Well, it is true that rendering some elements to a lower resolution render target is a perfectly normal and well-recommended practice.
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Guerrilla Games: Regarding Killzone Shadow Fall and 1080p
- Thread starter nbnt
- Start date
Well, it is true that rendering some elements to a lower resolution render target is a perfectly normal and well-recommended practice.
HassanJamal
Member
Surprisingly, I kinda get the techno jumbo in this. So GG created a next gen(or current gen) technique of a sort dynamic resolution....thing. Im assuming like GC's Mercenary on vita.
Are there comparison shots somewhere?
I think this is a best case scenario of this technique:
Here's a shot taken while rotating the camera at a medium steady rate (taken from a capture card rather than using the built-in sharing feature).
Considering the technique being used, I'm impressed with how artifact free the image appears in motion. From what I can see, this type of rendering has the most noticeable impact on thin objects (such as fences) but even then it simply looks as if it is part of the camera blur.
Here's the same area taken with maximum camera rotation speed. Motion blur is in full effect. If you look at the metal flooring you can see increased aliasing with larger steps but the image still looks good. Without the excellent motion blur it would certainly be more obvious.
I'd love to know just how many resources this technique frees up. It could be a real alternative to traditional rendering that would allow for a higher framerate without the massive loss in image quality associated with lowering overall resolution (which really only looks bad as a result of scaling).
Also, just for fun, here's a shot with the PS4 set to output at 720p. The system is downscaling the image so jaggies are minimized compared to what you'd get with a traditional 720p image. When blown up to 1080p it looks dramatically worse than the 960x1080 method they used.
Click on the images to see them at full resolution.
Which it absolutely is. The game outputs a full 1920x1080 pixel progressive image. Ergo, its 1080p native. Its another thing when 280 vertical lines are filled with black. But technically speaking, its native 1080p.
I find it interesting how complex modern rendering techniques make box ticking more and more irrelevant, their point about other parts of the pipeline not being rendered native rings particularly true and is quite common.
If someone ever got close to perfecting the 30>60fps interpolation that Lucas Arts tech lead was investigating I'm not sure what framerate I would describe the game as being, despite the fact that it would clearly not be rendering every frame in the traditional sense.
The future is nuts.
Indeed and I'm glad they did.
Not the Order again.
Is there any console game that actually does native 1080p where we take native as being 1080p throughout the pipeline? Ive always just thought native meant its not scaled in any way but then all we are generally used to is upscaling, this technique seems to be new(ish?)...
ps3ud0 8)
ps3ud0 8)
Mr_Appleby
Member
oh great, another thing for digital foundry to pretend to understand while not really having any idea of what they're talking about at all.
that is some mad shit GG, nice work.
I'm not blaming The Order devs. since they are honest to us, so this is fine.
But I'm blaming GG for not telling the truth about their game, they got caught so now they tying to explain us what their definition of 1080p is ? seriously ... ?
GHG
Member
There's nothing lazy about this technique. Its far easier to just render at a lower resolution and call it a day.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Gaf did a pretty good job explaining it in the other thread.
They didn't imply 1920x1080, they said the MP runs at 1080p which it technically does. It's the 1920(i) part that wasn't disclosed.
Wildarmsjecht
Member
This was a damn good read. I actually managed to understand it. I think console launch time limits made this a necessity and it certainly looks like one of the best launch games out there, so I have faith that their next game will have this technique utilized even better or maybe not even necessarily.
I'm glad they found a way to give amazing IQ so early in the gen with a few takeaways. They could've went with 720 or 900 and blamed it on "new HW blues", but they def tried to give s proper next gen look. And it worked.
Good job GG.
I'm glad they found a way to give amazing IQ so early in the gen with a few takeaways. They could've went with 720 or 900 and blamed it on "new HW blues", but they def tried to give s proper next gen look. And it worked.
Good job GG.
According to my understanding based on what I've read they didn't get caught.
They shared what they were doing with Digital Foundry who decided to wait until a few days ago to share it with their readership.
:uglyclap:
so are all XBO games 1080p native because the scaler generates a full 1920x1080 pixel progressive image.
:facepalm:
Hmm not sure I agree with this, I think they invented a new technique and there are no guidelines that go with that. As they said we still call many games native despite significant parts of the image being rendered at far below native res.
I guess the degree to which you can call it native is based on how much IQ is lost, and in that sense they are not 100% but they are way way closer than if you were to perform a typical upscale.
No this isn't a dynamic resolution/scaling technique like Mercenary.
gundamkyoukai
Member
They were some pics in the other thread that dark10x did a comparison with .
Also normal upscaling i see for some x box games this method look like it could be better for the amount of pixels they rendering for . eg COD .
GameSeeker
Member
Kudos to Guerrilla Games for explaining what they are doing!
GG clearly innovated in terms of technology - I think this is the first next-gen game we have seen using this method. I'm sure there will be long arguments over whether this is true 1080p, but a key metric should always be how good is the visual fidelity and framerate. As I always say, beauty is the eyes of the beholder. To my eyes, this technique looks better than most of the 720p, 792p, 900p, etc. games scaled to 1080p. GG didn't quite hit the solid 60fps they were looking for with technique, but given launch game constraints, it's much better than the 30fps they would have delivered without this technique.
