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[k_trout]

To answer your question has two answers, imho:

a)When you are told it is. When your government, religion, cult-leader, parent, news reader, sports hero or ultimate authority tells you it is. If you boil it down, that's all that seems to be left, imo.



Clearly there cases that can be isolated. I don't think you can entirely divorce the two concepts - not sure if there even are two concepts.

b)When you are in a personal survival situation - when you in person are attacked by another person or persons. This scenario can be evoked or manipulated by (a.

Good and evil are just abstract values dependent upon a (shared) frame of reference. Relativistic ethics in action. Sorry if that sounds a bit depressing.

Look: smileys

thanks
good points

i only mentioned self defense because that is what people always say to me when i ask them about when is murder acceptable

thanks for the reply
i do appreciate it

 

[pigeon interrupted]

No probs. It's bit of a cynical viewpoint, I realise. There are things like the idea of equality that matter, too. I'm not sure if I've ever seen an actual equality in the wild, though

 

[k_trout]

No probs. It's bit of cynical viewpoint, I realise. There are things like the idea of equality that matter, too. I'm not sure if I've ever seen an actual equality in the wild, though

mate it didnt sound cynical at all
it sounded realistic

 

[Amalthea]

I used to think America was a good guy.

History is being written by it's winners.

 

[Byakuya769]

Bombing an open air restaurant sounds pretty terrortastic to me, no matter who was there.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Former White House press secretary Robert Gibbs stated that the drone killing of Anwar al-Awlaki's son was justified and that the boy "should [have] had a more responsible father."

That still gets me: the wit of a cartoon villain.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

America has never been good. At times it has been more on the right side of history than certain enemies, but it's always been doing something evil in some way at any given point in its history.

Civil rights of the 60's. Everything before that. We are just less evil than a lot of people. I would have less rights in India, China and Japan. And maybe more rights in Europe but they publicly and unabashedly throw bananas at people like me in their football matches. Not sure where a black man could go in this world and truly feel free.

 

[k_trout]

Civil rights of the 60's. Everything before that. We are just less evil than a lot of people. I would have less rights in India, China and Japan. And maybe more rights in Europe but they publicly and unabashedly throw bananas at people like me in their football matches. Not sure where a black man could go in this world and truly feel free.

kick the Occidental out of africa and that could work

oops a little too harsh maybe?

 

[MYE]

Civil rights of the 60's. Everything before that. We are just less evil than a lot of people. I would have less rights in India, China and Japan. And maybe more rights in Europe but they publicly and unabashedly throw bananas at people like me in their football matches. Not sure where a black man could go in this world and truly feel free.

You're not generalizing at all...

 

[liger05]

As long as they can keep painting the picture of these evil brown skinned people on the other side of the world want to take away the freedoms on americans then these sort of things will always happen and the people will not bat an eyelid.

 

[Evolution_1ne]

I used to think America was a good guy.

then you were always naive

this country was built on the flesh and blood of innocents

 

[beast786]

 

[k_trout]

You're not generalizing at all...

i dont think he is.....
my wife has had stones thrown at her in scotland

 

[Aeriscloud]

"Blank" has never been good. At times it has been more on the right side of history than certain enemies, but it's always been doing something evil in some way at any given point in its history.

Fill in the blank with any country's name.

 

[k_trout]

Fill in the blank with any country's name.

how about..... fill "blank" with ......humans
countries are only groups of people

 

[Sushigod7]

I used to think America was a good guy.

As a country founded on kicking out it's native people, killing them and finally restricting them to reservations I think we started this country on a power trip. And still today America we have a "we are better than you" mentality while we do have freedom's many countries don't. We also have many of the same problems or worse than other larger countries. Our government system is completely full of corrupt politicians which I guess is probably true of most other governments as well. It's a shitty system but it's not going to change anytime soon unfortunately.

 

[Aeriscloud]

how about..... fill "blank" with ......humans
countries are only groups of people

An even better observation. Thank You.

 

[MYE]

i dont think he is.....
my wife has had stones thrown at her in scotland

Europe is pretty big

 

[k_trout]

Europe is pretty big

yes it is

 

[Amalthea]

I'm european and I would never throw stones at anyone.

 

[k_trout]

I'm european and I would never throw stones at anyone.

me either
but unfortunately that doesnt mean sh*t

 

[jet1911]

It's a war against terrorism. I seriously doubt they took action on him just cuz they were bored.

I don't know anything more about this incident than I learned in this thread. I only responded because of the comment that Americans are terrorists or "evil'. That's bullshit.

To the population of these countries that are getting killed by the US I'm sure it's not bullshit.

 

[hoos30]

I used to think America was a good guy.

Wow. Dude's son was Anwar al-alaki, an al-Qaeda face card, and the son went off the grid in YEMEN for two weeks. The article makes it sound like it was just some random person.

Thank god we don't have to depend on Europeans for our security.

