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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

yamaci17

Member
This whole cutscene can gameplay controversy is really not at all a big enigma. People are impressed by visuals running real time on the hardware. Both gameplay AND cutscene.

So when people say “wow they did X on 1.8tflops” they’re right. They got whatever visuals they’re praising running real time on said hardware. It’s pretty simple to me
". IT IS ADMIRABLE that they achieve it while rendering in real time in cutscenes"

I said it right here... i too go like "wow this looks good" friend. i just do not associate with game's overall visual fidelity. i just can't, personally. I can't use DS or DS2's cutscenes to compare its visuals to something like red dead redemption 2. i cant say DS looks better than rdr 2 purely because of its cutscenes.

and if you really want to see a different perspective, here's a 2016 GPU with 140 bucks MSRP price tag (around a time when PS4 was still sold for upwards of 300 bucks due to ps4 pro not being released yet) with only 2.1 tflops;




Whats funny is that GTA6 is ALL cutscenes, and likely not even realtime or running on a PS5 like DS2. Its fine to compare but lets compare cutscene to cutscene, gameplay to gameplay.
what? I'm sure it is live running on ps5 real time. I hope you're joking. even pixels counts are at 1440p and game looks like it is outputting to 1440p. if it wasn't running on a ps5 in real time, they would do a 4K trailer and it would look much much better

and again, God of war, RDR2 and GTA 6 cutscenes are not like Death stranding cutscenes. When I say "cutscene one trick pony" for death stranding, I mean it. they literally halt the entire world rendering, limit FOV if it is outside. in other cases you're in places that do not exist in game (interior places). it is just something else.

in rdr 2, gta and god of war cutscenes happen alongside with real time events. that is why cutscene trevor and in game trevor do not look widly apart.



look at this trailer. it was %150 running base PS3. and back then people questioned if it was the case or not.

or take gta san andreas. cutscene cj and in game cj looks the same. cutscene big smoke and in game big smoke looks the same.

it is something really unique to Death Stranding. you can feel you are watching a CGI like movie when death stranding cutscenes start. it is not the same with gow or rdr2 or any other most lastgen games.
 

rofif

Banned
Friend, you're missing the point. i never imply game looks bad in gameplay. I say that the cutscene fidelity, the CGI-offline look to it, does not happen in actual game. IT IS ADMIRABLE that they achieve it while rendering in real time in cutscenes. never say it is not. but PEOPLE act like it is what they see all the time in the game and take that as a metric for how the game looks overall, THAT is the line where I stop.

And your screenshots prove that too. Also delet PS4 shots, foliage looks muddy and unrecognizable. Only way these games were possible on PS4 was TAA and TAA is just a muddy-crap filter at 1080p. It only ever looks good if you look at it from enough long distance or if 1080p taa output is all you've seen in your entire life. once you see 1440p and higher output with taa I can never see 1080p taa in good light. even without seeing last of us part 2's 1440p or 4k modes while playing on base ps4 I yawned whenever I saw muddy foliage at 1080p (it also looks semi decentish IF you stop and give taa time to reconstruct it becomes, again, FAKE FIDELITY;


this is why i hate whenever someone says "1.8 tflops! ps4!" it doesn't do anything for me. cutscenes are places where you give TAA time to reconstruct details perfectly and much more pixel samples, so even a PS4 looks "oh my, they did this on a PS4" feel. if not for TAA to make these games COHERENT while making them incredibly MUDDY, these games would run or look horrible. they only look okayish if you stand still and illusion breaks apart the second you move the camera. it is just what it is. there's no magic involved with 1.8 tflops of PS4.

I just want to see the day when it looks/holds the same detail level, crispiness and FEEL in actual gameplay when moving the camera.

assuming the picture where u carry the body is taken while standing still and it still looks muddy and horrible, I don't even want to imagine how it looks in actual movement. i launched death stranding directors cut at 1080p and I was shocked how horrible it looked and quickly ran away to 4K output and game looked like how it should look like. if game had realistic graphics like it did in cutscenes, it would practically look like a CGI movie captured in real time. but look at your screenshots. don't tell me they hold the same "offline CGI look" to them compared to the cutscenes in the game. cutscenes scream "MOVIE, LIFE LIKE", and other screenshots scream "GAME". and there's nothing really wrong with that. and don't hit me with the "why u want games to look like CGI! they're games, they must look gamey". so don't tell me that because then it would be pointless to admire how life like and CGI-like cutscenes look. so I hope we're on the same page there.

