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GoT Spoilers (just finished Season 3) Red Wedding episode - can it be topped?

HoodWinked

Member
nothing will top the red wedding because it came when you let your guard down. its almost as if your innocence was lost at that moment and every subsequent episode of GoT you'd kind of always would expect it.

there was one at season 6 but i feel like there's no way to not have been spoiled on that one.
 

xevis

Banned
You found
Hardhome, Hold the Door, Battle of the Bastards and Loot Train boring?

Yes. I've absorbed so much media with zombies and dragons and other high fantasy nonsense that I really find it quite dull. GoT is at its best, imo anyway, when it focuses on politics, intrigue and character drama. Jamie has had a fantastic arc, slowly growing a conscience. Likewise Tyrion (at least, until he went across the Narrow Sea) whose struggle with family rejection was fascinating to watch because he was clearly so much his father's son. Other great characters include the Hound, Brienne, Stannis and Arya (for the most part, until her go-nowhere Braavos arc and sudden turn into a ninja). I've also immensely enjoyed Lena Headey as Cersei though her character has struggled to find direction since ~S4. There's a lot to love in GoT but it's not big battles or giants or dragons or icewalkers.
 

True Fire

Member
Yes. I've absorbed so much media with zombies and dragons and other high fantasy nonsense that I really find it quite dull. GoT is at its best, imo anyway, when it focuses on politics, intrigue and character drama. Jamie has had a fantastic arc, slowly growing a conscience. Likewise Tyrion (at least, until he went across the Narrow Sea) whose struggle with family rejection was fascinating to watch because he was clearly so much his father's son. Other great characters include the Hound, Brienne, Stannis and Arya (for the most part, until her go-nowhere Braavos arc and sudden turn into a ninja). I've also immensely enjoyed Lena Headey as Cersei though her character has struggled to find direction since ~S4. There's a lot to love in GoT but it's not big battles or giants or dragons or icewalkers.

This is true, but Game of Thrones has always had an endgame, and things like the dragons and the White Walkers add a level of urgency and irony to all of the political machinations that most shows don’t have. The magic is what makes Game of Thrones stand out.
 

Neece

Member
Yes. I've absorbed so much media with zombies and dragons and other high fantasy nonsense that I really find it quite dull. GoT is at its best, imo anyway, when it focuses on politics, intrigue and character drama. Jamie has had a fantastic arc, slowly growing a conscience. Likewise Tyrion (at least, until he went across the Narrow Sea) whose struggle with family rejection was fascinating to watch because he was clearly so much his father's son. Other great characters include the Hound, Brienne, Stannis and Arya (for the most part, until her go-nowhere Braavos arc and sudden turn into a ninja). I've also immensely enjoyed Lena Headey as Cersei though her character has struggled to find direction since ~S4. There's a lot to love in GoT but it's not big battles or giants or dragons or icewalkers.

I agree with a lot of this, but disagree about Cersei. She’s one of the few characters that has maintained momentum as a character through all seven seasons. I don’t think she has struggled in direction for seasons 5-7 at all, unlike Tyrion and Jaimie to a lesser extent. She has steadily moved forward unlike some others that just seem to tread water. I see clear arcs for her in seasons 5, 6, and 7 that are logical and in character, and have some good themes regarding her hunger for power and the collateral damage to her life
(season 5 - losing her dignity and hair, season 6 - losing her children, season 7 - losing the only person that ever truly loved her).
A touch of madness, fury, cunning, incompetence, love, fear, and wit has kept her going strong into the later seasons, even giving her some of the best character moments of the entire series.

She’s also one of the few whose dialogue has remained relatively strong even after the series lost GRRM’s writing.
 

A-V-B

Member
These all top it

Season 4 Ep's 9 & 10
Season 5 Ep 8
Season 6 Ep's 9 & 10
Season 7 Ep's 4 & 7

I wish S410 topped it. It could've if they followed the book. Martin created a masterpiece with that climax. Using Kill Bill as a reference for how it was changed,
imagine The Bride going after Bill because he didn't accept her and rebuked her in front of the other assassins throughout her career, and not because he murdered her husband, her baby, and all her friends at her wedding when she wanted a proper life.
 

Neece

Member
I wish S410 topped it. It could've if they followed the book. Martin created a masterpiece with that climax. Using Kill Bill as a reference for how it was changed,
imagine The Bride going after Bill because he didn't accept her and rebuked her in front of the other assassins, and not because he murdered her husband, her baby, and all her friends just because she wanted to have a proper life.

Is this in reference to Tyrion's motivations?
 

Neece

Member
He's talking about
Lady Stoneheart, the book-only reincarnation of Caitlyn

I thought that at first but the Kill Bill reference didn't really make sense if it was talking about her. They said the Bride had a change of motivation, not that she didn't go after Bill at all.
 
