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[delirium]

Year after year, the world is losing respect for the United States. It's disturbing how much of their citizenship turns a blind eye to their atrocious foreign policies.

I mean this in the most respectable way but fuck the world's opinion.

Literally every action the US takes would piss off some subsection of the world. If we do A, people would bitch. If we choose not to do A, other people would bitch.

The American government is doing what its main job is to do; look out for the well being and interests of its citizens and it will prioritize it over non-Americans. Every government in the world does this and America is no different.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

I mean this in the most respectable way but fuck the world's opinion.

Literally every action the US takes would piss off some subsection of the world. If we do A, people would bitch. If we choose not to do A, other people would bitch.

The American government is doing what its main job is to do; look out for the well being and interests of its citizens and it will prioritize it over non-Americans. Every government in the world does this and America is no different.

It wasn't looking out for his well-being as an American.

 

[Parch]

I mean this in the most respectable way but fuck the world's opinion.

What happens when the world decides on economic sanctions?
The US needs the world more than the world needs the US. They better start caring more about world opinion because that is in their best interests.

 

[delirium]

What happens when the world decides on economic sanctions?
The US needs the world more than the world needs the US. They better start caring more about world opinion because that is in their best interests.

Never going to happen. Just like the fact that for every action that America does, some subsection of the world is going to hate us, there will always be a subsection of the world that will trade with us.

The world is not a monolithic place where everyone shares the same opinions of America.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I mean this in the most respectable way but fuck the world's opinion.

Literally every action the US takes would piss off some subsection of the world. If we do A, people would bitch. If we choose not to do A, other people would bitch.

The American government is doing what its main job is to do; look out for the well being and interests of its citizens and it will prioritize it over non-Americans. Every government in the world does this and America is no different.

No, no, no, no. It looks out for the well being and interests of its richest and most influential citizens. That's it.

 

[Lamel]

I mean this in the most respectable way but fuck the world's opinion.

Literally every action the US takes would piss off some subsection of the world. If we do A, people would bitch. If we choose not to do A, other people would bitch.

The American government is doing what its main job is to do; look out for the well being and interests of its citizens and it will prioritize it over non-Americans. Every government in the world does this and America is no different.

By killing its own citizens. Nice.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

No, no, no, no. It looks out for the well being and interests of its richest and most influential citizens. That's it.

By killing its own citizens. Nice.

He can't be bothered with the reality.

 

[delirium]

No, no, no, no. It looks out for the well being and interests of its richest and most influential citizens. That's it.

I mean if you really just believe that; I don't know what to say except that under your logic, every government operates under the same modus operandi.

By killing its own citizens. Nice.

He can't be bothered with the reality.

The US kills its own citizens all the time in the name of protecting its citizens. It's called capital punishment.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I mean if you really just believe that; I don't know what to say except that under your logic, every government operates under the same modus operandi.

Yeah, probably. The people with the most power and influence get top priority. That's just kind of the way of things.

The US kills its own citizens all the time in the name of protecting its citizens. It's called capital punishment.

Really? You're going to compare capital punishment to a drone attack?

 

[NathanMcMahon]

I mean if you really just believe that; I don't know what to say except that under your logic, every government operates under the same modus operandi.



The US kills its own citizens all the time in the name of protecting its citizens. It's called capital punishment.

The US government doesn't enforce the death penalty. This child was also never convicted in a court of law in a supposed nation of laws.

Really? You're going to compare capital punishment to a drone attack?

It is hard to argue with someone who doesn't understand.

 

[Nesotenso]

Where the fuck did you go wrong with your son ?

 

[delirium]

Really? You're going to compare capital punishment to a drone attack?

No, I was pointing out that the US routinely kills people in the interest of its citizens all the time.

The US government doesn't enforce the death penalty. This child was also never convicted in a court of law in a supposed nation of laws.

The death of the grandson at the hands of the targeting killing is very tragic, don't misunderstand me. From what I understand he was killed when the US thought they targeted someone else. While tragic, such incidents do not make a policy.

 

[unpopularblargh]

No, I was pointing out that the US routinely kills people in the interest of its citizens all the time.


The death of the grandson at the hands of the targeting killing is very tragic, don't misunderstand me. From what I understand he was killed when the US thought they targeted someone else. While tragic, such incidents do not make a policy.

The government usually is supposed to give you a trial before they murder you.

 

[delirium]

The government usually is supposed to give you a trial before they murder you.

Not always. If you pull a gun on a person with the intent of shooting, there will be no trial when a cop shoots you.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

No, I was pointing out that the US routinely kills people in the interest of its citizens all the time.