again and again, I never say DS looked bad or something. It was still one of the best of the lastgen. but cutscenes simply didn't match the overall feel of the graphics. it is just my opinion. god of war is more consistent where cutscene to gameplay transition is more transparent. as a result you don't get people swooning over god of war cutscenes. and no one remembers god of war having great graphics. I personally think gow 2018 ambient graphics can go to 1 on 1 with death stranding ambient graphics. but cutscene wise DS took the ball and ran away with it. and there's nothing wrong with that. last of us did the same too. and RDR2 didn't, as its cutscenes are organic and always happen while the entirety of an open world background is kept being rendered. so it is actually even more impressive. if RDR2 went the TLOU2 way, it would probably be something monstrous and this thread would be full of it.

DS cutscenes were above standard and extraordinary, DS regular gameplay graphics were just like other games really. and of course rdr 2 from 2018 easily clears it. but that's another topic

reason I'm liking alan wake 2 is THIS. the game transitions from cutscene to gameplay and illusion doesn't break. yet at the same time both is breath taking. I'm not particularly saying DS or DS2 breaks the illusion. DS has unique a structure where cutscenes happen in isolated places that you don't see in actual gameplay (mostly). this is why the illusion doesn't break apart much. the outside world and cutscene world is separated by an invisible wall. but in a trailer like this is it is jarring from seeing CGI-like Fragile to 1440p or something meh rock textures. like you can render Fragile like CGI but rocks looks like meh? it is just the limitation of hardware. let's not act like it is something else. it needs more memory. it can render rocks like CGI too. it just needs more memory. there simply isn't memory or maybe hardware grunt for that now. at least in the case of open worlds
Fine. No offense taken :p
I mean, yes, I kinda agree. the cutscenes quality even in ds1 is such an incredible high compared to even good (especially at the time) looking gameplay.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
". IT IS ADMIRABLE that they achieve it while rendering in real time in cutscenes"

I said it right here... i too go like "wow this looks good" friend. i just do not associate with game's overall visual fidelity. i just can't, personally. I can't use DS or DS2's cutscenes to compare its visuals to something like red dead redemption 2. i cant say DS looks better than rdr 2 purely because of its cutscenes.

and if you really want to see a different perspective, here's a 2016 GPU with 140 bucks MSRP price tag (around a time when PS4 was still sold for upwards of 300 bucks due to ps4 pro not being released yet) with only 2.1 tflops;





what? I'm sure it is live running on ps5 real time. I hope you're joking. even pixels counts are at 1440p and game looks like it is outputting to 1440p. if it wasn't running on a ps5 in real time, they would do a 4K trailer and it would look much much better

and again, God of war, RDR2 and GTA 6 cutscenes are not like Death stranding cutscenes. When I say "cutscene one trick pony" for death stranding, I mean it. they literally halt the entire world rendering, limit FOV if it is outside. in other cases you're in places that do not exist in game (interior places). it is just something else.

in rdr 2, gta and god of war cutscenes happen alongside with real time events. that is why cutscene trevor and in game trevor do not look widly apart.



look at this trailer. it was %150 running base PS3. and back then people questioned if it was the case or not.

or take gta san andreas. cutscene cj and in game cj looks the same. cutscene big smoke and in game big smoke looks the same.

it is something really unique to Death Stranding. you can feel you are watching a CGI like movie when death stranding cutscenes start. it is not the same with gow or rdr2 or any other most lastgen games.

we dont know for sure if its running on the PS5 or is realtime. Thats all i am saying. Its all cutscenes too. DS specifically mentioned that the game was running realtime on PS5, Rockstar didnt.

DF found that some of the instagram shots might have even been prerendered but they couldnt say for sure.
 

Hunnybun

Member
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2 heaviest hitters we know about for next year so far.

IDGAF about different art styles, which one looks better to you guys?