Killing Arnolf and marrying Talisa are all down to the Stark code of honor. That's the tragic character flaw that saw Ned killed in season 1 and Robb in season 3. Stupid? Not really. But absolutely naive.

And if this had been any other garbage fantasy story Robb would have gotten away with it -- virtue trumps rationality. But it wasn't, he didn't, and I'm still not sure why you're upset. He fucked up - not because of hokey writing, but because of a pre-established character flaw - and was mortally punished. What's the problem?

The Stark honor was definitely the reason Robb married Jeyne in the books, but not really Talisa in the show. In the books they had sex in a moment of extreme weakness for Robb and it was a mistake but he felt he needed to make it right. Show Robb is basically just horny and goes, "Fuck my vows! Let's fuck! LOL!"
 

A-V-B

Member
Is this in reference to Tyrion's motivations?

Tyrion was justified hating his father for how he'd been mistreated his whole life, but as a strategic, intelligent man, he was emotionally justified sacrificing his life to murder Tywin for the atrocity performed upon his (real, not roleplaying prostitute) wife. Tywin may have been able to treat the Martells that way and escape Oberyn's vengeance, but since he had the same standards of treatment for his own family, no amount of power could stop the dagger that struck from within. Or in this case, bolt.

It's an interesting arc for multiple reasons, and the way it fits together generates a massive high. All the "where's Tysha" stuff in the sequels, not so much, but that didn't require the same focus and care that Tyrion's family separation arc did. It wouldn't even need to be shown, since the audience wouldn't require Tyrion to ask that question. They'd ask it themselves around water coolers.
 

jviggy43

Member
I can't believe people are comparing season 6 to the red wedding. The red wedding involved characters you were rooting for and really cared about. Season 6 involved secondary characters and a shock surprise with someone who wasn't really likeable or relatable.
 
I can't believe people are comparing season 6 to the red wedding. The red wedding involved characters you were rooting for and really cared about. Season 6 involved secondary characters and a shock surprise with someone who wasn't really likeable or relatable.

Not everybody worshipped stupid characters like Robb and Cat

Jon Snow is infinitely more likeable and 6.9 is nuts.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Not everybody worshipped stupid characters like Robb and Cat

Jon Snow is infinitely more likeable and 6.9 is nuts.

Jon certainly is but Kit Harrington's representation of him does less than nothing for me which hurts the character a lot.
 
I think seasons 1 - 4 is like the hottest streak in television. I don't think anything will top the Red Wedding. As a book reader it was so much fun watching it with my friends and the reactions afterwards. The series was popular but I think that moment secured its place in the tv annals.
 

jviggy43

Member
Not everybody worshipped stupid characters like Robb and Cat

Jon Snow is infinitely more likeable and 6.9 is nuts.
Say You don't worship stupid characters....then says how likeable Jon snow is who might be the stupidest character on the show. Makes no sense.
 
Say You don't worship stupid characters....then says how likeable Jon snow is who might be the stupidest character on the show. Makes no sense.

Yep. Jon has the exact same decision-making capabilities of his father who was the first major player to get got, yet somehow everything just works for him!

Plus Kit Harrington as Jon does not nothing for me.
 
Yep. Jon has the exact same decision-making capabilities of his father who was the first major player to get got, yet somehow everything just works for him!

Plus Kit Harrington as Jon does not nothing for me.
It’s because
he’s the song of ice and fire
breh.
 
Say You don't worship stupid characters....then says how likeable Jon snow is who might be the stupidest character on the show. Makes no sense.

eh, Jon didn't throw his and many others life away for a piece of ass. Jon didn't lose half his army for literally no fucking reason. Jon didn't release the most valuable hostage of all time for the price of free.99

The Starks are pretty much all portrayed as dumbasses except Arya. Even poor old dead Ned.
 

Goodstyle

Member
Weddings in general on GoT are always amazing. An underappreciated one is the Tyrion/Sansa wedding in S3, which IMO had some of the best collection of scenes in the series. And I'm not talking about the Joffrey stuff, I'm talking about the little moments and interplay between all the characters.

I agree with a lot of this, but disagree about Cersei. She’s one of the few characters that has maintained momentum as a character through all seven seasons. I don’t think she has struggled in direction for seasons 5-7 at all, unlike Tyrion and Jaimie to a lesser extent. She has steadily moved forward unlike some others that just seem to tread water. I see clear arcs for her in seasons 5, 6, and 7 that are logical and in character, and have some good themes regarding her hunger for power and the collateral damage to her life
(season 5 - losing her dignity and hair, season 6 - losing her children, season 7 - losing the only person that ever truly loved her).
A touch of madness, fury, cunning, incompetence, love, fear, and wit has kept her going strong into the later seasons, even giving her some of the best character moments of the entire series.

