you can really describe them. They aren't all hardcore RPGs. So people saying that this isn't a true FF game are just being arbitrary.

 

[GymWolf]

No doubt about it, i literally never loss more than 30 sec on the rpg part of ff16.

 

[Esppiral]

I am 20h in FFXVI and it is more a hack and slash than a jrpg.

 

[hyperbertha]

i'll give 2 months for this statement to age like milk

What do you mean?

 

[hyperbertha]

At least god of war combat was challenging and enjoyable. Ff 16 just has very shallow setpieces and nothing else. Bland predictable story, and easy af combat.

 

[samoilaaa]

I'm not even sure what an RPG is these days. Either everything is or nothing is.

just play baldurs gate 3 to see what a real rpg looks like not this action adventure bullshit

an rpg must have the following mechanics
- character creation , its an rpg so i should be able to make my own character , in games like god of war or ff16 ur not roleplaying you are just put in the shoes of a premade character and watch how his story unfolds
- character progression , leveling , new skills , attributes that allow me to make different builds , in god of war u will always use the same weapons/style
- the freedom to choose how to aproach a mission , either stealth , combat or speech , how can i roleplay if ur forcing me to play only one way
- choice and consequence , the story is evolving based on my decisions , im roleplaying right ? , im not just in the skin of some premade character so the world and npcs react to what i do

 

[Guilty_AI]

What do you mean?

Actually forget that, it is already outdated with games like Persona and Pokemon being fairly mainstream.

 

[AV]

The idea of...Kratos as a character shouldnt be in a situation where he is "underleveled" for a common grunt. Ruins god of war as a concept. I blame the modern era high brows that think RPG equates to higher level gaming or something.

Some of you have short memories. The very first God of War game had 6 things you could upgrade with XP in the form of orbs and most people wouldn't even manage to upgrade everything without going out of their way to make sure they got the maximum amount of orbs. You could be "underlevelled" in the first game if you skipped too much, but like GoW2018 and Ragnarok, it didn't make the game impossible at all.

 

[hyperbertha]

Actually forget that, it is already outdated with games like Persona and Pokemon being fairly mainstream.

I wouldn't call persona mainstream at all. Pokemon? The games? No way. The anime is way more popular.

 

[AV]

I wouldn't call persona mainstream at all. Pokemon? The games? No way. The anime is way more popular.

Are you saying Pokémon games aren't mainstream..?

 

[Guilty_AI]

I wouldn't call persona mainstream at all. Pokemon? The games? No way. The anime is way more popular.

Didn't the last pokemon game sold like 20 million copies in 6 weeks? And it was a fairly shitty entry at that.

 

[kuncol02]

just play baldurs gate 3 to see what a real rpg looks like not this action adventure bullshit

an rpg must have the following mechanics
- character creation , its an rpg so i should be able to make my own character , in games like god of war or ff16 ur not roleplaying you are just put in the shoes of a premade character and watch how his story unfolds
- character progression , leveling , new skills , attributes that allow me to make different builds , in god of war u will always use the same weapons/style
- the freedom to choose how to aproach a mission , either stealth , combat or speech , how can i roleplay if ur forcing me to play only one way
- choice and consequence , the story is evolving based on my decisions , im roleplaying right ? , im not just in the skin of some premade character so the world and npcs react to what i do

So Planescape Torment is not RPG? You play premade character of which you can change only starting attributes.

 

[Naked Lunch]

Its interesting how quickly the honeymoon ends with many (most?) modern games these days.
FFXVI, GOWR, SFVI, and even TOTK is getting shit on everywhere.
Im guessing Starfield is up next.

Games simply arent as good as they used to be - I blame the talent making them.

 

[Kiya's Guard]

Can I be the bastard that says "almost every game is an rpg because you are playing as somebody and follow a script, like an actor. Tabletop rpgs are more about do whatever you want, videogames are not"

For ff16, i still have at least a year of waiting, but I hope its not the same combat as 15 (or even worse). Haven't played kingdom hearts ever, but I know its the combat evolution that ff should have followed years ago