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact...we don't have to wait for terrorists to retire and turn themselves in to the FBI, we go get them bastards. Yes, sorry if the grandson was innocent, but he did everything possible to make himself a target.

You guys are going to turn me into a conservative yet.

 

[vas_a_morir]

Top Gun - Iron Eagle I grew up with that idea from movies like those in the 80s

but still the only country in the world to drop Nukes on cities should be considered the bad guys

There were no good guys in WWII, it's Total War. However, what course of action should the US have taken instead of using nuclear bombs? We can all agree that no action at all would have been disastrous on a humanitarian level, as the best-case scenario is that millions starve to death, and the worst case scenario (and most likely scenario as the result of inaction) would be the invasion of the Red Army, which would have killed tens of millions, effectively destroyed the cultural history of Japan, and set up what is tantamount feudal slave society like they had in North Korea and China with gulags, civilian concentration camps, and prolonged involuntary involvement in wars that would last for decades longer.

I personally don't know what else the US could have done then that would have produced better humane results.

 

[Kenshin001]

As long as they can keep painting the picture of these evil brown skinned people on the other side of the world want to take away the freedoms on americans then these sort of things will always happen and the people will not bat an eyelid.

You know who the boy's father is right? Anwar al-Awlaki.

The article should be titled, "Grandfather of boy whose father was Al Qaeda recruiter/inciter and issued fatwahs calling for death killed by drone strike."

 

[Carcetti]

Guilty by blood relation? /vomit

 

[poppabk]

i dont think he is.....
my wife has had stones thrown at her in scotland

In America a guy shot and killed an unarmed black teen, admitted that he followed him and then shot him and was allowed to go free by the courts. Oh and he probably wouldn't have been charged at all if the media hadn't latched on to the story.

 

[k_trout]

In America a guy shot and killed an unarmed black teen, admitted that he followed him and then shot him and was allowed to go free by the courts. Oh and he probably wouldn't have been charged at all if the media hadn't latched on to the story.

ye i know
it happens all the time

i wasnt comparing the 2 places by the way

 

[Kenshin001]

Guilty by blood relation? /vomit

It wasn't guilt by blood relation. He wasn't even targeted. They were targeting someone else, an Egyptian Al Qaeda leader. Case of wrong place, wrong time.

 

[k_trout]

Guilty by blood relation? /vomit

they murdered gaddafis grandchildren

guilt by blood

 

[Carcetti]

they murdered gaddafis grandchildren

guilt by blood

People doing dumb things is not a good excuse for doing dumb things.

 

[delirium]

they murdered gaddafis grandchildren

guilt by blood

Then killed the grandchildren when they targeted Gaddafi himself at the compound. It's not like they specifically target children in their RoE.

 

[Lambtron]

Wow. Dude's son was Anwar al-alaki, an al-Qaeda face card, and the son went off the grid in YEMEN for two weeks. The article makes it sound like it was just some random person.

Thank god we don't have to depend on Europeans for our security.

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact...we don't have to wait for terrorists to retire and turn themselves in to the FBI, we go get them bastards. Yes, sorry if the grandson was innocent, but he did everything possible to make himself a target.

You guys are going to turn me into a conservative yet.

I don't think the drone assassination of Anwar al-Awlaki was just either. I'm sorry. I'd much rather we wait for "them bastards" to come and attack the US than we go out and indiscriminately drop bombs on people. American lives aren't worth more than Yemeni lives or Iraqi lives or the lives of people from any other country.

We've been conditioned to be scared of terrorism. We're living in a constant state of fear. We already lost the war on terror. And as we keep giving up our rights, as we keep normalizing the idea of the US considering any military aged male a potential target in a drone strike, as we continue to let them get away with this shit we become worse and worse. It's embarrassing. I'm embarrassed to be an American.

 

[shinobi602]

I used to think America was a good guy.

That thought never crossed my mind.

 

[k_trout]

People doing dumb things is not a good excuse for doing dumb things.

oh....i wasnt suggesting anything other than that
sorry if confusing

 

[Ponti]

It's a war against terrorism. I seriously doubt they took action on him just cuz they were bored.

You sound so indoctrinated.

Can't wait for this bullshit excuse to disappear and people to finally open their eyes.

 

[Hari Seldon]

The sad thing is, because this is a Dem president doing this, nothing is going to happen. No protests, no political opposition from Congress because the Ds will suppress any true liberals (except for a notable few), and the Rs agree with what Obama is doing and just can't believe he has the balls to do it. Same with the NSA crap. Just wait until Sarah Palin has these powers!

 

[bonercop]

Wow. Dude's son was Anwar al-alaki, an al-Qaeda face card, and the son went off the grid in YEMEN for two weeks. The article makes it sound like it was just some random person.

Thank god we don't have to depend on Europeans for our security.

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact...we don't have to wait for terrorists to retire and turn themselves in to the FBI, we go get them bastards. Yes, sorry if the grandson was innocent, but he did everything possible to make himself a target.

You guys are going to turn me into a conservative yet.