GG clearly innovated in terms of technology - I think this is the first next-gen game we have seen using this method. I'm sure there will be long arguments over whether this is true 1080p, but a key metric should always be how good is the visual fidelity and framerate. As I always say, beauty is the eyes of the beholder. To my eyes, this technique looks better than most of the 720p, 792p, 900p, etc. games scaled to 1080p. GG didn't quite hit the solid 60fps they were looking for with technique, but given launch game constraints, it's much better than the 30fps they would have delivered without this technique.
Dragon1893
Member
That's not quite correct. They render a 960x1080 frame and then get the rest of the pixels from the previous 2 frames by predicting where those pixels will be in the current frame.
I think you'll agree with me that when we're told "native 1080p" we assume a full 1920x1080p is being rendered for each frame. You can argue that this technique fits the definition but you can't blame people for assuming that it was standard 1080p.
It's actually triple-buffered based on the explanation.
"...you could argue we gave you 3240 ... of vertical resolution, since Killzone Shadow Fall uses not one, but three frame buffers ..."
fluffydelusions
Member
EDIT: wrong thread lol
Canis lupus
Member
You dont get what I'm saying.
Ever watched a Blu-Ray in 2,40:1 ratio? You have black bars on a 16:9 display. Same is with the order. The game sends a full native 1080p image out - 1920x1080 pixels. Like the movie, 280 vertical lines of pixels show now information because of the aspect ratio.
All of your non full HD xbone games have a de facto lower native res. So they have to be upscaled with interpolation to fill the screen.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Having 1080 pixels vertically is not native in any way you wanna spin it if the horizontal pixels are not 1920, it's like saying for example that Vanquish (1024*720), Dark Souls (1024*720) & Black Ops 2 (880*720) are now magically native 720p when they are nowhere near the pixel density of a native 720p framebuffer (1280*720 = 921.600, 1024*720 = 737.280, 880*720 = 633.600).
MikeJAMoran
Member
It's hilarious how people go bonkers over this. What Guerrilla is doing is actually an ingenuous, really advanced method of achieving the same goal. I mean nobody actually noticed it wasn't "native" for months, did they?
The Order aspect ratio debate incoming.
Abandon thread. Abandon thread!
Abandon thread. Abandon thread!
Lots of people noticed something was off. It just couldn't be pin-pointed what was going on, because this method has never been seen before.
jacksepticeye
Member
Neat!
Yes, and people are already aware of most of those techniques. No one knew what was going on with KZ:SF and this clarification is most welcome.
You act like people haven't always been interested to know when the resolution of particles or aa is being dropped to maintain framerate online.
Before the EG article they said SP and MP is native 1080p.
But this depends of what they define/understand by saying 1080p, and at least the "1080p" form the SP is not the same line the "1080p" form the MP in Killzone.
So they lied, or said "1080p" to two different things
"deal with it"
Led_Zeppelin
Member
That run at 1080p doesn't mean that it is rendered at 1080p natively. You need to check word by word since it is a PR speech. They aren't being misleading now, since they actually marked the difference between their new technique and what it is considered to be native 1080p, though his definition of being native 1080p is exactly what people think is native 1080p (The rendering of frames without an upscale and the output being 1080p).
We are arguing semantics now, I am glad that Guerrilla is being open with this and stop being misleading about their new technique, now we can argue if it is better than upscaling 720p to 1080p or what not.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
A good explanation and a genuinely impressive solution for when games need a little extra to reach a desires fps without simply lowering the internal resolution and killing the image quality.
All console gamers should be excited by this tech if they can find their way past the dick swinging contests.
All console gamers should be excited by this tech if they can find their way past the dick swinging contests.
Credits go to Dark and Norml
First image is a normal capture vs 2nd image which is PS4 set to 720p and upscaled. Of course, since the image is downscaled it's not very respresentative of a native 720p render.
7DollarHagane
Banned
I don't care about 1080p. The multiplayer was blurry and difficult to focus on moving objects when sitting close on a smaller monitor.
Give us a 720p option if this is the only way to do 1080p.
Give us a 720p option if this is the only way to do 1080p.
I already said that I think this isn't native 1080p and that they are wrong to have insinuated it.Before the EG article they said SP and MP is native 1080p.
But this depends of what they define/understand by saying 1080p, and at least the "1080p" form the SP is not the same line the "1080p" form the MP in Killzone.
So they lied, or said "1080p" to two different things
"deal with it"
I merely countered your statement that they got caught lying. Caught after explaining their method to the enthusiast console graphics outlet seems rather strange. Maybe you should say they "came clean in advance."
No.
They use the buffered 1080p frame to apply post AA.
The end result is no more true native 1080p as we've come to expect it than 1080i on an HDCRT. They've employed a very clever technique that improves motion resolution (usually) while keeping the frame rate up. Its a smart compromise.
Dead Man Typing
Member
This is a perfectly worded statement. "Investment"
Am I correct in understanding that the reason Digital Foundry failed to detect this technique is because in screenshot form the game produces a full 1920x1080 image with individual pixels? So conventional pixel counting can't tell the difference between this technique and 1080p. It obviously looks different in motion.
I wonder how people worked out that it was using this "temporal reprojection".
That's great GG.
Now how about fixing the game breaking bug that won't let me get past the second level of Shadow Fall without my guy
I beat the level. I'm not doing it again because I might have done something out of order.
Now how about fixing the game breaking bug that won't let me get past the second level of Shadow Fall without my guy
falling out of the transport after blowing up the bridge and watching the cutscene of the statue come crashing down?
Terbinator
Member
I think the main problem with the tech is that it doesn't hit the FPS the trade-off was made for(and as a result looks worse?).