The death of the grandson at the hands of the targeting killing is very tragic, don't misunderstand me. From what I understand he was killed when the US thought they targeted someone else. While tragic, such incidents do not make a policy.

It's a policy that there are no checks and balances to the system. It shouldn't be possible to just sweep the murder of a US citizen by his or her own government under the rug, accident or not. If this happened domestically--say the FBI makes a mistake and raids some innocent's house, and kills that person, there would be hell to pay.

Not always. If you pull a gun on a person with the intent of shooting, there will be no trial when a cop shoots you.

Why are you even bringing this up? How is it relevant?

 

[delirium]

It's a policy that there are no checks and balances to the system. It shouldn't be possible to just sweep the murder of a US citizen by his or her own government under the rug, accident or not. If this happened domestically--say the FBI makes a mistake and raids some innocent's house, and kills that person, there would be hell to pay.

Well the US constitution pretty much affords the president a shitload of power in foreign affairs.

You're right that if this happened domestically it would be a complete shitstorm, but it didn't.

Why are you even bringing this up? How is it relevant?

I was answering his question???

 

[Parch]

fuck the world's opinion.

I bet Hitler said this a lot.

 

[delirium]

I bet Hitler said this a lot.

Godwin's Law??

A real response: No US president/politician should base his or her actions mainly on the opinion of the world. I'm sure your government (if you are not a US citizen) doesn't makes decisions based on the opinions of the US public and I'm sure your glad for it.

 

[nib95]

I mean this in the most respectable way but fuck the world's opinion.

Literally every action the US takes would piss off some subsection of the world. If we do A, people would bitch. If we choose not to do A, other people would bitch.

The American government is doing what its main job is to do; look out for the well being and interests of its citizens and it will prioritize it over non-Americans. Every government in the world does this and America is no different.

This post encapsulates why these issues are able to run rife in the US, and why much of the rest of the world feels the way it does about the country, it's government policies and it's actions. A mixture of a selfish, easily misguided, overly patriotic and apathetic culture is really doing damage to the nation.

Fuck you, I got mine. Basically.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

For the State Department, DoJ and Executive Office to explain the death of his grandson would be to welcome a debate as to the metrics of the drone warfare program, specifically the concept of any adult-sized male being viewed as an enemy combatant. For them to recede on this would mean they could only fire a missile when the target is a safe distance from non-targets. In short, it would likely act as a dramatic impediment.

In effect, the grandfather isn't asking for an apology, he is unwillingly asking for the program to be scrapped in its current form and unfortunately that is not any closer to materialisation despite the deaths of countless innocents who were, for convenience, labelled as enemy combatants.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

This post encapsulates why these issues are able to run rife in the US, and why much of the rest of the world feels the way it does about the country, it's government policies and it's actions. A mixture of a selfish, easily misguided, overly patriotic and apathetic culture is really doing damage to the nation.

Fuck you, I got mine. Basically.

Unbelievable damage. Even worse is the complete lack of engagement on any meaningful level. It's virtually impossible to argue with such misguided notions and a lack of understanding the basics of human existence and politics and supposed rule of law in our country. He thinks the US puts people to death and still believes so even after pointing it out that he is wrong.

 

[bonercop]

edit:db

 

[bonercop]

Not always. If you pull a gun on a person with the intent of shooting, there will be no trial when a cop shoots you.

That's not premeditated, though.

It's quite different from getting a bomb dropped on you based on suspicion, no matter how much Obama likes to invoke that example.

No, no, no, no. It looks out for the well being and interests of its richest and most influential citizens. That's it.

Yup. If it was looking out for its citizens, there's about a million different things they could fix which kill way, way, way more Americans with the money spent on "security".

 

[delirium]

This post encapsulates why these issues are able to run rife in the US, and why much of the rest of the world feels the way it does about the country, it's government policies and it's actions. A mixture of a selfish, easily misguided, overly patriotic and apathetic culture is really doing damage to the nation.

Fuck you, I got mine. Basically.

I'm sorry but I think you're completely naive if you think the US government is completely alone in this.

Every government in the world looks out for the interest of its own over others. Or does your government hand out subsided social programs to everyone in the world?

I would argue that a good government should be looking out for the interest of its own. A government that fails to do so lacks legitimacy.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

I'm sorry but I think you're completely naive if you think the US government is completely alone in this.

Every government in the world looks out for the interest of its own over others. Or does your government hand out subsided social programs to everyone in the world?

I would argue that a good government should be looking out for the interest of its own. A government that fails to do so lacks legitimacy.

So the US lacks legitimacy for murdering it's own innocent citizens? You obviously agree with what I just said so no need to reply.

 

[delirium]

So the US lacks legitimacy for murdering it's own innocent citizens? You obviously agree with what I just said so no need to reply.