"everything possible to make yourself a target" = your dad is (allegedly) some kind of criminal and you visit your home-country

....OK, dude. Personally, I'd demand decisive evidence that he was actually a terrorist, a compelling reason to suspect that he was in the midst of carrying out some EBIL!!! turrist plot, and only after exhausting every other possibility of subduing him, before I'd be okay with my government blowing up fellow citizens without a trial.

We've been conditioned to be scared of terrorism. We're living in a constant state of fear. We already lost the war on terror. And as we keep giving up our rights, as we keep normalizing the idea of the US considering any military aged male a potential target in a drone strike, as we continue to let them get away with this shit we become worse and worse. It's embarrassing. I'm embarrassed to be an American.

It is quite amazing how people still seem to think that "terrorists" are some kind of GI Joe super-villains.

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

You know who the boy's father is right? Anwar al-Awlaki.

The article should be titled, "Grandfather of boy whose father was Al Qaeda recruiter/inciter and issued fatwahs calling for death killed by drone strike."

Yeah, but what does that have to do with the grandson being hit by drones?

 

[casmith07]

ITT: people who have zero understanding of the law of armed conflict.

 

[casmith07]

Wow. Dude's son was Anwar al-alaki, an al-Qaeda face card, and the son went off the grid in YEMEN for two weeks. The article makes it sound like it was just some random person.

Thank god we don't have to depend on Europeans for our security.

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact...we don't have to wait for terrorists to retire and turn themselves in to the FBI, we go get them bastards. Yes, sorry if the grandson was innocent, but he did everything possible to make himself a target.

You guys are going to turn me into a conservative yet.

I like how people think Attorney General Holder, President Obama, and the Joint Chiefs are just sitting around like..."yeah drone strike 'em."

This stuff is a hell of a lot more complex than some one-side-of-the-story article in the New York Times.

 

[FoxSpirit]

ITT: people who have zero understanding of the law of armed conflict.

ITT: people who have zero understanding what a foreign policy disaster is

When you assasinate someone, you HAVE to have good reasons. You HAVE to answer. Otherwise you will get the label of "semi randomly killing people you kinda not like". Which in this world is by the very definition evil.
Good judgement, good reasoning, good answering and standing by it. The US is failing all.

Just makes me feel Europe should just join hands with Asia and forget the US... sometimes.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

I like how people think Attorney General Holder, President Obama, and the Joint Chiefs are just sitting around like..."yeah drone strike 'em."

This stuff is a hell of a lot more complex than some one-side-of-the-story article in the New York Times.

Uh-oh guys. We got one of them in here...

 

[bonercop]

I like how people think Attorney General Holder, President Obama, and the Joint Chiefs are just sitting around like..."yeah drone strike 'em."

I like how you're implying that this isn't the case.You DO know what signature strikes are, right? For the vast majority of the time, they have no idea who they're hitting with the drones strikes.

 

[jamesinclair]

The us government is just standing its ground

 

[Tallshortman]

have any other countries sent drones to north America? I never hear of drone retaliation at all.

The drone attacks in yemen are allowed by the yemeni government and sometimes claimed by the yemeni's as their own airstrikes. There is also an under the table agreement with pakistan despite how much they publicly denouncement it. Why would they "retaliate" if they allowed these drones in the first place.

Second, the only countries close enough to even send a drone to NA are in NA. Also, any country that would directly attack the US with state military resources would be leveled within a few weeks.

ITT: people who have zero understanding what a foreign policy disaster is

When you assasinate someone, you HAVE to have good reasons. You HAVE to answer. Otherwise you will get the label of "semi randomly killing people you kinda not like". Which in this world is by the very definition evil.
Good judgement, good reasoning, good answering and standing by it. The US is failing all.

Just makes me feel Europe should just join hands with Asia and forget the US... sometimes.

Asia? You mean China? Most of the other big players in Asia: Japan, SK, India are all pro-US. I have family there, lol if it even crossed your mind Europe would be better off with that authoritarian regime. The US isn't even reliant on Europe, they're the ones who request US military leadership when they want something done by force. I understand when people have problems with aspects of US foreign policy, as do I, however let's not descend into hyperbole.

 

[Lambtron]

Also, any country that would directly attack the US with state military resources would be leveled within a few weeks.

U-S-A! U-S-A!

 

[Lamel]

Remember americans, next time you go to a brown people country, you aren't safe because of your own government.

Dat double entendre.

On topic, this is pretty messed up, but isn't hard to believe at this point.

 

[Parch]

ITT: people who have zero understanding what a foreign policy disaster is...
Just makes me feel Europe should just join hands with Asia and forget the US.

Year after year, the world is losing respect for the United States. It's disturbing how much of their citizenship turns a blind eye to their atrocious foreign policies.

 

[Tallshortman]

U-S-A! U-S-A!

I'm stating why no one (well at least highly unlikely) would retaliate against the US through non-proxies, not trying to "brag". It's productive for him to understand why these things don't happen.