GTA VI looks miles better. It's still easily the best looking game ever shown. The kind of cinematic, "wide" shots of DS2's environments look great - although still not as good as GTA VI - but I agree with those saying that the actual gameplay shots look a bit underwhelming.
 

rofif

Banned
GTA VI looks miles better. It's still easily the best looking game ever shown. The kind of cinematic, "wide" shots of DS2's environments look great - although still not as good as GTA VI - but I agree with those saying that the actual gameplay shots look a bit underwhelming.
imo gta6 is still looks worse. It portrays realistic world and it stilldoesn't look realstic.
Death Stranding 2 looks realistic despite there being robots, mask hands and 12fps puppets
 
imo gta6 is still looks worse. It portrays realistic world and it stilldoesn't look realstic.
Death Stranding 2 looks realistic despite there being robots, mask hands and 12fps puppets
I don’t understand this - GTA6 has always gone for a “heightened” look in its worlds even as it’s gotten more realistic. Definitely never appeared to be aiming for photorealistic in the way HB2 or DS2 are.
 

yamaci17

Member
Whats funny is that GTA6 is ALL cutscenes, and likely not even realtime or running on a PS5 like DS2. Its fine to compare but lets compare cutscene to cutscene, gameplay to gameplay.
i want to make another clarification, gta 6 is not all cutscenes. rockstar often uses in game captures. they just probably place cameras in certain places, like in the beach. it cannot be a cutscene, gta 5 trailer is full of stuff that do not exists as a cutscene in the game but stuff that can be recreated in game

0:10 run gta 5, put a camera there with mods or something, you will capture a similar video
0:33 not a cutscene
0:54 not a cutscene
1:03 not a cutscene

with a similar logic, i'm sure these scenes in gta 6 trailer are not cutscene but just captured in game with special camera angles;

0:20
0:21
0:27
0:32
0:33
1:05

and some more

i mean i never remember rockstar boasting with cutscene graphics



even this gta 4 trailer is full of actual in game shots. it is not a cinematic cutscene or something. it is just a camera touring around the places they want to show to player.

same as san andreas



what you see in GTA trailers is what u get really
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
Someone raised a good point in another topic, if fable looks EXACTLY like the trailer, it beat both hb2 and ds2.

I haven't seen anyone doubting that these 2 games are real and are gonna look like that, 3\4 of the forum was convinced that fable was an offline rendering, if that is not enough proof i don't know what is...
 

analog_future

Resident Crybaby
ehh something tells me u forgot about this



very quickly!

make a gif of 2:21-2:25 im sure it will look "oh myy"

this video has critical spoilers please people that dont want to get spoiler dont watch it or open it


lol the fuck are you talking about. 2:21-2:25 looks like nothing I'd get excited about if I was playing a PS4 game, let alone a current-gen game in 2024.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
ehh something tells me u forgot about this



very quickly!

make a gif of 2:21-2:25 im sure it will look "oh myy"

this video has critical spoilers please people that dont want to get spoiler dont watch it or open it

i havent gotten to that part in star wars yet so not going to click. but yeah, i raved about the desert area in that game. Especially when i went up a cliff and fought a bunch of enemies. the color of the sky in contrast with the red desert cliffs and the blue light sabers looked absolutely spectacular.

people here didnt appreciate the game as much.
 
Someone raised a good point in another topic, if fable looks EXACTLY like the trailer, it beat both hb2 and ds2.

I haven't seen anyone doubting that these 2 games are real and are gonna look like that, 3\4 of the forum was convinced that fable was an offline rendering, if that is not enough proof i don't know what is...
Fable is the ONLY Microsoft exclusive I’m eager to see. That shit looks very next Gen. Also has the writers behind arkham knight on it I think
 

Hunnybun

Member
imo gta6 is still looks worse. It portrays realistic world and it stilldoesn't look realstic.
Death Stranding 2 looks realistic despite there being robots, mask hands and 12fps puppets

I dunno, not sure it's that clearcut. The character models aren't photorealistic but the environments basically are. There are loads of scenes in that trailer that are getting pretty close to real life.

DS2 obviously looks great in cut scenes, but I couldn't care less about them, personally. I'm interested in games, not crap versions of movies.
 