It's nice when you try and put words in my mouth and argue for me right? Makes it easier for you.

I was arguing at the basest political level, a government should be looking out for its own over others. I have never stated I supported the killing of Abdulrahman.

As for your question, I would say yes, for some, it has lost some of its legitimacy.

 

[nib95]

I'm sorry but I think you're completely naive if you think the US government is completely alone in this.

Every government in the world looks out for the interest of its own over others. Or does your government hand out subsided social programs to everyone in the world?

I would argue that a good government should be looking out for the interest of its own. A government that fails to do so lacks legitimacy.

This is true to an extent obviously, you'd be naive to think otherwise, but there's a line. There's always a line. And there's always the moral compass within each of us to draw that line, and say enough is enough. Unless of course you're so wrapped up in it all, or too selfish to simply care.

If the only way you're successful or safe is by the continual immoral destruction of the lives of your own or of others, there's something seriously wrong. You have to ask yourself deep down, if it's all worth it. For me personally, if such was the price? The wars based on lies, constant bombings, murders, deaths, injustices, torture, violations against rights, personal privileges, loss of privacy, lack of justice and loss of legal rights and everything else...then no, it absolutely is not worth it, and should make it impossible to turn a blind eye. When you lose human compassion and sympathy for your fellow man, and by that I mean on a global level, not just other American's, with it you lose rationality, sense and a basic moral structure which is tantamount to our success as a species.

 

[SiteSeer]

Chi ... er America don't care.

 

[Hunter S.]

I'd assume most people would choose not killing innocents. Why are Americans not protesting in the streets about this? Your commander in chief is playing God using bullshit reasoning as justification.

Thousands of people joined the Occupy Wallstreet movement and that was about money. People march in the streets for gay rights. Celebrities jump on these bandwagons left right and center. (Probably not because they care but for the PR boost)

This is about innocent lives. The apathy sickens me. Maybe out of sight really means out of mind in this situation. Disgusting.

Bad things happen all the time all over the world and very few get protested. You are very idealistic.

 

[unpopularblargh]

Not always. If you pull a gun on a person with the intent of shooting, there will be no trial when a cop shoots you.

But there was no immediate danger or "gun" in this case.

 

[kittens]

Spoiler

There is no good guy

Uhh, actually, there are lots of good people. Don't try to make this an "all morality is relative" thing.

 

[delirium]

This is true to an extent obviously, you'd be naive to think otherwise, but there's a line. There's always a line. And there's always the moral compass within each of us to draw that line, and say enough is enough. Unless of course you're so wrapped up in it all, or too selfish to simply care.

If the only way you're successful or safe is by the continual immoral destruction of the lives of your own or of others, there's something seriously wrong. You have to ask yourself deep down, if it's all worth it. For me personally, if such was the price? The wars based on lies, bombings, murders, deaths, injustices, torture, violations against rights, personal privileges, loss of privacy, lack of justice and loss of legal rights and everything else...then no, it absolutely is not worth it, and should make it impossible to turn a blind eye. When you lose human compassion and sympathy for your fellow man, and by that I mean on a global level, not just other American's, with it you lose rationality, sense and a basic moral structure which is tantamount to our success as a species.

The problem is comparing it to a line is wrong. A line to be something concrete and binary. There is one side and there is another. That's completely a false analogy. It's more a sea of lighter tone of gray and a darker tone of gray and even that depends upon who's viewing it.

What I was talking about in my post was the fact that the US will be damned for any action it takes.

As for your second point, I agree. Doesn't change the fact that wars will still happen and will always be ugly monstrous injustices. It also doesn't change the fact that humans are tribal by nature. I will always value the lives of my family and friends over strangers and anyone arguing otherwise for themselves are lying to themselves. The modern nation-state construct just takes it to a gigantic level and human nature isn't going to change.

 

[Lamel]

The US kills its own citizens all the time in the name of protecting its citizens. It's called capital punishment.

Lmao...oh man, I can't.

If you don't see how that isn't a valid comparison then I don't know how the US public school system failed you that bad.

 

[delirium]

But there was no immediate danger or "gun" in this case.

And the US probably killed American citizens by accident when they were mass bombing Germany, Japan, Vietnam, or Korea. I'm not arguing that its legal or moral; I'm just pointing out that it has happened before and probably more commonplace than you think (and not just unique to America)

 

[Deleted member 17706]

And the US probably killed American citizens by accident when they were mass bombing Germany, Japan, Vietnam, or Korea. I'm not arguing that its legal or moral; I'm just pointing out that it has happened before and probably more commonplace than you think (and not just unique to America)

Are we at war with Yemen?

 

[delirium]

Are we at war with Yemen?