She’s also one of the few whose dialogue has remained relatively strong even after the series lost GRRM’s writing.

This 100%. She's the only character who's had a clear and distinct direction throughout the whole series. Just consistently good all the way.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
TFW imagining OP's face when he sees the good AND bad plays of the game in later seasons and thinks the red wedding won't be topped:
ShockingColorlessHagfish.gif
 

jviggy43

Member
Yep. Jon has the exact same decision-making capabilities of his father who was the first major player to get got, yet somehow everything just works for him!

Plus Kit Harrington as Jon does not nothing for me.
Thank God for plot armor.
eh, Jon didn't throw his and many others life away for a piece of ass. Jon didn't lose half his army for literally no fucking reason. Jon didn't release the most valuable hostage of all time for the price of free.99

The Starks are pretty much all portrayed as dumbasses except Arya. Even poor old dead Ned.
No he threw everyone's lives at risk by walking out beyond the wall to take on an army of undead warriors with 7 men, and then ended up giving them the tools necessary to destroy the wall and descend upon westeros. Jon is easily the stupidest character in this show, saved only be the fact Martin and the wrirers give him plot armor. He has no right to be alive. The Starks are dumb but likable. Snow is the dumbest of them all.
 
Thank God for plot armor.

No he threw everyone's lives at risk by walking out beyond the wall to take on an army of undead warriors with 7 men, and then ended up giving them the tools necessary to destroy the wall and descend upon westeros. Jon is easily the stupidest character in this show, saved only be the fact Martin and the wrirers give him plot armor. He has no right to be alive. The Starks are dumb but likable. Snow is the dumbest of them all.
How is it Martin's fault, when show-Jon isn't even his character?
Jon certainly is but Kit Harrington's representation of him does less than nothing for me which hurts the character a lot.
Blame the writing more than Kit, show-Jon isn't written as Jon from the moment they find the Direwolves and on.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
How is it Martin's fault, when show-Jon isn't even his character?

Blame the writing more than Kit, show-Jon isn't written as Jon from the moment they find the Direwolves and on.

Trust me, I have no love for what they did to Stannis for seemingly arbitrary reasons.
 

jviggy43

Member
How is it Martin's fault, when show-Jon isn't even his character?

Blame the writing more than Kit, show-Jon isn't written as Jon from the moment they find the Direwolves and on.
That was a single event. Jon snow has been making stupid decisions since the first book. He gets super plot armor.
 
No he threw everyone's lives at risk by walking out beyond the wall to take on an army of undead warriors with 7 men, and then ended up giving them the tools necessary to destroy the wall and descend upon westeros. Jon is easily the stupidest character in this show, saved only be the fact Martin and the wrirers give him plot armor. He has no right to be alive. The Starks are dumb but likable. Snow is the dumbest of them all.

I love how you're blaming Jon for Dany being stubborn and not believing Jon.
 
That was a single event. Jon snow has been making stupid decisions since the first book. He gets super plot armor.
Jon Snow is not an idiot.
He's perceptive, he's a good strategist, he's a capabale leader, and he's deliberate while being open to new courses of actions.
Jon's fatal flaw is his inability to communicate with/properly express himself to his subordinates, and absorbing Aemon's advice to "kill the boy", to a more extreme extent than was necessary, which is one reason he's more closed off in Dance compared to books prior.
That's what lead to Jon's downfall, and lead to some of his more bumbling choices.
Mistakes, but not a lack of intelligence.
Hell, just look at how his advice to Stannis on rallying the Mountain Clans is playing out, amongst other things.
Trust me, I have no love for what they did to Stannis for seemingly arbitrary reasons.
Seriously, compare mopey Jon being insulted by Theon and goaded into accepting Ghost (not that he wasn't going to take Ghost anyways), with:

"An albino," Theon Greyjoy said with wry amusement. "This one will die even faster than the others."
Jon Snow gave his father's ward a long, chilling look. "I think not, Greyjoy," he said. "This one belongs to me."


Shows a world of difference in the bite that they have, amongst other qualities that differ between show/book Jon.

(And not really related to any of this, but I've always loved how heavily the Theon/Jon dynamic/parallels were set up in the first (non-prologue) chapter alone, from the moment the former kicked the deserters head and Jon called him an "ass" on, all the way down to the chapters last line which I quoted.)
 

jviggy43

Member
I love how you're blaming Jon for Dany being stubborn and not believing Jon.
Haha what? The whole point was to convince cersi not dany (another stupid plot) which jon volunteered for instead of sending someone (stupid onto stupid) to which dany came to his rescue, which ended up giving the white walkers access beyond the wall. And that's a single stupid decision. Jon snow has been the dumbest character the entire series, by far.
 
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