Expecting an indie game using Unreal Engine to compete with one of the best proprietary engines in the biz, with a massive team of graphics engineers, is just delusional, but they did it to themselves... again. At the same time, graphics are dead to me as the sole reason to play a game
Same here. I stopped caring about graphics a long time ago. All I care about now is 60fps and above gameplay. That and mods are the sole reasons I invested in a high-end gaming PC. Not for visuals but mainly so that I don't have to compromise smooth gameplay and framerates in my games. If a game is boring, I don't care how good it looks, I won't play it.
 
A lot of fighting about Death Stranding 2, Hellblade 2 and GTAVI but nobody is talking about how Silent Hill 2 was downgraded. The announcement trailer made it look like one of the best UE5 games but in the new trailer it looks worse than RE4. Hopefully the trailer was just bad captured or an old build but if it's representative of the actual game it will be a massive disappointment.
 
Someone raised a good point in another topic, if fable looks EXACTLY like the trailer, it beat both hb2 and ds2.

I haven't seen anyone doubting that these 2 games are real and are gonna look like that, 3\4 of the forum was convinced that fable was an offline rendering, if that is not enough proof i don't know what is...

Yeah man, if Fable ends up looking like that trailer it will certainly be up there with the best of the best.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
imo gta6 is still looks worse. It portrays realistic world and it stilldoesn't look realstic.
Death Stranding 2 looks realistic despite there being robots, mask hands and 12fps puppets
The sea shot looks more photorealistic than anything showed in ds2 tbh.

And these console don't have enough rendering power to have sam porter details for 7948565798573495837349857349573945 npcs with advanced ia and physics in a fully interactible world, but they still manage to have much better hairs tech than ds2 that has like 3-4 characters in a scene tops.

We are so far from that achievement, that it's usually one of the examples i post to counter the diminishing returns bullshit narrative.

I know people are pissing their pants for the scene with the water or the mountain breaking, but they are literally 2 sec scenes, for what we know, those are all scripted moments, so not more impressive than the rest of other games with setpieces and scripted destruction like ff16 or sp2 or slimy's favourites.

If i can throw dynamite in a mountain and cause real time destruction then we can talk about "advanced physics".

I already have to deal with dogma 2 fanboys making wild assumptions after seeing the fucking rathalos water nest trap thinking that is remotely impressive.
 
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CGNoire

Member
I guess we are seeing it differently, to me its clear that it looked PS4.5 in the lighting department during gameplay. I wouldn't compare this strictly to HFW as each game uses a different lighting technique with different pros/cons and fall under certain scale.

Just compare it to the lighting in AVATAR and AW2, the difference is clear as day. Not just in lighting but the object variance and density. DS2 looks to have nice big rocks with questionable texture quality and hit and miss finer details (aka micro detail). Compared to Avatar, UE5 demos, etc.

Even you pointed out the variety and density in Avatar. Can you say the same about DS2?


With all due respect its not even in the same universe. Its NOT even close.
You need to rewatch the Rebirth Video in 4k and not just compare GIFs (which butchers all details).



I'm looking at HB2 and AW2 (during gameplay).
Its quite clear that HB2 character looks exactly identical in cutscene as it does in gameplay (AW2 is also similar like that).

DS2 is clearly not, there's a huge gap between the cutscene character and the gameplay character based on what they showed.
So no i won't put it in a lineup with HB2 character. Because not only does HB2 look more photorealistic (sometimes even tricking your brain), It holds that same look in gameplay. DS2 loses on both accounts.

Im with you man especially after watching it on the big screen the disparity between cutscenes and gameplay is massive in DS2. People getting tricked by cutscenes again. And yes we still havdnt hit the rebirth demo yet.
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
I must be an alien because that particular shot look pretty meh to me, the eyes looks off and kinda fake, the materials on the armour look whatever and the skin look too shiny and clean, darktide has better skin tech than that example.

Maybe it's just the low res, i haven't really watched the last hb2 trailer, just jumping some scenes on the phone, maybe i should watch it on the oled.
 
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CGNoire

Member
id say DS2's gameplay is very comparable.
To rebirth? With those blurry ass textures and its often soupy ass geomety fuck no it aint. Rebirth still isnt matched and Im not exactly sure why?

The camera js too far away to make out texture detail in the DS2 gameplay shots but the geometry still significantly short of rebirth. I think some of you all are projecting some of that cutscene quality through the heavy DOF used during gameplay. Im guilty of the same the first time I saw Outlaws.
 