We're at war with al-Qaeda.

 

[Parch]

Most americans simply can't even begin to comprehend a world war in which the United States would be considered the "bad guy".

But those same americans are the ones who when questioned about abysmal foreign policy will say "I don't give a fuck what you think. What are you going to do about it?"

 

[delirium]

Most americans simply can't even begin to comprehend a world war in which the United States would be considered the "bad guy".

But those same americans are the ones who when questioned about abysmal foreign policy will say "I don't give a fuck what you think. What are you going to do about it?"

I'm pretty sure America is not unique in this position.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

We're at war with al-Qaeda.

That's like saying we're at war with whomever we don't like. A perpetual state of war with no limits or boundaries. It's bullshit.

 

[FamousLastX]

Former NSA director was just on CNN discussing this. Basically said, eh tell his grandfather we had tried everything we could and it was unavoidbale under these kind of situations.

ffs.

 

[delirium]

That's like saying we're at war with whomever we don't like. A perpetual state of war with no limits or boundaries. It's bullshit.

I'm pretty sure flying two airplanes into the twin towers and one into the Pentagon constitutes a war-like act. Just because they're not a nation-state doesn't mean we're not at war with them.

 

[casabolg]

This administration taking responsibility for drone use? Ever? Pfftttt.

 

[nib95]

The problem is comparing it to a line is wrong. A line to be something concrete and binary. There is one side and there is another. That's completely a false analogy. It's more a sea of lighter tone of gray and a darker tone of gray and even that depends upon who's viewing it.

What I was talking about in my post was the fact that the US will be damned for any action it takes.

As for your second point, I agree. Doesn't change the fact that wars will still happen and will always be ugly monstrous injustices. It also doesn't change the fact that humans are tribal by nature. I will always value the lives of my family and friends over strangers and anyone arguing otherwise for themselves are lying to themselves. The modern nation-state construct just takes it to a gigantic level and human nature isn't going to change.

I appreciate other elements of your post, but this point is really regressive and dangerous. You can't use straw man or counter productive fantasy arguments to justify horrid and immoral actions. "It's ok that we do this terrible disgusting thing, because people would complain if we did something else anyway!"

Listen to yourself. What awful and self destructive logic.

Wake up man.

Not all criticisms are born equal, and not all actions and policies being critiqued are either. People will have more of a disdain for certain things over others, and rightfully so. Which is where I said people ought to retain a moral compass and a theoretical "line", essentially moral limits (not actually a literal one).

 

[Gartooth]

I get more fearful of my country every day. Thoughts go out to the grandfather and family, just awful the government is refusing to be held accountable for killing one of their citizens.

 

[stilgar]

It's a war against terrorism. I seriously doubt they
took action on him just cuz they were bored.

I don't know anything more about this incident than I learned in this thread. I only responded because of the comment that Americans are terrorists or "evil'. That's bullshit.

And their answer is a terrorist attack. Brilliant!

 

[nib95]

I'm pretty sure flying two airplanes into the twin towers and one into the Pentagon constitutes a war-like act. Just because they're not a nation-state doesn't mean we're not at war with them.

War with who? You're at war with an ideology, therefore it is not a war that can be won or even properly fought, not without being counter productive and adding further fuel to the defence of that ideology and initial political sentiment.

America's done a LOT of fucked up shit to many countries, by your logic these other countries have a right to war with America. With America's constant acts of violence and murders of foreigners, their human rights violations, Guantanamo, drone bombings, overstayed welcome in waring nations, false wars based on lies, support of Israel and everything else, they're certainly giving plenty of ammunition for the terrorist political ideology to blossom.

On that subject though, what's your defence of the war in Iraq? What did Iraqi's do to justify that?, and with it the destruction of their country and the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives, both foreign and American. Did you forget it was a war based on lies and fabricated evidence?

 

[dan2026]

Is it fair to say at this point America has killed more civilians in their 'war on terror' than the actual terrorists have?

 

[ISOM]

People keep saying that drone strikes are creating the terrorist of the future. However terrorist existed before drone strikes and they will exist after any drone strikes cease. Terrorist are terrorist because they often don't have logical reasons for what they do. However keep blaming drone strikes if that makes you feel good.

 

[gohepcat]

Has anyone actually bother to do a fucking modicum of research into this?

This is bad, but it was an obvious mistake. Grow up people. The world isn't a god-damn comic book.

Again, killing people without due process is not ok,.. but it's not the same as a suicide bomber targeting civilians.

If you think the American government is " the same" as Al-Qaeda you really need to get of the internet and spend time with thee people.

 

[OfWhiteSkinOnRedLeather]

I'm the opposite, I never thought that.

Seriously. I don't know why anyone would think that.