CGNoire

Member
we dont know for sure if its running on the PS5 or is realtime. Thats all i am saying. Its all cutscenes too. DS specifically mentioned that the game was running realtime on PS5, Rockstar didnt.

DF found that some of the instagram shots might have even been prerendered but they couldnt say for sure.
Just for clarity all the games at the show said "captured on PS5" none of them outright stated realtime.
 

Esppiral

Member
Ds2 has show amazing character models during cutscenes but the stages are just barren, don't know how that qualyfies as amazing graphics
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
I mean, the games are very close, whoever act like one is clearly superior is also a child.

At best ds2 is superior because it looks as good or almost as good while being open world, but if that would be the parameter of choice, hfw should still be considered the game with the best graphic because it doesn't look much worse than ds2 while being way more busy on screen at any given time (and with a way larger cast)
 
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alloush

Member
Im with you man especially after watching it on the big screen the disparity between cutscenes and gameplay is massive in DS2. People getting tricked by cutscenes again. And yes we still havdnt hit the rebirth demo yet.
This is the problem. We are victims of Devs trickeries, they show us great looking cutscenes and then sell us short on gameplay graphics. The disparity between cutscenes and gameplay graphics has become too big to the point we set unrealistic expectations for gameplay graphics just for us to be left disappointed; we are literally setting ourselves up for disappointment. And whilst it is the Devs' devious actions that is causing this, it is on us for still believing their lying asses. Fool me once!

And trust me, this could keep going on and on even on next gen consoles and next next gen consoles, while graphics during gameplay will do get better with more advanced tech so will the cutscenes. We could literally get a game with The Matrix demo graphics next gen but if it is going to have gorgeous looking cutscenes indistinguishable from the real thing we will shit on that game's graphics even though the graphics would be actually hella good; I mean they are Matrix Demo level of graphics, but trust me we would still shit on it if it were paired with Hollywood level of cutscenes lol.

By the way, I am not saying DS2 looks bad or bang average, far from it, it actually looks hella good but the level of graphics on the cutscenes kinda sold the game's graphics short during gameplay.
 

CGNoire

Member
I mean, the games are very close, whoever act like one is clearly superior is also a child.

At best ds2 is superior because it looks as good or almost as good while being open world, but if that would be the parameter of choice, hfw should still be considered the game with the best graphic because it doesn't look much worse than ds2 while being way more busy on screen at any given time (and with a way larger cast)
Im not sure DS as a series deserve to be called open world with all that implys to gamers. Its just one character who can walk in 8 directions triggering different world cells to load when approached. Its just old school streaming tech that was only impressive 2 decades ago. No seamless interiors, no crowds, no daily routine simulations, no insides at all just old fashion load the one cell the character occupies and the 8 surronding ones at medium detail....the just rinse and repeat. Shits not impressive at all and hasnt been for an eternity now.
 
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CGNoire

Member
And whilst it is the Devs' devious actions that is causing this, it is on us for still believing their lying asses. Fool me once!
Nah! The act of projecting high detail from picture element onto others is a technique thats been used highly effectively by artisfs since the rennisance. Believe it or not especially when it comes to first impressions its not so easy to dodge even if yor well aware of it since it based on an automated process of the brain. The blame is 100% on the ad departments for purposely making trailers this way with the willfull intention on triggering this. This gen in particular its been adopted by all the top devs.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
Im not sure DS as a series deserve to be called open world with all that implys to gamers. Its just one character who can walk in 8 directions triggering different world cells to load when approached. Its just old school streaming tech that was only impressive 2 decades ago. No seamless interiors, no crowds, no daily routine simulations, no insides at all just old fashion load the one cell the character occupies and the 8 surronding ones at medium detail....the just rinse and repeat. Shits not impressive at all and hasnt been for an eternity now.
I still consider it an open world at the end of the day.

btw, perfect description for ds2 trailer

929.jpg
 

hlm666

Member
Im sure Alex will find Global Illumination flaws in the way lighting propagates or doesnt propagate and try and ruin it for everyone.
Don't know about alex but it's amusing no one here is saying the roof is too dark or the sides should be lit up more and needs more bounces to look right.
 
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